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France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet

Sundog

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Janes report on FCAS.

What I found most interesting, at least in this video, is that it uses boom refueling. That's a first for a European design, isn't it?

FCAS
 

muttbutt

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sienar said:
Is the first pic new?
Slight OT, but does anyone have an idea what that thing is on the first image, below the satellite and to the left of the Typhoon?

(Yes I know it could be just some generic insert AC here) :)
 

Sundog

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muttbutt said:
Slight OT, but does anyone have an idea what that thing is on the first image, below the satellite and to the left of the Typhoon?

(Yes I know it could be just some generic insert AC here) :)
It's the same aircraft shown above the FCAS; it's an unmanned combat vehicle that is designed to work in concert with the FCAS and be controlled by the FCAS.
 

Dragon029

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The airliner to the left of the Typhoon appears to be an Airbus MRTT; I think the horizontal white line just above the fuselage is a refueling hose coming from the drogue pod on the right wing.
 

muttbutt

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I don't know...it looks pretty weird when you zoom in on it. But I'm not an aircraft guy so I'll take your word for it.
 

flateric

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sienar said:
Is the first pic new?
yes, from the International Fighter Conference 2018, that caption clearly says
there were only murky shots from the screen before
 

flateric

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Dragon029 said:
The airliner to the left of the Typhoon appears to be an Airbus MRTT; I think the horizontal white line just above the fuselage is a refueling hose coming from the drogue pod on the right wing.
exactly so
 

muttbutt

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Thanks, that cleared it up...it just looked weird to me half cut off.. ???
 

Deltafan

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Some news about the SCAF :

https://therestlesstechnophile.com/2019/01/31/presentation-of-the-future-combat-air-system-by-its-designers/
 

muttbutt

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L'Espagne rejoindra officiellement le programme SCAF (Système de combat aérien du futur) à la mi-février. La ministre espagnole de la Défense avait annoncé son souhait de coopérer avec la France ...
Spanish MOD has confirmed they are joining...
 

muttbutt

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PARIS --- France and Germany on Jan. 31 awarded a two-year, 65-million euro contract to Airbus Defence and Space and Dassault Aviation to define the general architecture, and the industrial organization, of their next-generation combat aircraft, according to senior French officials.

The contract kicks off work on the new combat system, known in France as the Système de Combat Aérien Futur (SCAF) and in English as the Future Combat Air System (FCAS), and was awarded by France’s defense procurement agency, DGA, acting on behalf of both governments, to Airbus and Dassault as co-contractors. Its 65-million euro cost is split between both countries on a 50-50 basis.

The award will be officially announced on Wednesday Feb. 6 in Gennevilliers, near Paris, when French Armed Forces Minister Florence Parly and her German counterpart, Ursula von der Leyen, will together visit a Safran plant and witness the signing of a Letter of Intent between Safran and MTU Aero Engines on the SCAF program. The ministers will also visit the PFX research center where Safran is developing high-technology blades for advanced turbines.

More at the linky link
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/feature/199660/airbus%2C-dassault-jointly-awarded-two_year-scaf-%C2%A7-fcas-architecture-study.html
 

TomcatViP

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In fact, their co-contractor status is limited to the architecture study, and does not modify the leadership roles: France will lead the New-Generation Fighter project as well as the Next-Generation Weapon System of which it is a component, with Dassault as industrial leader, and Airbus as junior partner.
65M$ Tells you that very nothing was done. And now that any trace of competition is off the board and irrational allotment of project shares dominates, it would be crazy for any outside investor... to invest a dime.
This has all the signs to point toward a very costly story.
 

galgot

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TomcatViP said:
In fact, their co-contractor status is limited to the architecture study, and does not modify the leadership roles: France will lead the New-Generation Fighter project as well as the Next-Generation Weapon System of which it is a component, with Dassault as industrial leader, and Airbus as junior partner.
65M$ Tells you that very nothing was done. And now that any trace of competition is off the board and irrational allotment of project shares dominates, it would be crazy for any outside investor... to invest a dime.
This has all the signs to point toward a very costly story.
::)
 

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Sintra

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TomcatViP said:
In fact, their co-contractor status is limited to the architecture study, and does not modify the leadership roles: France will lead the New-Generation Fighter project as well as the Next-Generation Weapon System of which it is a component, with Dassault as industrial leader, and Airbus as junior partner.
65M$ Tells you that very nothing was done. And now that any trace of competition is off the board and irrational allotment of project shares dominates, it would be crazy for any outside investor... to invest a dime.
This has all the signs to point toward a very costly story.
::)

Where´s the "Facepam" smiley?
 

TomcatViP

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galgot said:
TomcatViP said:
is that what you wear with your penis-pump?
Classy…Have I touched something ? Tss tss tss…
Seems you are right where you like to be. Tell me Mr TseTse, in what is your flagellation pants related to the Future Franco-German (and more) airplane?
 

galgot

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Indeed, sorry, it’s more related to you and your brilliant comments.
You’re my favorite poster here.
 

red admiral

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Spending 60m EUR over two years hardly a sign of great commitment. It won't even buy much paper.
 

Hood

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It does seem a small amount, compared to even the initial Anglo-French FCAS commitment which saw the UK allocate £120M as its share for the joint study phase. But this Dassault-Airbus contract isn't even at that stage yet, its simply a contract to define what the SCAF will be, what elements are needed and who is going to do what. This is top-level industrial level work, before anyone draws up any detailed specifications or even thinks about hardware. I'm not sure it signals a political reticence towards the project, it is just very early days in a 20 year development programme.
 

Deltafan

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Hi...

