France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet

GARGEAN

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flateric said:
Drums!

https://twitter.com/xaviervav/status/1054330106339123203?s=19
Looks indeed like tailless with vertical TV. Hmmm...
 

Trident

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From what's visible so far, chances are it'll look exactly like the Dassault CG images released to date.
 

LowObservable

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It looks a bit like the early RN experiments, where they used RAM netting....
 

TomcatViP

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LowObservable said:
It looks a bit like the early RN experiments, where they used RAM netting....
Well if we scale it up from 1/10th, it probably use some kind of Junker corrugated skin too. Probably the German side.
 

harrier

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Another 80s throwback - put it on a ship.

Didn't do Rafale any har...er...oh.

Neuron wingspan 12.5m/41ft; this NGF-N seems a fair bit bigger. So you need a big ship, especially if wings don't fold.
 

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galgot

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Wow I know it's just a model and configuration certainly will change , but so far I love the look . Specially that view .
Seems to be about a Rafale size, which doesn't have folding wings, so no need of a bigger ship than CdG.
Yes, no DSI, these are for Chinese fanboys. And no fins, so modern ;p !! Well at least it doesn't have a pelican head :D
Sorry couldn't help... love you Brits.
 

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totoro

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The whole model is so devoid of details that one wonders how accurate even the basic things like dimensions of wings/engines/intakes/cockpit are, compared to the rest of the plane. Basically, it seems very, very pointless to even discuss such a model in detail. Aside from discussions of general planform choice, no-tails choice, number of engines choice etc.
 

galgot

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Not mine , I re-posted one of Harrier's photos cause I love that angle ,
Thanks Harrier :)
 

TomcatViP

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What is the gull-winged mockup on the left?

And a suggestion to why such large wing: collapsible vertical tails.

Also notice that it seems to have asymmetrical wing design what suggest two different versions: the pointy for AdlA (left wing) and the larger one for the Marine (with collapsible verticals?)

At last it seems that this thing is in the expo to really display something :D
 

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TomcatViP

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well either the pictures have been doctored, either we have an optical anomaly...
 

Grey Havoc

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Or it could be a morphing wing. Which would be very interesting indeed.
 

JeffTracy

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‘Gull winged mockup’ is the UCAS formally known as UK-FR.
Why such a large wing? Probably due to the carrier approach speed requirement.
Both wings are the same but the tip being aligned with the inboard highly swept section, the wing thickness and possibly the usual couple of degrees of wing twist can make them look different.
 

galgot

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I think it's just an effect of the perspective really.
Photographing a model of this size (seems like 80cm/1m long) from this distance gives this kind of while angle distortion.
The left wing looks pointy cause the wing tip has an swept angle, and also because the wing tips has a bit of negative incidence (visible on the front view posted by deltafan, see how the tips goes down a bit). so from that camera angle , the left wing leading edge + wing tip look like a straight line.

Btw, the fact that this wing tip negative incidence is reproduced indicate that even if devoid of any surface details , the model is very precise shapewise.

edit: @JeffTracy, yes wing twist :)
 

TomcatViP

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Yes I do agree. Looking at the wing planform shadows confirms that the model could be indeed symmetrical.

Any good picture of the gull-winged UCAS?
 

sferrin

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LowObservable said:
Sacre bleu, will people stop nicking my doodle pad already?
I think that happens a lot. Went on about Pershing II being a potential strategic antiship missile for defense of the US back in the 90s on USENET. Now China has their DF-21. . . :p Obviously a coincidence, and yes, I know you were kidding. ;)
 

lastdingo

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totoro said:
The whole model is so devoid of details that one wonders how accurate even the basic things like dimensions of wings/engines/intakes/cockpit are, compared to the rest of the plane. Basically, it seems very, very pointless to even discuss such a model in detail. Aside from discussions of general planform choice, no-tails choice, number of engines choice etc.
I'm pretty sure they omitted a tail radar from the simplistic model, too. Likewise, no hint of DIRCM.
 

SteveO

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Grey Havoc said:
Or it could be a morphing wing. Which would be very interesting indeed.
That would explain the silver "Flight of the Navigator" ship look to the model ;)

Nice shape anyway!
 

Deltafan

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It is unfortunate that the NGF photo next to the nEUROn taking off is not taken closer, to better see if the engines are equipped with the TVC :-\

Edit : Is there not a little fin under the rear of each engine ? ???
 

