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France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet

Deltafan

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Hi,

As this project (for the replacement of the French Rafale and the German Eurofighter) is different of the Airbus project to replace the German Tornado and the Spanish F-18, I open a new topic :)

Well, as the time to replace Rafale and EF is not for tomorrow, this topic may last for décades ;D

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-germany-defence/france-and-germany-to-develop-new-european-fighter-jet-idUSKBN19Y1FJ

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,26320.180.html



Alas, it seems that we must maybe wait for mid-2018 to have more official content. But maybe we'll have some things before (hopefully).

I red in the french media available on the web that neither Dassault nor Airbus wanted to make comments about the Merkel-Macron statements.

At least we can compare the German-Spanish Airbus project and an old representation of a stealth-ised Rafale :
 

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muttbutt

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Oh this is a completely separate project?...I didn't realise, thanks mate for clearing it up B)
 

Deltafan

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muttbutt said:
Oh this is a completely separate project?...
As far as we can know now :)

The replacement for the French Rafale and the German Eurofighter is foreseen much later than the Airbus replacement of the German Tornado and the Spanish F-18.
 

mrmalaya

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interestingly, it appears to have completely surprised Dassault, who are now worried that Germany will pump more funds into the project and therefore be able to dictate things like workshare.
 

muttbutt

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BAE says unfazed by Franco-German fighter project, sees future role


The head of military aviation at UK defence contractor BAE Systems said on Friday (14 July) he did not feel threatened by Franco-German plans to develop a new European fighter and predicted Britain would end up participating in some way.

France and Germany unveiled plans on Thursday for a new European fighter to tighten defence and security cooperation. The two countries currently compete for sales, with Germany and Britain both part of the Eurofighter consortium.
Rest at the link
http://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/news/bae-says-unfazed-by-franco-german-fighter-project-sees-future-role/?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#link_time=1500049513
 

Deltafan

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mrmalaya said:
interestingly, it appears to have completely surprised Dassault, who are now worried that Germany will pump more funds into the project and therefore be able to dictate things like workshare.
Dassault made no comment. Or you have a source to share with us.

Dassault knows since a long time that France has no more enough money to build alone its next fighter. I think that they'll try to get the Project Management like for the Neuron Stealth UCAV demonstrator (France, Sweden, Italy, Spain, Swiss and Greece). Officially, they already said (last year) that for an european cooperation they don't want a system like for the Eurofighter or the A-400 M.

But, Germany has today much more money than France. And if this economic situation stays the same in future, probably the part of Germany will be bigger than Dassault could expect... Except if Germany agrees to let the Project Management to France.

For the workshare, Dassault had, in the past, already shared work to other french companies and even abroad (like to its belgian subsidiary SABCA). They shared the work for the Neuron too. I don't think that it could be a problem in 2040. The problem will be the Project Management...
 

martinbayer

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Deltafan said:
mrmalaya said:
interestingly, it appears to have completely surprised Dassault, who are now worried that Germany will pump more funds into the project and therefore be able to dictate things like workshare.
Dassault made no comment. Or you have a source to share with us.

Dassault knows since a long time that France has no more enough money to build alone its next fighter. I think that they'll try to get the "maîtrise d'œuvre" (I don't know the good word in English : subject mastery ?) like for the Neuron Stealth UCAV demonstrator (France, Sweden, Italy, Spain, Swiss and Greece). Officially, they already said (last year) that for an european cooperation they don't want a system like for the Eurofighter or the A-400 M.

But, Germany has today much more money than France. And if this economic situation stay the same in future, probably the part of Germany will be bigger than Dassault could expect... Except if Germany agree to let the "subject mastery" to France.

For the workshare, Dassault had, in the past, already shared work to other french companies and even abroad (like to its belgian subsidiary SABCA). I don't think that it could be a problem in 2040. The problem will be the "subject mastery"...
Maîtrise d'œuvre = Project management.

Which brings to mind the tired old joke:

"Q: What do a project manager and a butterfly have in common?

A: A butterfly doesn't fly butter either..."

Martin
 

Hood

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A little more political detail.
Not sure how much of this just fluffy politco talk since Airbus and Eurocopter etc. have pretty much made a joint French-German aerospace industry anyway, Dassault being the obvious independent outsider.

Two thoughts come to mind; is France attempting to dissuade German from buying US and how long will it take before the politicians start talking about merging Dassault with Airbus.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/franco-german-fighter-proposal-gains-momentum-439509/
 

Flyaway

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Hood said:
A little more political detail.
Not sure how much of this just fluffy politco talk since Airbus and Eurocopter etc. have pretty much made a joint French-German aerospace industry anyway, Dassault being the obvious independent outsider.

