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Early Mitsubishi types (MB, MF, MR, MRT, MS, MT series)

theponja

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blackkite

Thank you very much for the information and the all that great links. I'm a fan of early japanese aircraft and it's very difficult to find information ( more if you live in South America ) .

Do you know if is available more information about Mitsubishi 1MF2 ?

Thanks again
Alcides
 

blackkite

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Oh South America!! It takes almost 24 hours from Japan to South America by Jet Airliner.
According to my bible,
Mitsubishi completed 1MF2 fighter first prototype in May 1928(昭和3) under German professor's instruction.
Chief designer was Nobushiro Nakata, assistant designer was Jiro Horikoshi and Jiro Tanaka.
At the beginning, this fighter was planned to have forward swept under fuselage wing mono plane, but IJA requested Mitsubishi change to shoulder mounted wing mono plane. This plane had drop tank, not wire supported wing, good maintenability and excellent shape compared with other competitors. This fighter marked 270km/h(3,000m) in IJA's examination, faster than other competitors.
But in 400km/h dive test, 1MF2 suffered midair disintegration and pilot escaped by parachute. This is the first time in Japan recovered from accident by parachute. Then IJA's examination for these competitors temporally stopped and static strength test were conducted and all competitors failed. But Nakajima continued to develop NC and finally selected as Army Type 91 Fighter.
1MF2 Specification;
Engine Power: 450HP(liquid cooled v type 12 cylinders)
Wing span:12.62m, overall length:8.2m, Wing area:23m2, Max speed:270km/h, MTOW:1,800kg, Service ceiling:8,500m; Armament:7.7mm gun(2)
 

theponja

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Thanks!!! Very interesting.

Do you know if this 3d view is accurate? I thinking to model this one.

 

Boogey

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blackkite said:
... Mitsubishi completed 1MF2 fighter first prototype in May 1928(昭和3) under German professor's instruction ...

Engine Power: 450HP(liquid cooled v type 12 cylinders)
Wing span:12.62m, overall length:8.2m, Wing area:23m2, Max speed:270km/h, MTOW:1,800kg, Service ceiling:8,500m; Armament:7.7mm gun(2)
Dear gentlemen, there's something wrong with our perception of the Mitsubishi 1MF fighter !!!
First of all the aircraft was a BIPLANE, designed by Herbert Smith from the Sopwith Aircraft Co.
in November 1921 ( prototype 1MF1, carrier fighter Type 10 ) and had to be a classical carrier plane
engined by licenced 300 HP Hispano - Suiza built by Mitsubishi.
Here You have the versions of the plane : 1MF1, 1MF1 A, 1MF2, 1MF3, 1MF3 B, 1MF4, 1MF5 and 1MF5 A.
The dimensions of all the Mitsubishi 1MF versions were similar, but smaller than those given by blackkite.
 

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blackkite

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Thanks Boogey! You know Japanese aircraft very well.
 

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It's not me, it's a marvellous two - volumed publication in my possession for a long time
" Japońskie Samoloty Marynarki 1912 - 1945 " * by Tadeusz Januszewski & Krzysztof Zalewski ;D
The story of the Mitsubishi 1MF hasn't finished with the 1MF5 version ...
There were also two carrier fighter prototypes built by Mitsubishi :
- 1MF9 Taka ( biplane, 2 built ) ;
- 1MF10 ( monoplane, 2 built ).

* Japanese Navy Aircraft.
 

blackkite

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Hi! You have Very good books.
My second Bible(ENCYCLOPEDIA OF JAPANESE AIRCRAFT 1900-1945,total 10 volumes,I got recently) has same information as yours.
Please enjoy the drawings of 1MF2,4,5A,9.

In 1925,IJN ordered to Mitsubishi,Nakajima,Aichi to design new fighter. Mitsubishi's candidate was 1MF9, the Taka-type Experimental Carrier Fighter. It was the first fighter designed by Japanese designer(chief:Jojiro Hattori,服部譲次郎). This fighter had water tight fuselage,water sliding bottom panel, water tight under wing leading edge and drop undercarriage for emergency water landing according to IJN's order, and became heavy weight. Finally IJN selected Nakajima's A1N1(Gloster design) which ignored water sliding bottom panel requirement from IJN ;D and had simplified water tight bulkhead. 150 A1N1s are manufactured as 3-shiki No1 Carrier Fighter.
Aichi's candidate was Heinkel HD-23.

