F-14D vs F-15 War-Game Question

[KJ_Lesnick]

According to a quote on Airliners.net, I read about a claim from a member named NBGSkyGod...

Just prior to VF-101 retiring their Tomcats, they did some war games with the 159th FW F-15s. When they flew out, it was 6 Eagles and 4 Tomcats. One Tomcat was "shot down" and 5 Eagles were "splashed". All of the dog-fighting was done in close quarters with nothing more than guns and AIM-9s.

Is this true? Was this a typical example of a dogfight with a later-era tomcat (F-110-GE400 powered) or an exception to the rule in which the F-14 tomcat pilots got lucky?


KJ

 

[F-14D]

According to a quote on Airliners.net, I read about a claim from a member named NBGSkyGod...

Just prior to VF-101 retiring their Tomcats, they did some war games with the 159th FW F-15s. When they flew out, it was 6 Eagles and 4 Tomcats. One Tomcat was "shot down" and 5 Eagles were "splashed". All of the dog-fighting was done in close quarters with nothing more than guns and AIM-9s.

Is this true? Was this a typical example of a dogfight with a later-era tomcat (F-110-GE400 powered) or an exception to the rule in which the F-14 tomcat pilots got lucky?


KJ

And F-14D is generally more agile than an F-15 overall, but not completely. Close-in it has disadvantages and advantages. Among the disadvantages are that what its vg wing is doing can telegraph what it's going to do next and this can be exploited by an astute pilot. Its advantages include superior sensors, somewhat higher performance, a tighter turn radius and very, very important, it is a two crew aircraft. This is always a big advantage, but a very big advantage in a many vs. many melee.

 

[KJ_Lesnick]

F-14D,

F-14D is generally more agile than an F-15 overall, but not completely.

Which areas are the F-15 more agile than the F-14D?

somewhat higher performance

Just to be clear, do you mean the T/W ratio vs wing-loading? Because I was under the impression that the F-15 was a little bit faster than the F-14 (F-14 = M 2.47 F-15 = M 2.5+)

a tighter turn radius

At what speeds? (The F-110-GE-400 on the F-14B/F-14D would have increased the sustained-maneuverability across the entire speed-range though I don't know by how *much* it was increased across the whole speed-range -- particularly in the vital intermediate airspeed, high subsonic/transonic range which the F-15 historically has excelled in. I know the F-14A, and by extension the F-14D, had better instantaneous maneuverability at low airspeeds and superior instantaneous agility at supersonic speed due to it's swing-wings than the F-15)


KJ Lesnick

 

[F-14D]

F-14D,

F-14D is generally more agile than an F-15 overall, but not completely.

Which areas are the F-15 more agile than the F-14D?

somewhat higher performance

Just to be clear, do you mean the T/W ratio vs wing-loading? Because I was under the impression that the F-15 was a little bit faster than the F-14 (F-14 = M 2.47 F-15 = M 2.5+)

a tighter turn radius

At what speeds? (The F-110-GE-400 on the F-14B/F-14D would have increased the sustained-maneuverability across the entire speed-range though I don't know by how *much* it was increased across the whole speed-range -- particularly in the vital intermediate airspeed, high subsonic/transonic range which the F-15 historically has excelled in. I know the F-14A, and by extension the F-14D, had better instantaneous maneuverability at low airspeeds and superior instantaneous agility at supersonic speed due to it's swing-wings than the F-15)


KJ Lesnick

1. Roll, for one

2. F-14 has sustained M2.5 @ 75,000 feet, although both those numbers are above its published specs. Higher performance does not automatically mean or is limited to top speed, BTW. It's worthy of note that very few gun/AIM-9 dogfights take place @ M2.4- M2.5.

3. My information is over a fairly wide range. One of the big contributors is the lifting body.

 

[KJ_Lesnick]

F-14D

1. Roll, for one

That sounds about right -- the roll rate on the F-15 is quite good. Roll rate can be quite useful in air to air combat. Help's get you into position (on your side) for sharp, high-G turns.

2. F-14 has sustained M2.5 @ 75,000 feet, although both those numbers are above its published specs.

That mach/altitude sounds entirely believable, especially with the light wing-loading of the F-14 (lot of lift, you can fly nice and high). I don't know how often you'd go up that high as I think you'd need a pressure-suit of some sort.

Higher performance does not automatically mean or is limited to top speed, BTW. It's worthy of note that very few gun/AIM-9 dogfights take place @ M2.4- M2.5.

I know that. That's why I asked whether you were referring to wing-loading vs thrust-weight ratio or speed...

3. My information is over a fairly wide range. One of the big contributors is the lifting body.

So even with the F-14D, there are still areas of the airspeed range where the F-15C still beats the F-14? Regardless, it's pretty amazing how much of an improvement the GE F110-GE400 made to the Tomcat.


KJ Lesnick