Two thoughts come to mind; is France attempting to dissuade German from buying US and how long will it take before the politicians start talking about merging Dassault with Airbus.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/franco-german-fighter-proposal-gains-momentum-439509/
From that article it sounds like BAE have got their fingers in a lot of different fighter projects, as thanks to brexit we can't rely on getting in on any European fighter project.
 

red admiral

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"Project" seems a strong description for this sort of thing given that there seems to be no money or engineering effort associated with it.

What we're seeing in these various stories is the initial international manoeuvring similar to that for Eurofighter. Someone on the political side has noted that it might be a good idea to keep the many thousands of high tech aircraft design and manufacture jobs in their country. Announcements of joint studies are easy and cost nothing. Look whether there are any contracts and what their value is.

Fundamentally, neither Germany nor France have €10bn+ sitting around to spend on this sort of thing. France is even cutting its military spending.

Time will tell who the serious players are (e.g. Japan seems to have spent a few hundred mn $ already on ATD-X)
 

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red admiral said:
"Project" seems a strong description for this sort of thing given that there seems to be no money or engineering effort associated with it.

What we're seeing in these various stories is the initial international manoeuvring similar to that for Eurofighter. Someone on the political side has noted that it might be a good idea to keep the many thousands of high tech aircraft design and manufacture jobs in their country. Announcements of joint studies are easy and cost nothing. Look whether there are any contracts and what their value is.

Fundamentally, neither Germany nor France have €10bn+ sitting around to spend on this sort of thing. France is even cutting its military spending.

Time will tell who the serious players are (e.g. Japan seems to have spent a few hundred mn $ already on ATD-X)
I work a little bit with Japanese engineers and its a matter of pride what they are doing. They WILL get something in the air that is closer to production than the demonstrator out or stubborn pride by itself. If it goes to production.... That's another question entirely.

Europe. Is harder to gauge. Typhoon is starting to become antiquated but their only real foe is Russia and their PAC FA doesn't look like it will roll off the line in real numbers. Plus they live under our golden umbrella. For the sake of their economy, they may just roll out a drone just to keep their engineers working and current.
 

mrmalaya

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Typhoon is becoming antiquated?

Remember, it has a further 20+ years in service as of now, and likely more. It might be easy to dismiss this Franco-German project (actually much of Europe is incorporated in that "German" part) as purely political, but that would be to misunderstand how enthusiastic Europe is to be united.

My opinion is that Europe will produce a successor to Typhoon and Rafale as it will also produce a UCAV, and the only question is how much of that Britain contributes to.

I would rather see the UK join with Japan on a future fighter, but has either country got the balls not to buy American?
 

muttbutt

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mrmalaya said:
Typhoon is becoming antiquated?

Remember, it has a further 20+ years in service as of now, and likely more. It might be easy to dismiss this Franco-German project (actually much of Europe is incorporated in that "German" part) as purely political, but that would be to misunderstand how enthusiastic Europe is to be united.

My opinion is that Europe will produce a successor to Typhoon and Rafale as it will also produce a UCAV, and the only question is how much of that Britain contributes to.

I would rather see the UK join with Japan on a future fighter, but has either country got the balls not to buy American?
As I said over on the key forums, I'm cautiously optimistic. There seems to be a genuine effort to work together on these things. What with the French letting the Germans take the lead on the UAV and the new MBT.
It seems like the Germans will give the French the nod to lead the fighter project.
 

mrmalaya

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Indeed, it is more a question of how advanced it will be. As has been said, are they looking for a genuine future fighter or just a European stealth jet.
 

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mrmalaya said:
Typhoon is becoming antiquated?

Remember, it has a further 20+ years in service as of now, and likely more. It might be easy to dismiss this Franco-German project (actually much of Europe is incorporated in that "German" part) as purely political, but that would be to misunderstand how enthusiastic Europe is to be united.

My opinion is that Europe will produce a successor to Typhoon and Rafale as it will also produce a UCAV, and the only question is how much of that Britain contributes to.

I would rather see the UK join with Japan on a future fighter, but has either country got the balls not to buy American?
Yes. Antiquated. I know exactly that I said and what it infers.

Typhoon is flying radar target. It may have some slick moves at airshows, but it's fucked to use them in A2A like a lot of slick airshow maneuvers. Totally useless.

With Raptor and -35 and Pak Fa and the Chinese stuff, Typhoon is antiquated by comparison. In 13 years when PCA is allegedly going to be fielded, Typhoon will really be antiquated. I remember when Typhoon was a sketch on a napkin (figuratively). It's from a soon to be by-gone era of A2A combat. Granted the overwhelming majority of Russian equipment that Typhoon *would* see in combat is also antiquated, by today's measuring stick, and the measuring stick of what will be in 10 years, Typhoon is old.

