Engines under consideration for the early Sabre II / Super-7 !!

Deino

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Hi guys ... I need some help regarding the engines under consideration for the very early "Sabre II" / "Super-7" because I found some very crude "babelfish" translations of early engine-"competition" when Western assistance was still under way !

All what I could extract is that there were the following engines under consideration:

• Pratt & Whitney PW1212 turbojet, itself an improved version of the basic American J52 with features of the JT8D offering faster response to throttle movements, greater fuel economy and stall-free operation (to be designated J52-P-409 in US service and proposed without afterburner for the EA-6B Prowler).

• Pratt & Whitney PW1216 turbojet [unsure modus on] related to an update kit for the Chinese WP-7BM or even WP-13 with Western items ... is that true ??? [unsure modus off] with a thrust of 5400 kp and 7425 kp with afterburner (air-flow of 81 kg/s) and a unit price of around US $ 2 Mio.

The weaknesses of both engines were especially their age – being originally developed to power the A-4 Skyhawk in 1962 and the Fishbed itself – and some necessary changes to the intake-design. Additional it would have required a strengthened airframe adding around 135 kg of additional weight.

• Pratt & Whitney PW1120 turbofan, with the highest thrust but also the highest price of all contenders with 6122 kp and 9387 kp with afterburner (air-flow of 81 kg/s).

• General Electric F404 turbofan with a thrust of 4790 kp and 7711 kp with afterburner (air-flow of 68 kg/s) for a unit price of around 1,8 Mio. US $.

• Turbo Union RB.199-127/128 turbofan with a thrust of 4123 kp and 7430 kp with afterburner (air-flow of 68 kg/s) for a similar unit price.

• At least until the final cancellation of the Super-7 another contender appeared in the form of the WP-14 “Kunlun” which was at a too early state of development. (????)


Can anyone help me out with these contenders and / or some more technical aspects ????

Thanks in advance,

Deino ???
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Pratt & Whitney PW1212 was later designated J52-P-409. Its a real project, but I question how much better it would be than the existing engine- its an old technology turbojet.

PW1120 was developed from the F100, mainly by trimming down the bypass ratio to a small value (0.2 ish I believe) that made it a "leaky turbojet". Intended for the Lavi and replacing J79 in Phantom upgrades, its really a larger engine than the other contenders.
 

Deino

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overscan said:
... its really a larger engine than the other contenders.

And finally rejected because it required the most intensive airframe changes !!

Do You have any information about the PW1216 ???

Cheers, Deino
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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(On February 16, 2004)
縝 pulls winding story The Fc-1 Fighter Story which hawk of legend - - Fc-1 fighter plane the Kunlun Mountains is born

