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Fiat CS15

Nick Sumner

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Does anyone have, or can they point me ti information and pictures of the Fiat CS15 aircraft and its AS8 V16 engine?
 

lark

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After Germany won back the world speed record with the Messerschmitt 'Me 109R' , efforts
restarted in Italy to prepare a new machine , with a new engine and new airframe.
The 2250hp AS.8 was built by Fiat in a short time , while the airframe , the C.S.15 was designed but never left the drawing board because the outbreak of WW II brought the entire program to an end.

from : Skyways - April 1996.
 

Justo Miranda

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I have low resolution stuff only
Post-1
 

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Justo Miranda

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Post-2
 

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red admiral

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The two in the last post are preliminary designs for the G.55 with the A.38 inline V16 which was to be developed from the AS.8
 

Skybolt

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And the first is the CS-38, a project of a fighter with the A-38 drawn by Manlio Stavelli, the chief designr of CMASA, and designer of the CS-15 record airplane.
The relationship ot the A-38 with the AS.8 is debatable. The design was very different, expecially in the definitive inverted V configuration. And, more importantly, the design of the A.38 was started before (in 1938) that the AS.8.
CS.15 follows.
 

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Nick Sumner

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Forgive the thread necromancy but here is a picture of the Fiat A38 from Aeronautica Militare Museo Storico Catologo Motori by Oscar Marchi

 

Nick Sumner

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In Justo's first post in this thread the engine appears to be the Fiat A38. The scale on this picture would seem to suggest a length from reduction gear housing to the rear of the engine as being roughly 2.2 metres, lenth from the end of the prop shaft to the rear of the engine is about 2.6 m, width 0.8 m and height 1.1 m
 

zeroc

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Skybolt said:
And the first is the CS-38, a project of a fighter with the A-38 drawn by Manlio Stavelli, the chief designr of CMASA, and designer of the CS-15 record airplane.
The relationship ot the A-38 with the AS.8 is debatable. The design was very different, expecially in the definitive inverted V configuration. And, more importantly, the design of the A.38 was started before (in 1938) that the AS.8.
CS.15 follows.

My two cents about the C.S.15.
The plane blueprint was first released by M. Stiavelli on 10/4/1939 (dd/mm/yyyy) as Corsa Stiavelli 15 ("Corsa" means "Race" in this case). Project coordinators were General U. Savoja on behalf of FIAT and General M. Bernasconi for Regia Aeronautica.
The aircraft should be powered by FIAT A.S.8, designed by Ing. Fessia: 16 cylinders in two 45° opposite rows of 8, able to release upo to 2.250HP and 3.200rpm to his two counter-rotating co-axial propellers.
The plane could be able to fly at over 800 Km/h to break the world record speed.

Attached, a rendered image I've created of this aircraft.
 

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Apophenia

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zeroc: I'm looking forward to seeing your image of the C.S.15. Unfortunately, you need to have made at least 5 posts on the forum before you can attach images.
 

zeroc

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Apophenia said:
zeroc: I'm looking forward to seeing your image of the C.S.15. Unfortunately, you need to have made at least 5 posts on the forum before you can attach images.

Oops. I see. I'm not a frequent flyer in this site... until now.
Anyway, for all the people interested, this is the facebook page devoted to my works, CS15 included:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Nuova-Guida-agli-Aeroplani-di-tutto-il-Mondo/101090849948183?ref=hl

Hope I'll be ok this time.
Cheers,
Marco
 

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Jemiba

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I took the liberty to add the great CS.15 rendering !
Interesting layout of the landing gear. Looks, as if the halves folded downwards before
retracting backwards ?
 

zeroc

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Jemiba said:
I took the liberty to add the great CS.15 rendering !
Interesting layout of the landing gear. Looks, as if the halves folded downwards before
retracting backwards ?

Thank you!
The landing gear was quite an uncommon view. I've tried to re-create it from the blueprint (the same of Skybolt's), where the gear seems to be one-piece (I means "solid, not tubular") stuff. But other images of the actual model shows a different solution (attached).
To be honest, having actually completed the model, I would not redraw it again.
Anyway, I presume the gear was to be folded downwards and retracted rearwards (see blueprint).
Cheers,
M.
 

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Jemiba

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An alternative could be to rotate the axle parallel to the fuselage and retract it in that attitude.
Would decrease mechanicla complexity, but increase the needed volume in the fuselage, I think.
 

zeroc

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Jemiba said:
An alternative could be to rotate the axle parallel to the fuselage and retract it in that attitude.
Would decrease mechanicla complexity, but increase the needed volume in the fuselage, I think.

IMHO, this doesn't match with the blueprint, where the wheel(s) are (or seems to be) retracted backwards. Second, I cannot even image how it can handle the two upper strouts (those coming from the fuselage).
The latter remain a mystery even in a "normal" retracting gear.
 

Jemiba

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You're right, the drawing in #6 shows it quite clearly, I think. A kind
of double fold, the side struts could have been telescopic struts.
 