Granted (again) there are no other stealth jets in service outside the US, but as soon as the Russians and Chinese are fielded, Typhoon is old school, baby. As is the French delta wing and the Gripen.

Europe is lagging behind the world in developing a LO aerial combat warplane. But hey, they're buying the -35 to fill that role. Hence, they will likely just work on a A2G drone with missilier capability in order to keep their engineers current and the socialist economy steaming ahead.
 

galgot

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While I agree for the most , the "socialist economy" part was funny ...
Lol, if we have a socialism here, what do you have in the US ? Feudalism ?
 

mrmalaya

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And we have to assume that all of the teen series fighters are even more antiquated, with the measuring stick apparently being stealth only?

PCA in 13 years eh? Funny how that programme wont be effected by any form of delay and yet all others inevitably deliver years late - whether that's Typhoon, F35, or PAK-FA.

Anyway, whilst I'm glad the Typhoon gets you so excited, I think the general consensus is that although the F35 may replace things like the German Tornado or RAF T1 Typhoon, the French will replace their Rafale with a fighter (which wont be American) and the Germans likewise their Typhoon's.
 

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mrmalaya said:
And we have to assume that all of the teen series fighters are even more antiquated, with the measuring stick apparently being stealth only?

PCA in 13 years eh? Funny how that programme wont be effected by any form of delay and yet all others inevitably deliver years late - whether that's Typhoon, F35, or PAK-FA.

Anyway, whilst I'm glad the Typhoon gets you so excited, I think the general consensus is that although the F35 may replace things like the German Tornado or RAF T1 Typhoon, the French will replace their Rafale with a fighter (which wont be American) and the Germans likewise their Typhoon's.
Absolutely the teens are antiquated. What do you a call a flying radar reflector that cruises subsonically (doesn't even have speed to make up a little for not being LO) and laden with external fuel tanks? External weapons? Totally unequivocally reliant on jammer aircraft to reach a target? Even my illustrious Tomcat 21 if it had been built would be antiquated by today's standards. Yes, today's AAMs make the teens and the Europeans more effective than when they were fielded, but you know what? If the Piper I fly had 120s/meteors/9xs and was data linked to something with radar or had a good ir suite, it would be deadly as well.

Therein lies the heart of the -35. Awesome SA, awesome missiles, very low signatures, and adequate kinematics to preposition for missile release.

Honestly the only reason these planes are still relevant is because of the proliferation of other antiquated Russian equipment still flying. That's for A2A. For a2g versus a modern foes weapons, they are dead meat. Honestly you could upgrade what's left of the flying Phantoms with aesa, slammers, 9xs and they could go toe to toe with today's teens and Europeans. I was there in the 80s when Phantoms were going against eagles and cats and the outcome was skewed to the teens, but it was still pilot versus pilot.

The page has turned. The last chapter has been written. Its a new ballgame. We are just waiting for all the new players to take to the field.
 

mrmalaya

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Hmmm, so we are back to a slightly grumpy assertion that if it's not the F35 then it's not worth flying.

Did you know that the French defence hierarchy believe the Rafale to be good enough to stay in service until 2050? They have faith in their technology too, although I'm not sure it warrants that level of hubris either.
 

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The Rafael to keep flying until 2050? For comparison the Typhoon's out of service date is projected to be around 2040 (or so I have read online).
 

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Honestly the only reason these planes are still relevant is because of the proliferation of other antiquated Russian equipment still flying.
So the only reason they are relevant is that nearly every other peer or near-peer is flying things on that level or worse... Sounds pretty relevant then...
 

mrmalaya

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I was surprised, no, gobsmacked by the idea that they could see no need to work on a replacement yet. It came from two separate sources and was tied to the concept that Dassault were quite happy to slowly upgrade the Rafale, work on exports (which is perhaps why this notion of the Rafale being relevant for decades is being promoted by the MOD and Dassault) and use FCAS as a way to develop new technology.
 

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Surely the BAE P 125 could be updated, or something like it. There is a huge amount of talent in the UK and Europe so why NOT contribute to break the cartel of the US companies with their political clout.
 

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I think that this thread is dealing with whether or not the French can overcome the idea of Rafale being obsolescent in a couple of decades, and if they can swallow that idea, whether then will allow others to contribute to a successor.