1MF9 Overall Length:8.443m, Wing spa:10.8m, Height:3.403m, Wing area:41.5m2, Empty weight:1,200kg, MTOW:1,855kg, Max speed:132kt(244.5km/h), Service ceiling:7,000m, Engine:Mitsubishi Hi-shiki liguid cooling v12 600HP(take off).
 

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blackkite

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In April of 1932, IJN ordered to Mitsubishi and Nakajima to manufacture experimental fighter which was a successor of 90-shiki Carrier Fighter.
Mitsubishi's proposal was 1MF10, Nakajima's proposal was the experimental 7-shi Carrier Fighter.
1MF10 was designed by Jiro Horikishi(chief),Tomio Kubo,etc, completed in February of 1933.
In vertical dive test by No1 plane, vertical tail stabilizer was destroyed, piloy recovered by parachute.
Also No2 plane was destroyed by flat spin, pilot recovered by parachute,too.
This fighter's controlability was poor, difficult to see forward direction for Carrier Fighter.And cancelled by INJ same as Nakajima's proposal because of low performance compared with IJN's specification.

1MF10 Wing span:10m, Overall length:6.925m, Height:3.31m, Wing area:17.7m2, Empty:1225kg, MTOW:1578kg, Max speed:173kt, Endurance:3hr, Engine:Mitsubishi A-4 air cooling double radial 14 cylinders 780HP(take off).

The experimental 7-shi Carrier Fighter(Nakajima)
Wing span:11m, Overall length:7.2m, Height:3.2m, Wing area:20m2, Empty:1100kg, MTOW:1600kg, Max speed:160kt, Engine:Nakajima Kotobuki 5 air cooling radial 9 cylinders 560HP(take off).
 

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Boogey

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Taka means Falcon in Japanese ...
Thanks for the 1MF2, 1MF4 and 1MF5 drafts ; I don't have these ones in my book.
I guess there aren't any informations of the 1MF6, 1MF7 and 1MF8 in Your publication, are they ?
 

blackkite

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Boogey said:
Taka means Falcon in Japanese ...
Thanks for the 1MF2, 1MF4 and 1MF5 drafts ; I don't have these ones in my book.
I guess there aren't any informations of the 1MF6, 1MF7 and 1MF8 in Your publication, are they ?
You are right. Taka(鷹)is Falcon.
Yes my book has no information of the 1MF6, 1MF7 and 1MF8.
Indeed it's strange.
 
T

tecnam

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Here are some additional images and drawings of three related Mitsubishi aircraft, all conceived around 1925 by the same designer, Alexander Baumann, whom I believe was from Germany...
1 MF 2

2 MB2


2 MR 1 "Tobi"






Sorry for the links, but for some reason, I am not able to upload images directly to this forum.
 

blackkite

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Oh Tobi(鳶)is a blackkite!
Yes according to my No2 bible, Tobi was designed under the leadership of professor Alexander Bauman from Stuttgart University Germany.
In 1926, IJA ordered Nakajima, Kawasaki, Ishikawajima and Mitsubishi to develop new reconnaissance aircraft.
Tobi No1 was completed in 1927. In IJA's test, Tobi was crushed by undercarrige trouble.
This competition's winner was Kawasaki's one and became 88-shiki reconnaissance aircraft.
 
T

tecnam

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Can anyone explain the advantage of the unusually high upper wing on the "Tobi"? And would this classified as a sesquiplane?
 

blackkite

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tecnam said:
Can anyone explain the advantage of the unusually high upper wing on the "Tobi"? And would this classified as a sesquiplane?
I think the purpose of the unusually high upper wing was the realization of effective small wing for higher speed to avoid influence of fuselage and lower wing. The unusually high upper wing also gave good upper view for enemy fighter detection.
Tobi marked 227km/h while IJA's request for top speed was 200km/h.
 