In this article of La Tribune (In French, sorry) we learn too that 115 millions € are foreseen, from France to Safran, for the engine of the SCAF...

https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-finance/industrie/aeronautique-defense/la-france-et-l-allemagne-vont-notifier-un-premier-contrat-scaf-a-dassault-et-airbus-806266.html

65 + 115 = 180 millions €, today 158,40 millions £...

...
 

Deltafan

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This time, in English :

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2019/02/06/airbus-dassault-tapped-to-pin-down-franco-german-fighter-plans/

Another article in French (not very different of the last one in French but with a new picture maybe a little more accurate)

http://www.opex360.com/2019/02/06/le-coup-denvoi-industriel-du-systeme-de-combat-aerien-du-futur-a-ete-donne/
 

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galgot

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Thanks !
Last image me like :) Dassault/Airbus Zwilling ? Enough to have our KittyVip to choke…

on the 3d render, new are the grey antennas (?) on the lerx LE.
Also can see these are frames on the canopy now…
 

Deltafan

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Thanks For your pictures with better definition flateric. For my own the most interesting is the better view of the thrust vectoring part of the engines.

Do you know from where come the two pictures of the NGF/SCAF ?


Otherwise, the Zwilling-SCAF could be something interesting for our Zwilling specialist Tophe ;)
 

flateric

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Deltafan said:
Do you know from where come the two pictures of the NGF/SCAF ?
Ministère des Armées website
https://www.defense.gouv.fr/english/actualites/articles/moteur-pour-le-systeme-de-combat-aerien-du-futur
https://www.defense.gouv.fr/english/portail-defense/issues2/plf-2019/les-materiels-missions-caracteristiques-industriels/syste-me-de-combat-ae-rien-du-futur-scaf
 

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Interesting picture also with what seems to be blade coolant injected from the tip and a winged seat base (the little yellow aprons at blade base)
 

sferrin

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Looks more like wax blades getting ready to get coated before investment casting.
 

galgot

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Yes, the i think "pipes" at the top are from were the wax gets out of the mold , and latter the material gets in the mold.
I think it's a mold on the left of the pict
 

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An entirely new engine will be developed for SCAF/FCAS by both Safran and MTU. In the framework of this partnership, Safran Aircraft Engines will take the lead in engine design and integration, and MTU will head up engine services. The German company will also be in charge of the low- and high-pressure compressors and the low-pressure turbine, while Safran will be responsible for the combustor, high-pressure turbine, and the afterburner , taking advantage of its experience with the M53 (Mirage 2000) and M88 (Rafale) engines. The existing Aerospace Embedded Solutions joint venture (held 50-50 by Safran and MTU) will be in charge of the engine-control hardware and software under the lead of Safran Aircraft Engines.
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2019-02-07/engine-partnership-announced-scaf-fcas-receives-first-contract

Sensible division of workshare, based on the core strengths of both companies as exemplified in the EJ200 and M88. I would have done exactly the same thing, which is not something that can be said about many such projects. Also leaves room for Spain's ITP to reprise their role of designing the nozzle.

Questions about political interference and nationalistic sensitivities remain of course, but I have to say that the actual decisions taken so far (granted, not many) make sense and speak of lessons learned from the Eurofighter/Rafale split. First handing overall lead to France and Dassault, now this - I am cautiously optimistic, care is apparently being taken to place the various responsibilities with the entities best able to take them on. The optimum scenario of course would be an eventual coming together of the Meteor AAM partners (though not necessarily with the same division of shares) for a world-beating, pan-European launch platform to match the world-beating, pan-European missile :)
 

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There is only one slight hiatus: Safran AeroBooster in Belgium that specializes in Low pressure compressor (booster). It does seems as if Safran head quarter swap them from their plans in favor of MTU despite their Belgian CEO recently claiming a still unused innovation in that domain (Belgian press).
 

Trident

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From what I've been able to gather their experience is exclusively core booster stages for high-BPR civilian turbofans (low tip speed due to small diameter and fan rpm, low pressure ratio). As compressors go, it's hard to get further away from a fighter engine fan (transonic tip speed, high pressure ratio) than that.

I don't see how they could possibly match MTU's world-class references on the EJ200 LPC & HPC.
 

Deltafan

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flateric said:
Deltafan said:
Do you know from where come the two pictures of the NGF/SCAF ?
Ministère des Armées website
https://www.defense.gouv.fr/english/actualites/articles/moteur-pour-le-systeme-de-combat-aerien-du-futur
https://www.defense.gouv.fr/english/portail-defense/issues2/plf-2019/les-materiels-missions-caracteristiques-industriels/syste-me-de-combat-ae-rien-du-futur-scaf
Trident said:
An entirely new engine will be developed for SCAF/FCAS by both Safran and MTU. (…) The German company will also be in charge of the low- and high-pressure compressors and the low-pressure turbine, while Safran will be responsible for the combustor, high-pressure turbine, and the afterburner
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2019-02-07/engine-partnership-announced-scaf-fcas-receives-first-contract
Thanks flateric and Trident :)
 

red admiral

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Trident said:
I don't see how they could possibly match MTU's world-class references on the EJ200 LPC & HPC.
But MTU pretty much just builds those parts to print, they were designed by RR.
 

harrier

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red admiral said:
Trident said:
I don't see how they could possibly match MTU's world-class references on the EJ200 LPC & HPC.
But MTU pretty much just builds those parts to print, they were designed by RR.
And it all happened a long, long time ago...

RR Deutschland could also be a source. The compressor of the BR715 and Pearl engines stem from the same research compressors as the EJ200. Of course, it is RR, so UK ownership. :eek:
 
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