Author: Yellow Sea

On September 16, 2002, China and Pakistan cooperate a second-generation exportation light fight nose prototype, after delays many years finally to hold start the riveting ceremony in Chengdu. In 2002 Zhuhai コスユケ, this is called Chinese fighter aircraft (Fc-1, interior still called for ultra 7) the lignin overall dimension machine prototype prepares from all walks of life is focused attention on, the star which becomes in コスユケ.
America, England, Russia, center the engine big ratio spells
1980 ages intermediate stages, the Pakistani air force facing the Indian new fighter plane MiG-29 threat, an expenditure large amount of money minute wholesale purchase entered F-16a/b, this batch of fighter plane in repeatedly set up the meritorious military service with in the Afghan Soviet troops's air fight, did not have a loss from the body, made the deep impression to Palestine. However F-16 said to Pakistan too expensively, thereupon the military planned and China cooperates develops one kind of advanced light fighter plane, with former height supplement. At that time mainland fighter plane industry old eldest brother shenyang the airplane industry group (SAC) similarly faced MiG-29 the pressure, was developing with all one's strength J-8B, and used "the peace model" with US the plan (Peace the Pearl namely 8-2 project) to implement the improvement, therefore gathered naturally falls in because of J-7M artillery but to be red, also was J-7P for the Pakistan country improvement the Chengdu airplane industry group (CAC) on the body.
In 1986, Palestine proposed in J-7M/P foundation to develop the new fighter plane, because in India and Pakistan war F-86 saber (Sabre) once by outstanding mobile rout match, for commemorates this kind of meritorious service fighter plane and the hope inherits his/her fine blood relationship, the new machine naming for the Saber II, China is called J-7CP (the code number CP project), CP is China and Pakistan gathers stated, takes meaning of the bilateral cooperation. The design initial period mentality is take annihilates 7M/P as the foundation, the reference J-8B the air operated layout to become, modifies in a big way is the airplane fore-body, lets in air, in front of the wing including two sides the reason additionally builds the predestined affinity mobile flap, the replacement new turbofan engine and so on, after but the basic retention J-7 shapes shapes to save the cost and the reduction development time and the difficulty. This plan first proposed by Cheng Fei that, latter is authorized the American Grumman company after Palestine to perform to decorate the consummation, satisfies the tactical technology request.
In 1987 the spring, American Pu favored the engine company to recommend three engines plans to China and Pakistan to supply the choice: The PW1216 turbojet, the difficulty most lowers also suits the China aviation industry present shape, unit price 130 ten thousand US dollars. Its predecessor PW1212 was in 1962 is non- afterburner J-52 engine growing which the A-4 attack airplane developed, could this for the core improvement be the PW1216 two spool turbojet. The PW1216 most greatly military thrust force 5,400 kilograms, latter burn the thrust force 7,425 kilograms, the thrust ratio 6.6, the technology only had 1960 ages standards, the performance is also lowest.
The PW1120 turbofan engine technical difficulty is highest, unit price 200 ten thousand US dollars, were Pu favor the company to reduce the performance by the F100 engine technology to become at that time, also was starting machine which the Israeli male lion (Lavi) used. Pu favors the company not not clearly is, Israel the secret provided China in 1986 two PW1120 prototype to use in to develop J-10, at present soon finalizes turbofan WS10 series engines is does by this section engine treads the foot stone, was the technology is equal to the F100-PW-229 advanced engine. The PW1120 engine lets in air the current capacity is 81 kilograms/seconds, greatly surpasses J-7 air intakes, causes the airplane to have to change two sides to let in air, after so center the section fuselage and the air intake all must undergo the big surgery, the necessary fuel oil system and the nose also must carry on some revisions, causes the cost, the time and the difficulty can far surpass anticipated. The PW1120 most greatly military thrust force 6,122 kilograms, latter burn the thrust force 9,387 kilograms, the thrust ratio 7.3, the technology had 1970 ages standards.
Another section is the F404 turbofan engine, the technical difficulty time to PW1120, unit price 180 ten thousand US dollars. Uses this section engine the question and PW1120 is same, after needs largely to revise the airplane the center section fuselage, but because engine thrust force smaller, lets in air the current capacity also quite slightly, can with J-7 air intakes to be accommodating, therefore may omit modifies the air intake. The F404 most greatly military thrust force 4,790 kilograms, latter burn the thrust force 7,711 kgs, the thrust ratio 7.86, had at that time the most advanced technical standards, except the thrust force slightly disliked outside the insufficiency, was the dynamic system which China and Pakistan most admired at that time, at that time but obtained this section engine the opportunity not to be big.
In the same year at the end of April, Rolls Royce company also to Chinese recommendation tornado bomber on Rb-199-127/128 three spool turbofan engine, unit price 160 ten thousand US dollars. In order to install this kind to have several fuel oils control system departments series first to set out the motive, after J-7CP the air intake and center the section fuselage similarly needs to carry on the large revision; Uses this section engine the advantage is cheaper, moreover the Chinese experts relative are more familiar to it, because the Rolls Royce company has given west the power peacefully to produce the history to wear (Spey) the Mk202 engine, latter is uses in to fly the leopard type bomber WS-9. Moreover in flew the leopard plan (code number 70 projects) to set up before a development in 1979, the three machines department expert once goes to the German MBB Corporation to inspect the tornado bomber, the discussion introduces the matters concerned, early had the collection research to the RB199 engine material (only because fighter plane to ask a price too high and is not willing to output essential technology to fizzle out). The RB199 -127/128 most greatly military thrust force 4,123 kilograms, after are biggest burn the thrust force 7,430 kilograms, the thrust ratio 7.6, similarly has the advanced standard, but the thrust force still disliked the insufficiency, but obtained the opportunity actually was higher than F404.
Sums up said that, four section engines are most advanced by F404, also may let entire machine research and development cost reduction; RB199 is next, the possibility which obtains is higher than F404; PW1120 although thrust force biggest, but the price highest, the entire machine modification are most; The PW1216 performance and the technology all fell behind, only can do for the reserve engine. The US although proposes three plans, but truly sells is PW1216, moreover two section engines both are using of the set-off, because US does not want to provide China from the start a more advanced technology. Analyzes PW1216, the total life amounts to for 8,,000 hours, approaches with the organism life, uses its advantage is the fighter plane air intake and center Duan Jishen does not have to transform after the small advantage. The US emphasized PW1216 has the very strong competitive ability, is higher with Chinese aviation technology compatibility, at that time both countries once discussed Puhui Yuli positive to cooperate live produce the matters concerned.
But, US did not know shenyang the daybreak aircraft engine company already cooperates in 1984 and Xi'an, the union WS-9 with WP-13 merits developments performance to surpass PW1216 WP-14, this also is the Kunlun Mountains medium thrust force high performance engine which Zhuhai コスユケ declares a position in 2002. Kunlun Mountains and the Kunlun Mountains I outer diameter 882 male thousandths of a Yuan, the total length 4,,635 male thousandths of a Yuan, the most greatly military thrust force 5,165 kilograms, after are biggest burn the thrust force 7,300 kilograms, the thrust ratio 6.6. In 2002 tests a car and this present existence Zhuhai's Kunlun Mountains II, two data respectively increases is 5,500 kilogram and 7,800 kilograms, the thrust ratio increases is 7, moreover the oil consumption drops, pushes the strength to be higher than except PW1120 outside three section competes the sign engine, moreover had achieved the installing equipment practical stage, the progress overtook ultra 7, to this year test flight. Therefore, even if Russia supplies the Rd-93a engine to have the question, Cheng Feiye may first use the Kunlun Mountains II installing equipment test flight, finally to at present enters the test stage Kunlun Mountains III to equip ultra 7 again. Said on the technology that, the Kunlun Mountains II technology majority of has surpassed ghost 2000-5 M53-P2 starting machine, the Kunlun Mountains III technology straight pursues the Rd-93A engine, becomes in the present world the performance higher turbojet, moreover has a cost lower merit.