Boogey

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Hmm, so we have the Mitsubishi 1MF2 in parasol monoplane configuration again ...
Where is the truth ?
 

theponja

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Boogey said:
Hmm, so we have the Mitsubishi 1MF2 in parasol monoplane configuration again ...
Where is the truth ?
I think the parasol is the correct one. If you see the data in image from the blackkite post ( in the
1mf2,4,5a.jpg ) references to the 1MF1 not the 1MF2 and the drawing labeled
as "1MF2" looks like the one in your picture: mitsubishi 1mf1 (rys.).jpg

All the other references and pictures shows the 1mf2 as a parasol monoplane.
 

Boogey

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Problem is that according to the informations from my book " Japońskie Samoloty Marynarki "
all the versions of the 1MF * were BIPLANES differing only with construction details from each others,
for example the 1MF2 was a second basic version differed from the 1MF1
with the Lamblin type radiator and increased tail surface.
Now, I have the short information, that three of the Herbert Smith's design first four prototypes :
2MR1, 2MR2, 2MR3 and 2MR4 had factory given names Washi, Tobi and Hayabusa.
I believe the 2MR2 was Tobi, so I guess the 2MR1 might have been named Washi.
If so, does anybody know which one was Hayabusa ?
There were also two prototypes of the Mitsubishi 2MR5 built.

* We talk about the first five basic versions : 1MF1, 1MF2, 1MF3, 1MF4 and 1MF5 ;
the 1MF9 Taka was also a biplane and the 1MF10 a monoplane.
 

blackkite

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theponja said:
Boogey said:
Hmm, so we have the Mitsubishi 1MF2 in parasol monoplane configuration again ...
Where is the truth ?
I think the parasol is the correct one. If you see the data in image from the blackkite post ( in the
1mf2,4,5a.jpg ) references to the 1MF1 not the 1MF2 and the drawing labeled
as "1MF2" looks like the one in your picture: mitsubishi 1mf1 (rys.).jpg

All the other references and pictures shows the 1mf2 as a parasol monoplane.
My No2 Bible has two 1MF2. One is 1MF2 the Hayabusa type Experimental Fighter for IJA(mono plane). Another one is the Navy Type 10 shi Carrier Fighter for IJN(1MF1 modification type,biplane). It's Mitsubishi's double booking or my No2 Bible's mistake. I vote for Mitsubishi's double booking.
 

blackkite

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Accoring to my No2 Bible, Washi(鷲,an eagle) was 2MB2(The Washi-type Experimental Light Bomber for IJA,ordered in 1924.)
Tobi (鳶,a blackkite)was 2MR1 (The Tobi-type Experimental Reconnaissance plane. for IJA,ordered in 1925.)
Hayabusa (隼,a peregrine falcon)was 1MF2(The Hayabusa-type Experimental Fighter for IJA,ordered in 1927.)
Taka(鷹,a hawk) was 1MF9(The Taka-type Experimental Carrier Fighter, biplane,ordered in 1925.)
 

Boogey

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@ Bailey It helped ;D
I have an inkling of the early designations type 1MF, 2MR, 2MR and so on were typical
only in the Japanese Naval Aviation, changed later for the A, B, C, D ... categories.
The Mitsubishi 2MB2 was almost the same aircraft as the 2MR2 only adapted to bomb missions.
 

blackkite

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Very confusing! Following two planes were called as 2MR1. :eek: ???
One was the Tobi-type Experimental Reconnaissance plane for IJA ordered in 1925.
Another one was the navy type 10 Carrier Reconnaissance plane for IJN completed in 1921.
The final experimental type of 10 Carrier Reconnaissance plane was called Kari(雁,a wild goose)type.
(Source:My No2 Bible, We hope it's English version.)
 

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gerhard

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Hi Guys

I do not see a difference between the 2MR and 2MRT models. Were they the same airframes used for different duties?

Cheers
Gerhard
 

Stargazer2006

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gerhard said:
I do not see a difference between the 2MR and 2MRT models. Were they the same airframes used for different duties?
This should help you some.
 

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gerhard

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Hi Stargazer
Thank you for the info. If you compare for instance the airframe of the 2MRT3 and compare it to that of the 2MR2, the differences are minimal. Hence my original question.
Also it appears that there are two designs under the designation, 2MR2.

