France-Germany-Spain Future Combat Air System (FCAS/SCAF/FSAC)

Deltafan

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
May 8, 2006
Messages
1,336
Reaction score
1,147

Deltafan

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
May 8, 2006
Messages
1,336
Reaction score
1,147
Only for the "new" design (whose article does not explain where it came from)


Design already used in this article by the same media:

 

Deino

Moderator
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2006
Messages
3,172
Reaction score
1,727

Archibald

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
8,988
Reaction score
8,616
Both Rafale and Typhoon were ten or even twelve years late, related to the original schedules, so there is still some margin...
 

TomcatViP

Hellcat
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
5,878
Reaction score
5,724
French DGA (gov. R&D) refines its Digital engineering process in turbines design:


turenne-2_article_demi_colonne.jpg


Here a test campaign with thermal paint said to confirm Simulation data for HPT. Test engine was an M88.
 
Last edited:

jsport

what do you know about surfing Major? you're from-
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Messages
4,567
Reaction score
2,131

Grey Havoc

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
17,454
Reaction score
7,310
French defence victory could mean a defeat for European co-operation (ft.com, registration or subscription may be required)

There were two reasons for France’s defence industry to celebrate when the United Arab Emirates agreed to buy 80 Rafale fighters from Dassault Aviation last month. First, it was sweet revenge for the humiliation last autumn when Australia walked away from a submarine deal in favour of an alliance with the US. There must have been a frisson of satisfaction in Paris when Abu Dhabi, days after agreeing to buy the French fighter, suspended talks with the US on the purchase of Lockheed Martin’s F-35. Second, the UAE’s order — worth an estimated €14bn — will guarantee production of the Rafale through to 2031, as well as work for more than 400 French companies in the supply chain. It will also help fund France’s investment in future upgrades to the Rafale, which is now expected to be in service through the 2050s. Yet, while the deal has a lot going for it from a French perspective, it risks destabilising Europe’s efforts at defence collaboration. For it strengthens Dassault’s hand in the still-troublesome negotiations with Airbus’s German-based defence division over Europe’s proposed Future Combat Air System (FCAS). The last time Dassault — and by extension the French defence ministry — felt it wasn’t getting what it needed from a European fighter programme, it walked away. The result was Dassault’s Rafale. Launched in 2017 by former German chancellor Angela Merkel and French president Emmanuel Macron, FCAS was an overtly political project. It showed both countries’ determination to bolster Europe’s sovereign military capability after Britain’s exit from the EU. In 2019, Spain joined the programme. The problems began when politicians handed it to industry. From the start, it was marked by squabbling over technology sharing and leadership of the most critical parts of the programme. The fighting was exacerbated by fundamentally different ideas of what collaboration meant. “French collaboration is making sure you get the most effective output,” generally under French leadership, says one European defence executive. “In Germany, it is partly about the best athlete, but also about industrial workshare.” The project also forced together two bitter rivals — Dassault and Airbus Defence and Space. But last year it seemed Europe’s political ambitions had gained the upper hand. A deal on basic principles was struck and industrial agreements were reached on six of the project’s seven pillars, spanning manned and unmanned aircraft, space and terrestrial communications, cutting-edge stealth technologies, artificial intelligence and more. But divisions remain on the seventh pillar — the next-generation fighter jet itself — and there is no sign of imminent compromise. Both sides have logical reasons for digging in their heels. Dassault, standard bearer of France’s sovereignty in combat aircraft, argues it needs to develop and manage the crucial flight-control system itself, for example. But Germany understandably expects its industry to have access to the technology, having pledged billions for the project. It is in this context that the UAE’s Rafale deal could tilt the balance, argues Francis Tusa, consultant and editor of Defence Analysis newsletter. “It has changed the equation,” he says. “France no longer needs Germany. The profits they get from the UAE deal will finance upgrades to Rafale.” “The days for the project are numbered unless the Germans understand where they are in the pecking order,” Tusa adds. “They are not equals in industrial capability.” Meanwhile, the new German government’s plans to codify into law the country’s tougher restrictions on arms exports — potentially limiting them to just Nato and the EU — is adding to tensions. Such constraints on exports “would be a deal killer”, said one French defence executive. It would be a significant blow to Europe’s defence ambitions if France chose to walk away again from a European fighter. It would be a failure, too, for Macron, who has prioritised collaboration during France’s presidency of the EU. But presidential elections are looming in April and the Dassault family does not just control a key French defence company. It owns the politically influential Le Figaro newspaper. Ultimately, while only politicians on both sides can resolve the stand off, that may have to wait until France goes to the polls. But the longer the stalemate continues, the greater the risk for Europe that its latest test case of co-operation begins to fall apart. peggy.hollinger@ft.com
 

Archibald

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
8,988
Reaction score
8,616
This conveniently forgets that sooner or later Rafale will need a successor, 100% stealth. Whether France can carry the financial burden alone, remains to be seen.
But if the Germans are not going, then we will drag the Spanish along us...
 

Hood

ACCESS: Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2006
Messages
3,267
Reaction score
4,499
I don't really buy all this Paris Vs Berlin stuff.