Unifies the America and Russia fine aerodynamics to accomplish
With English, the beautiful engine merchant fiery competition compares, is watches critically as customer's Bakke Stan. American Grumman company in 1986 official participation fighter plane design, and coordinates Pu to favor the company three plans to put out at the beginning of step becomes the fruit. But, after the Pakistani air force studies believed that, the Saber II mobility is unable to contend with main match MiG-29 and to coordinate the F-16 combat, moreover does not fill 3 hundred million US dollars development costs too to be high, the Pakistani Department of Defense resisted the saber II initial period plan in 1988.
The standard department is consulting Cheng Feihou to make the modification: After first is changes to nearby the belt the strip 40 trapezoids the swept wing as well as the similar F-16 pair ventral fin; Two sides air inlets let in air the efficiency in the high attack angle flight time not to be good, thereupon leans the air inlet in 10, improves the fighter plane the high attack angle maneuvering performance, becomes this machine unique rib type air intake. Still retained as for the after body section annihilates 7 structures, machine the abdomen installed a 23-2 double barrel cannon. The Grumann company thought will rename the ultra 7 plans to be able to have the future very much, latent including will use MiG-21/ with the household to J-7, F-5, the Phantom II and so on is treating the replacement the air force, at that time estimated could surpass 200 the market demand to 1990 ages, about unit price only 1,000 ten thousand US dollars, extremely will have the competitive ability in third world country. But because erupts 64 events, Washington D.C. carries on the military sanction to the mainland, forces the Grumman company to withdraw from the cooperation, but actually returned to the mainland ood road for the Mig designing bureau.
After the stop more than half a year, in 1990 Cheng Fei announced continues to fulfill the contract to push favorable balance of trade 7, Bakke stent allocates the partial funds. Let fly delightedly is, the Pakistani air force provides F-16a Block15 for this secret to supply to fly the reference, is sent to after the Chinese test flight courtyard detailed test flight does each kind of experiment, then the detailed decomposition mapping sets up a file. This development causes the male lion fighter plane material object and the massive technical material which Israel provides is more complete, for J-10 initial period development, the national military standard storehouse establishment, the airborne tactical improvement, the aviation industry enters step has provided the certain help. The nowadays ultra 7 and J-10 all to absorb Pakistani F-16A to fly controls the system superior spot, former visible was the F-16 simplification version, latter then carried forward it.
Looked from the present that, the US military sanction and 菲 flies speaking of Cheng Fei is is bigger than loses, this is the American initial expectations is inferior to, ultra 7 enters the mainland leadership, both countries cooperation development stage. Were allowed to discover from 1990 ages initial period wind tunnel test picture and the scientific research article that, the mainland was quite thorough to the F-16 research, at that time once spread the flying general reverse to imitate F-16, perhaps Pakistan once hoped Cheng Fei duplicated F-16, but then mainland aviation industry root book was unable to imitate F-16, in the material, flew controls the system, the dynamic system and so on has the question. Therefore ultra 7 was still the only choice, is examining the Grumann company to stay behind loses post-natal, Palestine proposed further improves the air operated layout, proposes the high synthesis operational capacity the program, however power question both sides have not both solved the brilliant plan.
In 1990 China and Soviet Union became reconciled, because 菲 flew J-8B performance to be low, cooperated "the peace model" with US the plan and further because for to exceed expenditures was terminated, the mainland then selected and purchased the fighter plane to Soviet Union to fill the war strength gap. Although in commented chooses in the process the MiG-29 defeat to give Su-27, but the Mig designing bureau took the opportunity for the struggle to propose on own initiative the improvement J-7, J-8 and the cooperation develops the ultra 7 achievement both sides cooperation the touchstone. China, Russia reached the agreement in 1992, will entrust with Fc-1 the exportation serial number, next year June completes at the beginning of a step of design, the development handbook determined this machine was a section multipurpose front fighter plane, besides used the air-to-air guided missile and machine the artillery attack airborne target, but also had guides and the non- guiding weapon scope of attack goal ability. The Mig designing bureau was in charge the thorough settlement to puzzle China and Pakistan for a long time the air operated layout and the engine question, simultaneously helped to fly settles afterwards changed not big flight performance and the fighter plane ruler inch, the air operated model is also delivered the Russia central hydromechanics research institute to catch a chill the revision. While this, the Kerry not husband company also introduces the Rd-33 turbofan engine with the daybreak aircraft engine company to carry on the negotiations, the Russia side prepares to sell the Rd-33k engine which is the MiG-29K ship-borne fighter plane uses, the thrust force compares Rd-33 to increase 5%>%>, after will buy into 100 Russia Fang Huifen the stage to live produces the technology to transmit China. But, at present reaches a verdict is Fc-1 provides the promotion margin of safety RD-93A improvement engine.
The Fc-1 first ancestor actually with J-7CP is the same time product. In 1986, the Soviet air force proposed the light front fighter aircraft (LFI) plans (is called project 2000), this machine originally plans in 2005 serves, will take MiG-21 the successor massive exportation. The Mig designing bureau proposed with F-16 suitable 1.33, the mobility under to MiG-29, the navigation electricity technical standards is not higher, the cost only is MiG-29 70% $$+34>. But the Soviet front air force needs is the multipurpose fighter plane, 1.33 because of is the pure spatial superior fighter plane is rejected, its design only then was delivered from oppression until 1992, is inexpensive given to Cheng Feiyi receives in exchange with China's long-term cooperation. After Cheng Feijing revises uses its dynamic system and the partial air operated designs, after center section fuselage large revision, but Grumann designs the front section fuselage and the rib type air intake and so on is retained becomes own characteristic, -1 has not inherited 1.33 from functional analysis FC instead comparatively to look like F-16. Some kind of degree said that, Fc-1 is facilitates by China, American, the Russia broken day uncultivated land hand in hand designs, simultaneously has F-16 and the Mig machine merit, likely is drafting the cold war conclusion.
The Fc-1 cooperation document is a Mig designing bureau's good chess, although makes a profit most abundantly temporarily possibly sells the RD-93A engine the Kerry not husband designing bureau, but finally has broken Su the Huo group's monopoly, kills a bloody road for the bilateral cooperation. The Mig designing bureau proposed in 1994 to the Chinese aviation import and export main corporation that, in 菲 flies makes one kind to fuse 1.44 partial technologies, to use the canard shaped forward wing, the Rd-93 enhancement thrust force engine, the MiG-31 Sbi-16 phase array radar four generations of half medium fighter plane, lets 菲 fly can defeat Cheng Fei to J-10 reto recapture the mainland the chief fighter plane to live the producing status. The Mig designing bureau in 1997 also once to Chinese visiting delegation demonstrated at that time LFI (at present called ATA) two kind of configuration seek the cooperation, but equally all dies without a sickness together with on, because Chinese this time most will pay attention was J-10 soon to throw produces and improves, as well as has held the beginning to grind in advance, will explain is "Chinese F-22 " the heavy background machine progress. Certainly, 菲 flies the imposing manner like rainbow which the situation is not continuously good and becomes flies, is decided the Russian does have the opportunity the precondition, but the outside might recently promote sales from the Mig group to the mainland MiG-29M2 to see, the armed force sold the situation not to be really good to the Mig group. Even if is a situation excellent Su the Huo group, whether also continues after ten years in the mainland to come to a stop the footsteps to embrace the suspicion, perhaps the Fc-1 cooperation will be the Mig group in the mainland high tide and ↓the sound.