My personal feeling is that BAE in it's many guises has been far more active in terms of technological development than Dassault or Airbus (in the fast jet/UCAV field at least) and this is why BAE is partnering with other countries to develop new aircraft and Dassault is trying to flog the Rafale.
 

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Perhaps we would be better off working with the Japanese companies, then selling to the EU/NATO. If they can their collective posteriors and ego's to accept it is that or buy US equipment.
 

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Franco-German defence pact does not threaten UCAV initiative: Dassault chief

The pact between France and Germany to develop a next-generation fighter does not threaten the Franco-British unmanned combat air vehicle project on which Dassault and BAE Systems are partnered, the French company’s chief executive insists.
In fact, Éric Trappier believes all three countries may combine their efforts into an initiative to develop a successor to the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale, despite concerns that Brexit could leave the UK isolated from future pan-European defence programmes.

"We are still committed to the UCAV with BAE," says Trappier. "At the moment we have two very distinct roadmaps. I don’t know if they will be merged at some point."
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/franco-german-defence-pact-does-not-threaten-ucav-in-439733/
 

Triton

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"Airbus, Dassault vie for leadership of Franco-German fighter"
Tim Hepher

November 3, 2017

Source:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-germany-defence/airbus-dassault-vie-for-leadership-of-franco-german-fighter-idUSKBN1D31W0

PARIS (Reuters) - With the ink barely dry on a deal between France and Germany to develop a new combat jet, Airbus and Dassault are squaring up for leadership of a project that could reshape Europe’s fragmented fighter industry.

French President Emmanuel Macron and German Chancellor Angela Merkel unveiled the plans at a summit in July, burying past defense industry rivalries as part of efforts to tighten co-operation as Britain withdraws from the European Union.

The new combat system could involve a mixture of manned and unmanned aircraft and would eventually replace the Rafale and Eurofighter, rival jets that compete fiercely for global sales, as well as the older Panavia Tornado.

That sets the tone for co-operation between Airbus, which represents Germany and Spain in the Eurofighter consortium, and Dassault Aviation, the manufacturer of France’s Rafale.

But there has been little formal discussion yet over the shape of the project, let alone who would take the lead in development, according to industry and defense officials.

Airbus, whose mostly Germany-based defense arm makes up about a quarter of its sales, laid claim to the leading role in an op-ed article published on Friday.

“On the assumption that the necessary political will is in place, Airbus is offering to drive cooperation with its European partners and to shape this aspect of our common European future,” Dirk Hoke, chief executive of Airbus Defense & Space, wrote in Germany-based defense newsletter Griephan Briefe.

He described his company as “the lead...for a project of this nature.”

Dassault has itself offered to be the “architect” of the Franco-German project and Chief Executive Eric Trappier told Reuters recently that it would be the natural leader due to its experience in building an all-French fighter planeFrench President Emmanuel Macron and German Chancellor Angela Merkel unveiled the plans at a summit in July, burying past defense industry rivalries as part of efforts to tighten co-operation as Britain withdraws from the European Union.

The new combat system could involve a mixture of manned and unmanned aircraft and would eventually replace the Rafale and Eurofighter, rival jets that compete fiercely for global sales, as well as the older Panavia Tornado.

That sets the tone for co-operation between Airbus, which represents Germany and Spain in the Eurofighter consortium, and Dassault Aviation, the manufacturer of France’s Rafale.

But there has been little formal discussion yet over the shape of the project, let alone who would take the lead in development, according to industry and defense officials.

Airbus, whose mostly Germany-based defense arm makes up about a quarter of its sales, laid claim to the leading role in an op-ed article published on Friday.

“On the assumption that the necessary political will is in place, Airbus is offering to drive cooperation with its European partners and to shape this aspect of our common European future,” Dirk Hoke, chief executive of Airbus Defense & Space, wrote in Germany-based defense newsletter Griephan Briefe.

He described his company as “the lead...for a project of this nature.”

Dassault has itself offered to be the “architect” of the Franco-German project and Chief Executive Eric Trappier told Reuters recently that it would be the natural leader due to its experience in building an all-French fighter plane.

Airbus’s call also appeared aimed at speeding up the project as Germany looks to U.S. rivals to meet interim fighter gaps.

Germany earlier this year asked Washington for a briefing on the Lockheed Martin (LMT.N) F-35 fighter as it gears up to replace its current fleet of fighter jets from 2025. [nL1N1K206B] It has also asked for data on Boeing’s F/A-18E/F.

Hoke said buying American could weaken the European defense industry and make it ever-more reliant on U.S. “black box” technology that is not shared with foreign operators, while injecting uncertainty into Franco-German plans for a new jet.