Last time I looked SOGEPA (i.e. the French state) held 11.1% of the shares in Airbus. Daimler sold its share and the only German shareholding seems to be GZBV which is majority owned by KfW Bankengruppe rather than German state funding. Its true the Defence and Space division is headquartered in Germany but its not exclusively a German construct.
Why would "Paris" want to cripple the profitability of an organisation it owns 11.1% of and which upholds France's commercial and rotary aircraft sector?

I think there has been too much conflating of "Paris" and "Berlin" as meaning "Dassault" and "Airbus" with politicians on both sides using the chance to do some lobbying and interfere and both companies conveniently using the politicians to air all the dirty laundry in public on their behalf.
Tulsa seems to think Airbus is a modern day Messerschmitt AG the way he frames it, "The days for the project are numbered unless the Germans understand where they are in the pecking order,” perhaps he thinks every time the US Armed Forces buy a BAE Systems product they are buying British and improving the UK's standing in the pecking order?

It's time to either a) let the companies get on and negotiate or b) find other partners who they can work with to meet whatever national defence requirements exist.
 

helmutkohl

ACCESS: Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
1,285
Reaction score
2,215

Hood

ACCESS: Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2006
Messages
3,267
Reaction score
4,499
The head of Dassault Aviation SA on Wednesday warned talks with the German arm of Airbus SE have been bogged down by a power struggle over “division of labor” that could threaten the project.

“We still have difficulties with Airbus,” Dassault Chief Executive Officer Eric Trappier said at a press conference in Paris. “It’s not always easy to negotiate with the Germans.”

Well maybe the "French" arm of Airbus should have a word with the "German" arm - or am I'm wrong that a Frenchman is CEO of Airbus SE? Or maybe there are no French interests in the Airbus Military & Space Division?

I get the impression that even if the Airbus Military & Space Division was headquartered in Toulouse, Dassault would hate Airbus being involved.

And I still don't rule out Dassault being brought out by Airbus by 2040...
 

Archibald

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
8,988
Reaction score
8,616
And I still don't rule out Dassault being brought out by Airbus by 2040...
Sure, this will happen... the day Hell freeze over, to -270°C.

Dassault has always mustered political power NEVER, EVER to be bought by a bigger fish. That's part of their DNA a) never grow too big b) stay a family and trusted partner business and c) never ever be merged or taken over by an aerospace heavyweight.
That's a give and take business: I'm the one and only able to make something like Rafale, 100% French or pretty close; if you don't want to screw that capability (even if damn expensive) then leave me alone.

In the 1980's were atempts by the French state to try and take parts (shares ?) into Dassault to merge them into Aérospatiale or something else: they were repealed.

At the time Rafale didn't sold abroad such "threats" returned, but now that it gotten out its misery... no way again.
 

helmutkohl

ACCESS: Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
1,285
Reaction score
2,215
yep like I've said, France should just move on from Airbus. Overall Germany has some very different foreign policy orientations than France (the UK is far more similar in that regard) which conflicts with France's foreign policy goals.
 

UpForce

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Feb 5, 2011
Messages
373
Reaction score
338
yep like I've said, France should just move on from Airbus. Overall Germany has some very different foreign policy orientations than France (the UK is far more similar in that regard) which conflicts with France's foreign policy goals.

The article's premise was somewhat cynical, though, especially as Putin's ever more unrelenting pressure on institutions involving European nations (EU, NATO, obviously) has put the focus squarely back on the cohesive qualities and capabilities of the otherwise diverse continent. It's also another matter whether a large export market is even intended for FCAS or whether it's seen as such a unique capability that it will be treated more like an F-22 of its time?

The downsides of proliferation into, let's say, less democratically attuned environments has somewhat come into question now - a difficult question as spheres of influence in such circumstances do tend to devolve into ever more direct projections of destructive power. Aboulafia remembers France's export successes well; less in focus are the instances where France and her allies had to resort to force against their own technology, or divulge radar capabilities in minute detail such as during the Desert Storm, for example.

A creative solution, of course, would be to have different national versions of the thing wherein different export restrictions might apply. Somewhat disingenuous of course and I certainly can't even tell whether that would be even possible.
 

TomcatViP

Hellcat
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
5,878
Reaction score
5,724
@UpForce : They obviously need two version IMO. As said earlier it would be a disaster to neglect the M2K segment for another 40 years.

They should focus on a rapid design in that lower class and extend their R&D for a massive, Mirage IV class sophisticated penetrator. The French Navy will be as much served with both.

With the new engines technology, there are plausible expectations that they could have something wih the Rafale range inside the M2K operational weight. There would be then operational coherence for all Rafale users, something that will maxout the momentum for early market penetration. That would drive down cost. This would probably restrict cost growths during the larger design phase (see how F-35 tech has been a source for more advanced design in the US).
 
Last edited:

Hood

ACCESS: Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2006
Messages
3,267
Reaction score
4,499
They will flog it to the usual Middle East suspects...
And let's face it its taken 20 years for Rafale to obtain export successes. So by that token Dassault might be looking at a pay off around 2060... when 6th Gen tech is old school compared to 7.5th Gen and good deals can be made and older AdA FCAS sold off second hand.
Well Berlin's arms dealing scruples still exist by 2040? Who knows, governments comes and go.