Certain people refer to Fc-1 aerodynamic force the layout not to be advanced, is not a section good airplane, this is had not understood Palestine proposed tactical technology request, operational object and developing process. Exactly on the contrary, it gathers China, American, the Russia tripartite outstanding talented people designs, with becomes in the performance this between makes a better balance; The air operated contour conforms to Palestine to request, has not deviated the achievement to assist F-16 low files multipurpose fighter plane this goal. Reliable is practical but does not request too advanced, this is the good airplane which the Pakistan base Stan air force hoped, take the second-generation fighter plane as the design foundation, the new fighter plane which the fusion third generation fighter plane technology becomes suits them very much. Fc-1 and Indian LCA compares respectively has the length, overall performance Fc-1 also slightly strong, its research and development cost far is lower than LCA, said this already unusual foot to Pakistan ↓. Must objectively understand in the world ↓the majority country, must embark the analysis question from its angle, everything is by no means US'S viewpoint appraises all by advanced countries You Qi.Everybody knew Taiwan F-ck-1 cannot export, 10 tons levels light fighter planes future only will have Jas-39 and Fc-1, other aviation powerful nations all will not have the same level fighter plane to join the war group. So-called "is not advanced" "conservatively", "is obsolete" and so on is in fact the advanced countries stands in the market angle one promotion method, certainly cannot truly use the household on behalf of the majority the point of view.
Market and design
China and Pakistan have paid 1 hundred million 4 surely US dollars developments expenses up to 1996, before of of of the original year's end invests 1 hundred million 5 surely US dollars to live again produces 5 prototypes, one half pays for Palestine, using of for the test flight, the static test, the navigation electricity and the weapon experiment, and receives the first squadron 12 airplanes in 1999, are least for Pakistan country ノ $$&test00114-32155 Cheng Fei hopes in 15 years the exportation and the Pakistani similar numeral, even achieved 350 take back the development cost, if all smooth will invest 2 hundred million US dollars quantities to produce.
But along with Cheng Fei in the design, the trial manufacturing annihilates the massive Western Europe advanced computer conformity manufacture system which 10 prototypes processes grasps (CIMS), the new craft technology partially shifts Fc-1, in addition increases one after another the wind tunnel test recent data, the airplane characteristics target slightly adjusts many times, causes the development expense from to approach 3 hundred million US dollars to rise to 6 hundred million US dollars. If becomes flies is unable to obtain 400 above the total order form, the airplane unit price inevitably rises from present nearly 1,,500 ten thousand US dollars to 1,,800 ten thousand US dollars or is higher. But looks all around the whole world, has the F-16 approximately 75 %>%>above performance also the unit price only has its half fighter plane radically to have no alternative, the west because lives produces surges upward with the scientific research cost, is impossible to promote F-5 and so on to suit the majority country the high C/P value fighter plane, at present meets this requirement only to have China, Russia. Cheng Fei Zhuhai コスユケ summarized the Fc-1 characteristic in 2002, can hit the files in the beginning of the 21st century fighter aircraft neutrality, in the price under the files, is must strongest actually can fight with the powerhouse, suits third world country equipment. From country Air Force commander's the and so on visit Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepali date, Zimbabwe response said that, the market prospect comparatively has guarantees bonds, some of them had the order intention, after コスユケ conclude namely specially rush to the Chengdu on-the-spot investigation to discuss.
> Synthesizes said front that, stops after the F-16 approximately 10 years produces and massively inexpensive dumps to the market, the Fc-1 market share still might careful be optimistic. At present directly threatens Fc-1 is about 2005 starts to push the market MAKO, T-50 and China teaches 15 fights trainer aircrafts, because of from the improvement elasticity, the performance and even the unit price, Fc-1 is possible not to have the few superiority to be possible to say. Moreover People's Liberation Army the agreement has not until now purchased this machine, counter- but the vision goes to the cost to be lower, the performance better J-7F (nickname slightly to J-10), also sells internally the prospect to Fc-1 to throw down the shadow.
Synthesizes the Fc-1 chief designer, 611 chief designers concurrently vice- Manager Yang Wei, becomes flies foreign trade place Assistant Deputy Office Chief Le Qiang, project Manager Li Xiaotian and so on says to the author, Fc-1 is unifies the East and West fighter plane special skill, completely faces the world market and the completely open airplane, summarizes with the outside cooperation for invests, develops, altogether takes on the risk, the sharing benefit principle together together. This machines and tools have, the low cost, the low risk small, high are mobile, the great range, fine special skill and so on take off and landing performance and advanced navigation electricity, weapon, is the reasonable airplane which center the small country may bear. The Mig designing bureau added into the cooperation after 1990 ages, the overall change mainly had: The radar covers by the circular changes resembles the ellipse; Outside the air intake the side increases greatly plunders nearby the angle the strip; Cancellation main plane wing fence; Uses all moves the type flap; Increase fuselage shoe/behind strip; Ventral fin will move in the future side the strip from the engine compartment place, this kind of similar Su-27 design will cause the transverse stability to surpass the Grewe graceful company original ventral fin design; The vertical tail passes through the revision, gives up J-7 forms, changes by similar MiG-29; The engine changes Rd-93A by F404. The brand-new design Fc-1 its organism intensity largely increases strongly, climbs and changes the ability distinct enhancement, the close combat mobility approaches F-16.This machine afterwards again carried on two times of significant modification: Flies controls the system to change two by the hydraulic pressure mechanical type (longitudinal line to pass on, crosswise hydraulic pressure) the line biography flies controls, causes the maneuverability, the pilot to operate the intensity, the performance and becomes the instinct mutually to give dual attention to. In September, 2001, this machine nearly enters the official design stage from the frozen state.
The western fighter plane for flaunted oneself in technical superiority and so on the electron, machine manufacture, precise processing, expected achieved high invests high delivers, but various subsystems necessary are often uncoordinated and the waste resources outside, this is the mainland designs the selling fighter plane to have for the first time to avoid. Actually the Mig designing bureau also once to became flies provides one kind of advanced wing section plan, because the cost and the time consideration has not become flies admits, but became flies has accepted on the current international in particular Mig designing bureau's most advanced fighter plane system design law. This is the Mig becomes from MiG-29 to 1.44 accumulations experiences, is called the top layer design law, this is one kind from the top downward, simplifies the complex question the systems engineering advanced concept. The method is first does to the weapon whole decides the position, then according to needs to divide exquisitely, decides on various subsystems the standard, then according to the above selects each item of board installation, like this can ↓enhance the efficiency and reduce the waste to is smallest. Fc-1 gives up the complex four lines biography fly controls the system, the whole localization for the stable layout airplane, then according to needs to join the longitudinal static unstable two lines biography to fly controls the system, effectively gives dual attention to the performance and the cost, this is the top layer design law in this machine best portrayal.