“An interim solution for the replacement of old fleets already appears probable. If important decisions are delayed, a stopgap of this type could take on a dimension that would cast doubt on the economic efficiency of the entire project,” he said.

France and Germany said in July they aim to come up with a roadmap by mid-2018 for jointly leading development of the new aircraft to replace their existing fleets of rival warplanes.

Dassault Aviation appears to have been caught by surprise by July’s announcement, which cut across its existing partnership with BAE Systems to build a demonstrator for an unmanned combat vehicle, called Future Combat Air System (FCAS).

Defense analysts say the French company is in a strong position to be in the driving seat from a technological point of view, having made it plain it regards BAE as its technological peer.

But at least for now, such considerations are likely to take a backseat to how the project will be funded amid tight defense budgets, an industry source said.

“It is quite normal for industrialists to claim leadership, but it is too early to talk about that,” he added.
 

Trident

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I would guess there is virtually no fighter experience on the French side of Airbus? Not that there needs to be, Dassault is after all an admirable agent to have in the game (to the extent that I would agree they should take the lead in overall concept design)!
 

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So I guess France will be building their own plane again? ;)
 

red admiral

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sferrin said:
So I guess France will be building their own plane again? ;)
There doesn't seem to be any evidence that Dassault have moved on from the EFA position of "give us most of the money and leadership whilst we shaft your own country's industry"

Of course with the big assumption that a future fighter will be LO, Dassault has very limited experience in that field so it seems difficult for them to lead...

And of course Airbus owns Dassault...
 

DrRansom

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Does Europe have billions of dollars to resurrect their moribund military aircraft industry? Nooooo.
 

sferrin

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DrRansom said:
Does Europe have billions of dollars to resurrect their moribund military aircraft industry? Nooooo.
If Japan, SK, and even Turkey can pursue a 5th gen aircraft I don't see why Europe couldn't.
 

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red admiral said:
Of course with the big assumption that a future fighter will be LO, Dassault has very limited experience in that field so it seems difficult for them to lead...
Given that Rafale did well for a non-US design of its vintage in this regard, I would not be so sure about that. They may have kept their work closer to their chest than others, but I don't think absence of evidence qualifies as evidence of absence here - and nEUROn looks like a rather competent design in terms of LO to me.

red admiral said:
And of course Airbus owns Dassault...
Not anymore.
 

Deltafan

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red admiral said:
There doesn't seem to be any evidence that Dassault have moved on from the EFA position of "give us most of the money and leadership whilst we shaft your own country's industry"
I thought it was the US position from the JSF...

red admiral said:
Of course with the big assumption that a future fighter will be LO, Dassault has very limited experience in that field so it seems difficult for them to lead...
Barracuda and Taranis are less limited ?
Fortunately, when the British-French FCAS/SCAF will fly, France and UK will be as limited as each other...

red admiral said:
And of course Airbus owns Dassault...
At the end, maybe... But for the control of costs, not necessarily*

*In 2010, the French National Audit Office said that the Rafale program has increased by 16.5% since the beginning
In 2011, the British National Audit Office said that the EF program has increased by 75% since the beginning
 

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Deltafan said:
red admiral said:
There doesn't seem to be any evidence that Dassault have moved on from the EFA position of "give us most of the money and leadership whilst we shaft your own country's industry"
I thought it was the US position from the JSF...
The JSF was always a US program. Not the same as the Rafale/Eurofighter situation in any way, shape, or form.
 

Deltafan

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sferrin said:
Deltafan said:
red admiral said:
There doesn't seem to be any evidence that Dassault have moved on from the EFA position of "give us most of the money and leadership whilst we shaft your own country's industry"
I thought it was the US position from the JSF...
The JSF was always a US program. Not the same as the Rafale/Eurofighter situation in any way, shape, or form.
Yes, an all US program (apart from maybe a, not US, and, of course, canceled, European RR engine...), incidentally to destroy the European Aircraft Industry, too... And maybe it will completely success... If it demonstrates definitively efficiency, reliability and low operating costs.
See you in 30 years.
 

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Deltafan said:
Yes, a US program, incidentally to destroy the European Aircraft Industry, too... And maybe it will completely success...
It was a program developed to meet the needs of all the major military services in the U.S. It was not developed to destroy the European aircraft industry as they've never required any help from the U.S. in that regard. Please keep the conspiracy theories elsewhere.
 

Deltafan

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It's less a conspiracy than a result. Each time that an European land buys a F-35, it's less money for the research and development in European Aircraft Industry. And there are now in West-Europa only three fighter aircraft builders. If the production lines are closing... The future will be difficult, including to develop even a single new plane...

But I never said that it's only the fault of US.
 
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