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harrier

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Meanwhile: https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/german-air-force-only-has-four-active-typhoon-jets/
 

Trident

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Harrier said:
Intake splitters, not DSI, notable.

Seems a bit 80s to me - angular, intake under LERX for high AoA (and so no DSI?).
Galgot's rebuke is a bit harsh, but while DSI certainly is an elegant solution it does (as you say) have to integrate well with the rest of your configuration, so it's not a universally suitable choice.

totoro said:
The whole model is so devoid of details that one wonders how accurate even the basic things like dimensions of wings/engines/intakes/cockpit are, compared to the rest of the plane. Basically, it seems very, very pointless to even discuss such a model in detail. Aside from discussions of general planform choice, no-tails choice, number of engines choice etc.
Could be a wind tunnel model?

galgot said:
edit: @JeffTracy, yes wing twist :)
Yup, it's caused by the conical camber of the wing bending the tip of the far side wing out of sight in some photos.
 

Deltafan

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Not many details on the Dassault website… :

https://www.dassault-aviation.com/fr/groupe/actualites/euronaval-2018/
 

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harrier

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I think they just copied the Fairey Delta again, what with the 'uppy-over' intakes :eek: ;D
 

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Deltafan

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And I thought they had copied the German Horten Ho 229 because there was no horizontal or vertical fin ::) ;)
 

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bobbymike

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Dassault New Generation Fighter

http://aviationweek.com/defense/dassault-unveils-new-gen-fighter-mockup?NL=AW-05&Issue=AW-05_20181024_AW-05_69&sfvc4enews=42&cl=article_1&utm_rid=CPEN1000000230026&utm_campaign=17082&utm_medium=email&elq2=35045a76796d4f4daac156a607613e77

LYON, France—At the Euronaval show in Paris, Dassault is exhibiting a small-scale model of the “New-Generation Fighter” (NGF) France and Germany intend to build as a successor to the Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon.

The twin-engine, crewed aircraft would not have a vertical empennage, to enhance stealth. Engine air intakes would be rectangular. The model is consistent with the shapes appearing in a video Dassault issued at the ILA Berlin air show last April.

The NGF name was devised to clarify the identity of the future jet, a Dassault spokesperson says. The future combat air system (FCAS) Dassault is studying with Airbus has a confusing name, as it could refer to the aircraft and the “system of systems” (including UAVs, air tankers, Awacs and ground stations) it will be part of. FCAS also was the designation of a stalled project between France and the UK. Now NGF is the acronym for the aircraft and FCAS for the system of systems, the spokesperson emphasizes.
 

FighterJock

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Does this point towards the use of thrust vectoring nozzles?
 

harrier

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http://aviationweek.com/defense/dassault-unveils-new-gen-fighter-mockup

The picture with the article shows the very flat underside well.

At any AoA I think strong vortices will come off the edge of it and into the intakes.

Maybe this 'Franco-French' model is not too serious.
 

djfawcett

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I believe that we can pretty much rest assured that Dassault is not going to display a high fidelity model of the 6th generation concept at a naval convention for all the world to see. What they would display is a configuration that may be representative of what is actually "behind the closed door."
 

flateric

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Trappier said exactly that several months ago.
 

NUSNA_Moebius

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Can Germany and France together even afford it? Few planes = high price = no economy of scale. It doesn't seem like a worthwhile endeavor unless they commit to bare minimum 300 or 400 airframes.
 

flateric

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That's a rhetoric question. Anyway cooperative effort has more chances than separate ones.
Airbus' Enders constantly promotes all-European cooperation for FCAS to not to split markets for basically the same final product but UK (UK MoD in fact) only interested to be a leader in such a project that will not happen with current France-Germany endeavor where Dassault plays a leading role.
At least this is my understanding.
 

TomcatViP

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The flat underside refers more to modular payload and UCAS carriage to me. That's why I was asking what was the gull-winged mockup displayed in front of the model.

It's pretty sure at this stage that the concept comes with a range of additional flying systems. So the overall cost question would be more acute than only looking at the manned component. I mean, it can very quickly become the tree hiding the forest.
 

flateric

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It was known long time ago that manned component (that Dassault now call NGF) just a part of FCAS SoS.
FCAS SoS concept first appeared within ETAP program back in 00s.

Flat belly is good for LO and carrying conformal stuff, but has nothing to do with FCAS UCAS model in front of NGF model.
 
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