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topspeed3

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zeroc said:
Apophenia said:
zeroc: I'm looking forward to seeing your image of the C.S.15. Unfortunately, you need to have made at least 5 posts on the forum before you can attach images.

Oops. I see. I'm not a frequent flyer in this site... until now.
Anyway, for all the people interested, this is the facebook page devoted to my works, CS15 included:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Nuova-Guida-agli-Aeroplani-di-tutto-il-Mondo/101090849948183?ref=hl

Hope I'll be ok this time.
Cheers,
Marco

Bellissima !

Just like a Star Wars new generation.
 

c460

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Hi,
Is there any picture known of the CMASA CS.15 under construction?
 

zeroc

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No, AFAIK. I know only some photos of mockup in reduced scale.
 

hesham

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From Jet & Prop 1/1993,


here is the Fiat/CMASA CS.15 drawings.
 

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zeroc

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hesham said:
From Jet & Prop 1/1993,


here is the Fiat/CMASA CS.15 drawings.

The image caption has an error: "Stavelli" (the designer) instead of "Stiavelli" (the right name).
 

blackkite

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Hi!

https://oldmachinepress.com/2014/07/23/fiat-as-8-engine-and-cmasa-cs-15-racer/
"However, Germany captured the world speed record on 30 March 1939, when Hans Dieterle flew 463.919 mph (746.606 km/h) in the Heinkel He 100 (V8). Germany raised the record a month later on 26 April 1939, when Fritz Wendel traveled 469.221 mph (755.138 km/h) in the Messerschmitt Me 209 (V1).
Even before Dieterle’s record flight, the Italians had considered building an aircraft specifically for a new record attempt. FIAT, with the support of the Italian government, wanted to win the record back and had initiated an aircraft and engine design that was somewhat finalized before Wendel’s record flight. The new record aircraft was designed and built by Costruzioni Meccaniche Aeronautiche SA (CMASA), a FIAT subsidiary in Pisa. The engine would be designed and built at FIAT’s headquarters in Turin."

"The AS.8 was unique in many ways. Its two banks of eight cylinders were set at 45 degrees. The 16 cylinders gave a total displacement of 2,104 cu in (34.5 L). The cylinders had a 6.5 to 1 compression ratio. The single-stage supercharger was geared to the rear of the engine and provided pressurized air to the cylinders via a long intake manifold between the cylinder banks. The carburetors were mounted above the supercharger. Unlike the AS.6, which used independent coaxial propellers, the AS.8 featured contra-rotating propellers geared to the front of the engine at a 0.60:1 reduction. Two sets of two-blade propellers 7.2 ft (2.2 m) in diameter could convert the AS.8’s power into thrust for the CS.15. The engine weighed 1,742 lb (790 kg)."

"For cooling, pressurized water was drawn into a pump on each side of the engine, near its front. A manifold delivered the water to each cylinder on the outside of the bank. The water then flowed through the cylinders and exited their top into another manifold situated in the Vee of the engine. The heated water, still under pressure, was taken back to the CS.15’s tail, where it was depressurized and allowed to boil. The steam then flowed through the CS.15’s wings, where 80% of their surface area was used to cool the steam and allow it to condense back into water. The water was then re-pressurized and fed back to the engine. Engine oil was also cooled by surface cooling in the rear and tail of the aircraft."
Drawing source
http://www.fiamaero.it/regolamenti/ottavo-convegno/cs15-a-elastico.pdf

CMASA(FIAT) CS.15
Engine : Fiat AS8 2,250hp
Span : 10.5m
Empty weight : 1,910kg
Gross weight : 2,300kg
Endurance : 30min
Maximum speed : 850km/h

Excellent 3D drawing. Wind shield shape is impressive.Too many engine exhaust nozzles? ;D
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3618.0;attach=195513;image

Where is the oil cooler? Same as He100?
Can you see the Leaning Tower of Pisa in bottom picture? ;)
 

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zeroc

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CMASA C.S.15 profile, last version, with b/ground.
Cheers,
Marco.
 

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hesham

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zeroc said:
CMASA C.S.15 profile, last version, with b/ground.
Cheers,
Marco.

Oh my God,fantastic work my dear Zeroc.
 

Boogey

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In Polish monthly " Lotnictwo " 5/2016 I found an information that in the designation CMASA ( Fiat ) CS.15 letters CS mean Corsa Stiavelli ( racer airplane
of Manlio Stiavelli ).
By the way another interesting site ... https://www.researchgate.net/publication/273455013_Forgotten_aircraft_the_aeroplanes_of_CMASA
with the CS.15 model photo.
 

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zeroc

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Boogey said:
In Polish monthly " Lotnictwo " 5/2016 I found an information that in the designation CMASA ( Fiat ) CS.15 letters CS mean Corsa Stiavelli ( racer airplane
of Manlio Stiavelli ).

It's correct.
 

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