The design reveals flies the strength
In 1991 original airspace division 132 factories (Chengdu aircraft factory) and 611 research institutes merges, forms the Chengdu airplane industry group company, is responsible for the wing design by 132 factories, 611 are responsible for the fuselage, the navigation electricity, the system coordination and the system design. The third generation J-7 (E / F / G), Fc-1, J-10 (according to to say also will include future to J-14 heavy fighter aircrafts, J-15 outer space fighter aircrafts, ship-borne fighter aircraft and X-33 spatial day flying machine and so on) can continue to use this way, 611 will undertake the design main force.
Fc-1 is the Chinese Communist Party introduces from the technology to realizes the entire machine technical output significant transition, although in 1999 China and Pakistan sign the contract, but the navigation electricity cannot carry out lets the development advancement fall again the rubber, this also is a principal factor which this machine could not slowly be published. To 2001, the Palestine incumbent air force chief staff officers indicated must accelerate to develop with all one's strength, the navigation electricity first uses the Chinese system, the work can truly launch, the wooden model and the technical condition and the technical condition freeze is to in the same year completes under this background. However Palestine requests extremely to be also severe, stipulated must flyin June, 2003, otherwise the project has the possibility cancellation. By now but 611 aggressively were carrying on annihilates 10 test flights to adjust, to annihilate 10 pair of starting machine to send the chart and to annihilate 10 simulators developments work, the work has the difficulty.
611 throughout are in the mainland leading level in the advanced air operated layout research, Fc-1 uses the very many advanced designs technology in the design process, reasonably solves the airplane volume limited problem, the active control resistance increases, overcomes in the air operated strength design to the moment of force non-linear phenomenon suppression contour difficulty question, reduced the possibility which the test flight has an accident. The landing gear and the fuselage connection, the wing body fusion connection is the structural design and the intensity computation difficulty, according to annihilates 10 experiences and the western airplanes characteristic, determines the nature of unifies with the quantitative analysis, concurrently receives the America and Russia advanced fighter plane design experience, forms conforms to two airplanes unique computational methods, reasonably causes the structure to be reliable.611 once took the lead in to annihilate on 10 to use the titanium alloy forging, was Fc-1 are many place uses the titanium alloy structure to build the foundation. Fc-1 from seals the body to the design parameter, the bridge piece all uses the overall fuel tank advanced design technology. The airplane characteristics fit and unfit quality from select a material obviously spot, 611 from the overseas introduction advanced selection thought, the formulation integrity selection standard and the control system, reduced the acquisition of material expense, largely reduces the performance test, tries to process and so on the link, saves the cartography and the prototype development time.
611 through formulate the integer position design standard, realizes by several transmissions substitutions analogy system. Entire machine structure numerical control components 100 %>%>several, the data material between various functional groups and the design, the manufacture can ↓sharing, the entire machine design drawing complete computer and several, uses the 3D several models, can directly carry on the operation place principle, the structure and the system coordination, the fast structure analysis and the improvement, produces the 2D graph. Several prototypes technologies also apply in annihilate on 10 pair of planes and Fc-1, through establishes the entire machine structure several prototypes, during each specialty carries on data sharing, sends in front of the chart to carry on the structure pre- equipment to the essential spot to be coordinated and dryly to ford the analysis, to entire machine may move the part to make the movement to imitate really with the analysis, reduces designs dryly fords with is uncoordinated. The structure finite element modelling is in the structure analysis the work load big, the time urgent work, the intensity room through a set in view of the airplane structure fast finite element modelling law and the work flow, skilled grasps the PATRAN software and carries on two times of developments, causes the software function to be stronger, largely reduces the intensity analysis time, guarantees the design drawing on time to complete.
Looks at the mainland military aviation by Fc-1
The Taiwan aeronautical engineering educational world certain public figures once to Fc-1 proposed a more objective appraisal, pointed out the mainland recent years not only to the foreign introduction flying stock position design software, and established the entire wrap personnel and the equipment system, has held the beginning in the airplane design technology to be in the lead Taiwan. The mainland recent years had in the armed force civil airplane technology leaps forward the type breakthrough, but Taiwan's airplane design manufacture development tended to the stop, and had the talented person to flow out the phenomenon, fell behind the mainland in the massive aviation area of technology, even possibly tries to catch up by south Han.
But the outside still disliked to the mainland aviation industry understanding conservatively, for example rumbled 7A not only was the mainland, is the world first total position, the entire electronic cartography service airplane. And west flies speaking of Cheng Fei, its design method has not been at variance with the European America, in lives produces in the technology also to overtake Western Europe, the overall disparity only is the fund investment insufficiency and the reliability waits for the promotion. Appraises Fc-1 how under this background? One kind of weapon development first should request the decision by its tactic, the use technique technique instead is secondary. If is only staring at the Fc-1 quantification target height, but has not paid attention to the design method, the strategic thought, the tactical demand, the specification target and so on the essential key point, will have the enormous scotoma. Many people have not noted, Fc-1 is the big land first kind of open style design, can compatible East and West equip, by the western fighter plane standard and the board installation specification design, with the western-style craft manufacture export model fighter plane, the similar way design selling internally fighter plane J-10, J-11 in the future (Su-27SK, Su-30MKK) also performs by the western standard to improve, this kind will connect rails with the international mainstream standard will be the significant strategic technology connection, will symbolize the mainland military science and technology development and the world tidal current with step.
Compares with F-16, the Fc-1 performance will be somewhat low, but excessively rigid digital height, but does not do has (LCA) pointed, the systematic thinking mode makes the science to compare, will be able to blur the focal point. Objectively appraised some kind military needs the strategic judgement, not only must take the performance index the height, should embark from its research and development background, sets at by the macroscopic thought it in the reasonable military and the industrial system analyzes, the side can obtain one kind of weapon the accurate fit and unfit quality. The people should J-10 from Fc-1 more understandings, then analyzes Cheng Fei the overall design to live produces the ability and the successor machine level, again further weighs the mainland entire aviation industry by this standard, compared with the Chinese and foreign disparity, can have comparatively clear Chu like this the cognition.
Retranslated for you, Deino.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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According to my new translation, it seems PW1216 was a further improved J52.