Any thoughts?
Cheers
 

blackkite

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gerhard said:
Hi Stargazer
Thank you for the info. If you compare for instance the airframe of the 2MRT3 and compare it to that of the 2MR2, the differences are minimal. Hence my original question.
Also it appears that there are two designs under the designation, 2MR2.

Any thoughts?
Cheers
Hi! I will try to answer your question, too. please give me some time. :)
 

blackkite

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gerhard said:
Hi Guys

I do not see a difference between the 2MR and 2MRT models. Were they the same airframes used for different duties?

Cheers
Gerhard
Hi!
T means trainer version which had double control rods.
Please compare the side view of 2MR2 and 2MRT2.
2MR2 had a Lamblin radiator while 2MR1 had a front end bee hive shape radiator.
Source : ENCYCLOPEDIA OF JAPANESE AIRCRAFT VOL.1 MITSUBISHI'S AIRCRAFT, SHUPPAN-KYODO PUBLISHERS TOKYO,JAPAN

http://books.google.ca/books?id=JDg0qXuODnkC&pg=PA144&lpg=PA144&dq=Lamblin+radiators&source=bl&ots=derONHWO7Q&sig=95YRwi-_itoCHffo_rUOSBVABds&hl=en&ei=HaFyTab5Jo_2swOuj7S6Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Lamblin%20radiators&f=true
 

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hesham

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Hi,

does anyone hear about Sasebo Naval Air Arsenal ?,I know it built Mitsubishi F1M2
during WWII,but no evidence for create its own design ?.
 

blackkite

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Hi!
2MR5.

The prototype special-purpose carrier reconnaissance aircraft was developed by Mitsubishi Aircraft for the Imperial Navy of Japan. Mitsubishi's internal name is 2MR5.
In 1927 (Showa 2), Mitsubishi completed two 2MR5 for the study of slotted flaps and for the study to grant buoyancy to untimely landing .
Under the guidance of Alexander Baumann, the company voluntarily produced two aircraft. The aircraft was a double-seat biplane of the fabric covering to the wood-metal mixed skeleton wing structure as a lightweight aircraft.The lower wing was what is called "Oval Röre wing" equipped with a slotted flap/aileron, all metal watertight structure to have buoyancy had been adopted. The pilot's evaluation was poor because of the heavy steering and poor maneuverability. It had not been formally adopted by the Navy.
Source ; Japanese site.
 

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blackkite

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The aircraft was equipped with an Mitsubishi "Hi" 8-cylinder water-cooled engine √ licensed Hispano Suiza-8 √ 300 hp. The design was mixed. The lower wing was all-metal with duralumin lining and had an original tubular power set, the profile of which was named after the German developer "Oval Röre".The lower wing was airtight and played the role of a float for emergency landing on water. Slit flaps, which also worked as ailerons, were also of interest. The fuselage had plywood sheathing, and the upper wing and control surfaces were sheathed with canvas. Screw wooden two-blade fixed pitch. Nothing is known about the planned weapons. It was not installed on two prototypes built. Probably, if the project was successful, a standard ring turret with a 7.7-mm machine gun should have been placed in the rear cockpit.
During the tests, the aircraft showed poor controllability and did not interest the military.
 

blackkite

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In 1929, Mitsubishi began to develop a light close scout in the hope of interest in the army command. In parallel, two projects were launched: the classic 2MR7 biplane and the 2MR8 monoplane parasol. The projects were led by two different design teams. Work on the 2MR7 biplane was led by Joji Hattori.

Structurally, the Hattori project was a deep processing of the carrier torpedo bomber V1M (Type 13), from which the wing was borrowed. At the same time, the dimensions of the 2MR7 were extremely compressed. The wings of the biplane box were redesigned. The design of the power set was a scaled-down copy of the carrier torpedo bomber B2M (Type 89) design of the British company Blackburn. The aircraft was equipped with 8-cylinder Mitsubishi “Hi” liquid-cooled engine licensed Hispano Suiza-8 300 hp. The armament consisted of two 7.7 mm machine guns - one synchronous and one on the ring turret in the rear cockpit.

The 2MR7 scout was tested at the end of 1929. Test results are unknown. The army authorities gave preference to the 2MR8, which was developed in parallel with the scout, which was adopted under the designation Type 92, and 2MR7 remained in a single copy. Its flight data were not preserved

 

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