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Ford to reveal all-electric F-150 Lightning on 19 May

edwest2

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Archibald

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It amuses me when classic cars are completely re-invented around lithium batteries - when their IC combustion engines could burn ammonia with few modifications and no CO2 emissions whatsoever, too. Also methanol, but that one has carbon inside.

Still waiting for an hybrid car with
a) an IC engine running on ammonia, no CO2
b) a lithium battery, no CO2 either

The best of IC, hybrids, green fuel and electric cars altogether: no CO2 but still a good range. And it can reuse existing infrastructures, partly from gasoline, partly from the ammonia fertilizer network. No need for chargers everywhere.

Oh, well...
 

Hobbes

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this isn't a modified classic though: it's a new design that just reuses an old name.

Ammonia just moves the CO2 production from the car to the plant that produces the ammonia.
 

robunos

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The best of IC, hybrids, green fuel and electric cars altogether: no CO2 but still a good range. And it can reuse existing infrastructures, partly from gasoline, partly from the ammonia fertilizer network. No need for chargers everywhere.

But this is the whole point; an autonomous vehicle can't refuel itself with liquid or gaseous fuel, but can recharge itself by means of an inductive, no contact charger. Remember, going electric for 'green' reasons is just a cover, the true end state of all this is driverless cars, or more correctly, car-less drivers . . . ;)

cheers,
Robin.
 

Archibald

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this isn't a modified classic though: it's a new design that just reuses an old name.

Ammonia just moves the CO2 production from the car to the plant that produces the ammonia.

Fair enough. Unless nuclear power can be used to make ammonia without making CO2, but that's... complicated.
 

jeffb

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this isn't a modified classic though: it's a new design that just reuses an old name.

Ammonia just moves the CO2 production from the car to the plant that produces the ammonia.

Fair enough. Unless nuclear power can be used to make ammonia without making CO2, but that's... complicated.

*cough* Photo-voltaics *cough*
 

Archibald

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this isn't a modified classic though: it's a new design that just reuses an old name.

Ammonia just moves the CO2 production from the car to the plant that produces the ammonia.

Fair enough. Unless nuclear power can be used to make ammonia without making CO2, but that's... complicated.

*cough* Photo-voltaics *cough*
How would it happen ? solar furnace ? splitting hydrogen from water via solar electric power ?
 

Foo Fighter

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Porsche are running a project to enable us to retain ICE and be as clean as electric.

 

edwest2

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Some military vehicles can use a variety of fuels. In order to keep profits high, the public can only be offered one. The problem with solar power is the lack of sunlight at night. One method to keep the power on is liquid salt storage. Cheaper than nuclear and no problem if the storage unit ruptures in the desert.

While the United States has a number of public charging stations, the average driver will be offered a charging unit that will be installed in his garage or driveway.

The whole point of new battery technology is power storage. At present, electricity is constantly being generated and is used on demand, or not. With electric power storage, it will be possible to distribute electricity as needed, and it does not have to be flowing through the wires constantly. It could also serve as a backup for brief power outages. Solid state batteries with high energy densities and low weight means they can be used to power aircraft. As the technology improves, weight will go down with an increase in power density.
 

Hobbes

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In order to keep profits high, the public can only be offered one.
Gas stations over here routinely offer ~6 fuels (2-3x petrol at different octane numbers, 2x diesel, LPG, CNG), so I don't think that's the reason.
Adding more fuel types does complicate the logistics.

The biggest roadblocks to moving to ammonia are:
- massive investment needed to produce enough ammonia. Current ammonia production is about 1/300 of fuel production.
- massive investment needed to produce ammonia without producing as much CO2 as the petrol it's supposed to replace.
- ammonia is gaseous at room temperature. The ammonia you buy in household bottles is mixed with water to increase its boiling point.
- Ammonia's energy density is 1/3 that of petrol, which means you need 3x more of it (in pure form) to achieve the same range compared to petrol. IOW, your car now needs half its boot space for fuel, or your range anxiety will be worse than when using an electric vehicle.
 

edwest2

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On this side, there are three grades of gasoline, and diesel and propane. My point is, there are still a lot of people holding oil stocks. The transition has to occur in such a way that they can move their money into other energy stocks. As battery technology is further deployed, and this reaches a certain number, those people will buy whatever they need to buy to keep their current income level.
 

Dragon029

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How would it happen ? solar furnace ? splitting hydrogen from water via solar electric power ?
Hydrogen is easily enough split from water via renewable electricity; it can then be combined with atmospheric nitrogen to produce ammonia via the Haber process, which involves a metal catalyst (which doesn't require any rare earth minerals) under high temps and pressures (which can just be produced electrically).
SpaceX intends to do something somewhat similar with ISRU methane production on Mars; producing methane from water and CO2 using a ton of solar power (though I'm sure they'd also be interested in the fission reactor tech that NASA's been developing).
 

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Just to add levity, and maybe bring some perspective to the "so cool and innovative" idea of electrical cars, here is the 1912 version.
This marketeer at Ford, Twitty-Teslon, and all the other Twits (tm) who claim to "make history" should really study some history...


(Besides, in my book, if you replace what's coming out of a car's exhaust muffler by what's coming out of an electrical utility plant, be it powered by oil, nukes, coal, or Chinese-rare-earth-cells, you have NOT really solved Spaceship Earth's problem. But the sheer number of voters who think otherwise probably makes them right)
 

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edwest2

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dan_inbox

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The goal is zero harmful emissions and electrical power generation through means other than coal and oil.
Yes, this is the ecologists' narrative, isn't it?

Maybe someday it will happen in some utopian Teletubbies-like world, but in this reality it simply creates much more pollution.

The attached photos show the outcome in the real world: The ecolo-socialist mayor of Paris Ms Hidalgo wanted to forcibly convert Parisians to "Autolib" electric cars.

Even though, from a practical perspective, that would replace cars running on gazoline by cars running on nuclear-produced electricity (EDF's generators are >70% nukes), through batteries full of chemicals imported from China, she still went for it.

The outcome is a cemetery of hundreds of Autolibs unwanted and unused by the Parisians, rooting away in Romorantin and leaking toxic chemicals into underground aquifers.
No comments on the magnitude of this disaster, in pollution and in taxpayers' money.

When people motivated by religious-like beliefs get the power to force them unto their unlucky population, instead of letting things mature, disaster is the normal outcome.
 

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