What do you think?
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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CATIC and Grumman began design of the Super 7 in November 1988. Intended as an improvement of the Sabre II based on the F-7M offered to Pakistan, which was rejected due to high development cost ($300 million) and inability to counter India's MiG-29s. Touted as a low cost, low technology fighter to complement the F-16 in a high-low mix, with a projected market of 200 Super-7s with a unit price tag of under $10m. Incorporates a new forward fuselage, cockpit, redesigned wing, RB.199 (17,000lb st) or RM12 (18,000lb st) engine, nosewheel steering and wing stations for 4 AAMs. APG-66 radar proposed. About 18 sq ft added to the wing to reduce loading to about 63 lb/sq ft and added leading edge slats and manouvre flaps. Initial 9 month development phase intended to end in July 1989, after which a prototype was to be built. Grumman were to build the forward fuselage, the remainder of the airframe being supplied by CATIC for final assembly and flight testing by Grumman in the USA.

Source:

Air International, January 1989
 

Deino

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overscan said:
According to my new translation, it seems PW1216 was a further improved J52.

What do you think?


I think You are right, as the important sentence is here:

The PW1216 turbojet, the difficulty most lowers also suits the China aviation industry present shape, unit price 130 ten thousand US dollars. Its predecessor PW1212 was in 1962 is non- afterburner J-52 engine growing which the A-4 attack airplane developed, could this for the core improvement be the PW1216 two spool turbojet. The PW1216 most greatly military thrust force 5,400 kilograms, latter burn the thrust force 7,425 kilograms, the thrust ratio 6.6, the technology only had 1960 ages standards, the performance is also lowest.

Even if it seems to be the same text, there are some additions which seem to be omitted in my version !

http://airkiller.diy.myrice.com/pla/fc1.htm

... and maybe a slightly different version:

http://www.diic.com.tw/comment/06/06930217.htm with a very crude translation at:
http://www.pakistanidefenceforum.com/lofiversion/index.php/t21073-1700.html

The part I may hece misunderstod is this one:

3rd, the PW1216 engine, thrust augmentation thrust force 7425kg, maximum thrust 5400kg, the thrust ratio 6.6, unit price 1.3 million US dollars, are the PW1212 two axle thrust augmentation type 涡spurt the modification. Pu favors the company the concrete plan is in the PW1212 engine foundation, uses for parts Chinese WP-7BM or the WP-13 engine thrust augmentation tube body and the corresponding system, constitutes PW1216. This round total life may amount to for 8,000 hours, the airplane air intake and the fuselage does not need to make any modification. Pu favors the company to be quite self-confident to this plan. Pu favored the company also to discuss this round to unite the production in China, as well as with became flies the company to coordinate the PW1216 engine to install in annihilates on -7CP the technical plan.

Quite strange I don't know, what or who is "Pu" (maybe Pratt & Whitney) or "Palestine" ???

Cheers & Thanks a lot, Deino ;D
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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I'll translate your one, it looks a little different, and see what it comes out like.

My sense is, that these choices apply to Saber II (Jan 1987). By Super 7 time (1988) the Lavi was cancelled (Aug 1987) leaving the PW1120 in serious doubt for production.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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OK!

Jan 1987, Pakistan government awarded the Grumman corporation a study contract to integrate a US engine and avionics into the F-7M Airguard.

The study also considered installation of the F404, PW1120 and PW1216 engines. In-flight refuelling, airframe strengthening and compatibility with US missiles are being considered, with a target price of $15m (including $3.5m for the F-7M airframe). Pakistan wanted to use US military aid to pay for it, and produce the fighter at the Kamra facility using Chengdu supplied airframes. Total 100 required in 1989-1992 timescale, total anticipated cost of $1.5 billion.

Air International, April 1987
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Info request: PW1216 engine (late 1980s)

So, anyone seen info on the PW1216?

The Airforceworld article says:

3rd, the PW1216 engine, thrust augmentation thrust force 7425kg, maximum thrust 5400kg, the thrust ratio 6.6, unit price 130 ten thousand US dollars, are the PW1212 double axis thrust augmentation type 恦spurt the modification. Pu favors the company the concrete plan is in in the PW1212 engine foundation, uses for parts Chinese Wp-7bm or the Wp-13 engine thrust augmentation tube body and should the system, constitutes PW1216. This round total life may reach when 8000 is small, the airplane air intake and the fuselage do not need to make any modification. Pu favors the company to be quite self-confident to this plan.

Pu favored the company also to discuss this round to unite the production in China, as well as with became flies the company to coordinate the PW1216 engine to install in annihilates on -7cp the technique technique plan.