Not sure how BAE is going to flog Tempests though, every time they try and flog Typhoons the anti-corruption squad comes calling. Guess Dassault must be more subtle operators...

I bet Berlin is kicking itself, had it not let DASA be subsumed into Airbus they might have picked up BAe or Leonardo's F-35 assembly work for Europe and been sitting on a goldmine with the Luftwaffe having a row of F-35s too.
 

Archibald

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
8,988
Reaction score
8,616
Said it before, but France should do it with Spain alone. If they only buy a few F-35B for their big amphib BUT no F-35A for the Eda then why not ? their present is Typhoon, but what next ?
 

TomcatViP

Hellcat
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
5,878
Reaction score
5,724
I am absolutely certain that there is room for both airframe (F-35 and early FCAS). Just like Thunderjets or Super Sabre weren't obstacles for the Ouragans and Super Mystere but a source of inspiration and technological knowledge. It took 4 generations for the USAF expectations to mature into an affordable, operationalable stealth fighter jet. It won't be a milk run to do the same in a single shot.
 
Last edited:

shin_getter

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
Jun 1, 2019
Messages
734
Reaction score
832

TomcatViP

Hellcat
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
5,878
Reaction score
5,724
More hurdles in the line:


I think Dassault's CEO is wrongly assessing the situation regarding the F-35. Let's sum it up:

- F-35 will alleviate the need for FCAS to both have top dynamic performances and carry heavy loads (7+t).
- With a smaller structural mass, less wet surface, it will be easier for FCAS to reach a level of performances in line with the top performers, even with somewhat weaker engines, what is reasonably to be expected (the M2K strategy).
- The Naval version will be easier to develop with lighter bring back requirements, easing design and be a benefit to footprint and performances.
- With a nimbler profile, stealth goals will be much easier to achieve
- cost increase will be kept on hand
- The program could be phased in successive versions, similarly to the F-15 Eagle: Air dominance, Interdiction, Reliability (A/C-> E->EX-EagleII), leading to higher and longer term profits for the industry.
 
Last edited:

Trident

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
May 8, 2006
Messages
1,428
Reaction score
1,088
Agree, I always thought there objectively was room for both. Dassault/France's reflexive opposition to the F-35A as a very competent (and most importantly, near-term!) replacement for the German Tornado fleet seems unnecessary and misguided. On the other hand, I do suspect the overall management and health of the FCAS project would benefit from the leadership of Dassault, so hopefully a deal can be struck.
 

Hood

ACCESS: Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2006
Messages
3,267
Reaction score
4,499
Agreed, F-35 is a red herring, the Luftwaffe could have them within five years, they cant' hang on until 2040+.
But on the other hand I can see Dassault's frustration, Airbus has never built a fighter so how could they lead? (no EFA doesn't really count)
 

TomcatViP

Hellcat
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
5,878
Reaction score
5,724

TomcatViP

Hellcat
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
5,878
Reaction score
5,724
More on the subject. Notice how the French gov isn't in anyway tempering Dassault threats.

(Dassault'S CEO) :"Le plan B, vous le verrez le jour où on l'annoncera. Pour l'instant, je le garde pour moi. Une industrie responsable doit toujours avoir un plan B. Ce n'est pas une menace, c'est une réalité", répond Éric Trappier indiquant qu'il pourrait se faire "avec d'autres partenaires ou sur d'autres sujets. On a des plans B!".
-------//////----------/////---------////------------

"(My) Plan B, you will see it the day we announce it. For now, I keep it to myself. Any responsible industry must always have a plan B. It's not a threat, it's a reality “, replies Éric Trappier indicating that it could be done “with other partners or on other subjects. We have B plans!”.

What seems to be is a partnership already signed with one Dassault-Aviation customer (no indications yet that this involves more than two parties). For that, I would guess that a large order will in effect hide all the R&D expenses (I don't see Mr Trappier speaking about it if the agreements was beyond industry level). We know that Dassault-Aviation has been capable to operate relatively undercover with a significant effectiveness in the past in similar partnership. But once again, none of this would have been possible without a full agreement of the French gov... As of today and with a government to government signed contract (if there is any of those contracts left that is not gov2gov nowadays in France )


Edit:
It just occurred to me writing the above that Dassault could just be bluffing. You'd never know!
 
Last edited:

Archibald

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
8,988
Reaction score
8,616

le Scaf est-il un mirage​

Is the joke unintentional, or just lame ?
Mystère ;)
As they say at Dassault "Toujours voir le Falcon à moitié plein, plutôt que moitié vide..." (Baduuum, tsss !)

Ouragans, Mystere, Super Mystere, Mirage, Mirage, Re-Mirage, Rafale and, today, Plan B.
I wonder in the hypothetical case that Dassault manages to steal some partners to the Brits, if someone would dare to call it, Plan Q...

With James Bond the girls often have "plans culs"... rather than plan Q. Shaggadelic, yeah baby !
 

Similar threads

Top