I believe it is saying it consists of a PW1212 (non-afterburning J52 variant) with the afterburner from the WP-7BM / WP-13. The J-52 wasn't used with an afterburner in US service, to the best of my knowledge.

J52-P-409 is an improved performance version of the J52-P-408 and J52-P-8 engines and is rated at approximately 12,500 pounds of takeoff thrust.

PW1212 = J52-P-409
 

TinWing

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I concur with Overscan's assessment of the P&W designation system.

Just to give an example:

The proposed 15,000lb st non-afterburning F100 turbofan was designated PW1115.

Similarly, the PW1120 was a 20,000lb st afterburning turbojet.

It follows that the PW1212 was a 12,000lb st variant of the J52.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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The afterburning thrust quoted in the Chinese article, 7425kg, is 16,370lb. The dry thrust is 5400kg, 12,000lb. It fits.
 

elmayerle

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But it could easily be used as the basis for an afterburning turbojet, much as its larger sibling, the JT8D, got an afterburner as the RM8.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Specs for the J52-P-408A, the immediate predecessor of PW1212:

Dry Thrust: 11,200lb st (49.8kN)
Mass flow: 65kg/sec
Length: 3.02m
Diameter: 0.81
Dry mass: 1053kg
Pressure ratio: 14.6:1
Config: 5/7/1/2
Combustor: cannular
SFC: approx 0.9
T/W ratio: 4.83
Pressure rise per stage: 1.25:1

For comparison, the R-11/13/25 series used a 3/5/1/1 configuration, SFC 0.93-0.96, pressure ratio 8.7-9.55, with dry thrust from 8500lb st - 9040lb, from a mass flow of 63.7 (R-11F) up to 67.9 (R-25). Weight was 1173-1210kg. Pressure ratio per stage: 1.09-1.19.

Therefore, the attractive features of the J52 derivative were:

Mass flow and physical dimensions exactly comparable to R-11/13/WP-7 type engines, so no big modifications needed to inlets or structure
Lower SFC
Higher thrust
probably similar weight (once afterburner added)
Older technology than rival engines- making it more exportable, more affordable, and easier for China to license build, yet still definitely more advanced than China's then current state of the art.
 

elmayerle

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I'm certain that same basic core also being usable for a civilian turbofan engine would've increased the attractiveness of the PW1212. After all, the JT8D was only hurriedly put together to save Boeing's 727 program at it's very start when RR's intransigence against building a proper support infrastructure in the US, including manufacturing capability, threatened to kill a major launch order. A RR engine had been the original engine it had been designed around, but Rolls' attitude forced them to find a new engine.
 

Deino

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Here are two very intersting posts from "fltgshdw" at the Keymags-forum:

Some Background and Statistics

Back in the early 1980s, there was a period of time when the US was considering the sale of jet engines to China. The three Western engines that were usually mentioned as contendors were the PW1120, the F404, and Europe's RB199.

These three were often mentioned as contendors, I might add, for a variety of lightweight fighter competitions at the time, including the Gripen, the Lavi, India's LCA, and Yugoslavia's Novi Avion. At one point, China was reportedly contemplating a new "clean sheet" design, based around one of these three engines, sometimes referred to as the "F-12" in the Western press.

The PW1120 was a derivative of the F100-220, sharing the same core, but with a smaller, less complex low spool. It was intended to be lower in thrust, but easier to maintain than the F100, and was eventually selected to power Israel's abortive Lavi fighter project.

The F404, which also powered the F-18A/B and C/D models, was selected to power Sweden's JAS-39 Gripen, and more recently, India's initial batch of Tejas fighters.

The RB199, of course, powers the Panavia Tornado. No other customers were ever secured.

Although I hadn't seen mention of a PW1212, I would point out that the J-52 was most closely related to the early JT8 turbojet, not to the JT8D turbofan. The J-52 (a non-afterburning turbojet) powered both the A-4 Skyhawk and the A-6 Intruder.

As we both know, the US backed away from selling China a modern turbofan engine - and essentially barred the UK from doing the same. My suspicion would be that the PW1212 and PW1216 were proposed as alternatives, after a more modern turbofan engine was ruled out. Neither of these alternatives, however, would have meaningfully altered China's access to modern engine technologies.

This post has already run a little long. I'll add some specifications in a follow-on email, in case you couldn't find them elsewhere.

Sample Engine Stats

I had to draw on a number of sources, to find reliable information for each of the engines.

The following are the basic statistics for the three turbofan engines. All specifications are quoted at Sea Level Static (SLS) conditions.

Fan / Compressor Stages:
PW1120 ------------------------------ 3 / 10
F404-GE-400 ------------------------- 3 / 7
RB199-34R Mk104 --------------------- 3 / 3 / 6

High / Low Pressure Turbine Stages:
PW1120 ------------------------------ 2 / 1
F404-GE-400 ------------------------- 1 / 1
RB199-34R Mk104 --------------------- 1 / 1 / 2

Bypass Ratio (BPR) at SLS Conditions:
PW1120 ------------------------------ 0.33 *
F404-GE-400 ------------------------- 0.34
RB199-34R Mk104 --------------------- 1.10

Overall Pressure Ratio (OPR):
PW1120 ------------------------------ 26.8
F404-GE-400 ------------------------- 24.0
RB199-34R Mk104 --------------------- 23.5

Length:
PW1120 ------------------------------ 4110 mm (161.8 in)
F404-GE-400 ------------------------- 4034 mm (158.8 in)
RB199-34R Mk104 --------------------- 3607 mm (142.0 in)

Max Overall Diameter:
PW1120 ------------------------------ 1021 mm (40.2 in)
F404-GE-400 ------------------------- 709 mm (27.9 in)
RB199-34R Mk104 --------------------- 870 mm (34.3 in)

Dry Weight:
PW1120 ------------------------------ 1290 kg (2850 lb)
F404-GE-400 ------------------------- 990 kg (2180 lb)
RB199-34R Mk104 --------------------- 976 kg (2151 lb)

Maximum Thrust, SLS:
PW1120 ------------------------------ 91.7 kN (20620 lb)
F404-GE-400 ------------------------- 71.2 kN (16010 lb)
RB199-34R Mk104 --------------------- 73.0 kN (16400 lb)

Intermediate (Dry) Thrust, SLS
PW1120 ------------------------------ 60.3 kN (13550 lb)
F404-GE-400 ------------------------- 47.2 kN (10610 lb)
RB199-34R Mk104 --------------------- 40.5 kN (9100 lb)

Thrust Specific Fuel Consumption (TSFC)
at Maximum Thrust, SLS:
PW1120 ------------------------------ 52.7 mg/Ns (1.860 lb/h/lb)
F404-GE-400 ------------------------- 52.4 mg/Ns (1.850 lb/h/lb)
RB199-34R Mk104 --------------------- N/A

Thrust Specific Fuel Consumption (TSFC)
at Intermediate Thrust, SLS:
PW1120 ------------------------------ 22.7 mg/Ns (0.800 lb/h/lb)
F404-GE-400 ------------------------- 23.0 mg/Ns (0.813 lb/h/lb)
RB199-34R Mk104 --------------------- 18.4 mg/Ns (0.649 lb/h/lb)

Air Flow at Maximum Thrust, SLS:
PW1120 ------------------------------ 80.7 kg/s (178 lb/s)
F404-GE-400 ------------------------- 64.2 kg/s (142 lb/s)
RB199-34R Mk104 --------------------- 70.0 kg/s (154 lb/s)

Maximum Burner Temperature:
PW1120 ------------------------------ 1407 C (2565 F) **
F404-GE-400 ------------------------- N/A
RB199-34R Mk104 --------------------- 1317 C (2400 F)

* Estimated, assuming that the core air flow is equivalent to the F100-220
** Assumes that the max burner temperature is consistent with the F100-220


The F404-GE-400 was the engine version approved for US Navy operation during the early 1980s. A higher thrust version, the RM12 was later developed for Sweden's Gripen fighter - rated at 80.0 kN (18100 lb).

The RB199-34R Mk104 was the version used in the Tornado Air Defence Variant.

This data was compiled from the following sources:


Jane's Aero Engines, 11th Edition, ed. by Bill Gunston (Surrey, England, Jane's Information Group, 2001).

James St. Peter, The History of Aircraft Gas Turbine Engine Development in the United States (Atlanta, Georgia, American Society of Mechanical Engineers, 1999).

Jane's All the World's Aircraft 1988-89, ed. by John WR Taylor (Surrey, England, Jane's Information Group, 1988).


Another way to interpret the data would be to compare the engines on the basis of either thrust-to-weight ratio. I have added data for the WP-13A II (which powers the J-8 II interceptor), as a point of comparison:

Thrust-to-Weight Ratio, Maximum Power, SLS:
WP-13A II ---------------------------- 5.59
PW1120 ------------------------------ 7.24
F404-GE-400 ------------------------- 7.34
RB199-34R Mk104 --------------------- 7.62

Thrust-to-Weight Ratio, Intermediate Power, SLS:
WP-13A II ---------------------------- 3.62
PW1120 ------------------------------ 4.75
F404-GE-400 ------------------------- 4.87
RB199-34R Mk104 --------------------- 4.23

In essence, you should gather the following from all of this,
Technologically speaking, all three Western turbofans were essentially equivalent.

Compared to the most advanced, Chinese-developed turbofan available at the time, all three of the Western candidate engines was clearly a generation ahead. Thrust-to-weight ratios were significantly greater, and fuel consumption was also lower.

The RB199 was the only three-spool engine in the mix. Its higher bypass ratio did translate into markedly better fuel consumption at dry (non-afterburning), subsonic conditions. However, it also hurt fuel consumption in an afterburning mode.

The relatively high parts count, and three spool arrangement contributed to the somewhat spotty maintenance record for this engine. Its successor, the Eurojet EJ200, would adopt a more conventional two-spool arrangement, and corrected many of the maintenance problems that had plagued its predecessor.

Hope this helps.

Deino ;D
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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He's wrong though. The PW1216 comes from the earliest iteration of the Saber II project, not after the advanced engines were barred.
 

Deino

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overscan said:
"delta-winged fighter designated the F-10, and the subsequent development of the more advanced F-12".

It suggests that the F-12 might use technology from the 1976 transfer of one or more MiG-23s from Egypt, but it might be an original design, and be powered by two Spey turbofans.

Air International January 1978


Hmmm ... I just thought a second time over this "strange" J-12 as I noticed it twice this week. The second mentioning - sorry, can't find the source currently - says there was not only the "Sabre II" or later "SUper-7" but also a completly new design with US assistance under consideration !

Does anyone have some more information regarding this "new" type ??

Cheers, Deino ???
 

Deino

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Hehe ... here it is ...

fltgshdw said:
These three were often mentioned as contendors, I might add, for a variety of lightweight fighter competitions at the time, including the Gripen, the Lavi, India's LCA, and Yugoslavia's Novi Avion. At one point, China was reportedly contemplating a new "clean sheet" design, based around one of these three engines, sometimes referred to as the "F-12" in the Western press.

Source: http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1013662#post1013662


Is this "J-12" only another thing of misunderstanding / mistranslation like the often refered delta- and VG-designs based on the MiG-23 which finally came out as the J-9 and Q-6, or were there actual some considerations for a "clean sheet" with developed with US assistance ??

I repeat that question as it's the second time this week this "clean sheet"-design is mentioned as a J-12 !

Thanks in advance, Deino ???
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Pratt & Whitney's PW1216 turbojet, a candidate to power Grumman's proposed Sabre II derivative of China's F-7 fighter, is a reheated version of the PW1212, itself an update of P&W's long-established J52 engine. The 12,000lb-thrust PW1212 is being developed to power US Navy EA-6B Prowlers. The 16,000lb-thrust PW1216 incorporates an afterburner designed and built in China.

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1987/1987%20-%201876.html
 

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