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DCN-PA-2 and DCNS Carrier Designs

Triton

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Can a moderate please merge this topic with the following topic:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3974.msg31158.html#msg31158

Thank you for your time and assistance.
 

nova10

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DCNS are currently designing a next-generation aircraft carrier it calls the PA DSX to supplement the Charles de Gaulle CVN. It is unknown if this is a rehash of its previous designs or an entirely new "blank page" design. The information on the DCNS website is slight to say the least. Of interest is the low projected speed of 18-22 knots which is even slower than the CVF. Perhaps this is due to a change in powerplant from nuclear to gas turbine. Does anyone have any further information or a picture of this aircraft carrier?
 

Thorvic

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Its probably a refined version of the of the DCNS design show in the last year in this thread where they basically reworked their older Julliet design in place of the previously selected Thales CVF-PA2 design. With the PA2 not being included for procurement during the Sarkozy period i suspect DCNS ar revising the design to fit in with the next procurement window and using the design process to sell the concept to the likes of Brazil who are looking for an affordable non-nuclear Carrier design to eventually replace San Paulo
 

Grey Havoc

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nova10 said:
Of interest is the low projected speed of 18-22 knots which is even slower than the CVF. Perhaps this is due to a change in powerplant from nuclear to gas turbine.
Sounds more like a biodiesel based diesel-electric machinery set-up to me. Something of a cynical design choice if my guess is correct.
 

Pepe Rezende

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With a so low speed it has no chance to substitute Sao Paulo. The Brazilian Navy established a 26 knots for LPHs.


Cheers


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Grey Havoc

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So basically what we have is a porteur supplémentaire, intended for training and defensive operations relatively close to France. In other words a 'Bay of Biscay' carrier. DCNS is aiming this square at the incoming new French Government as an 'environmentaly friendly' jobs program, IMHO.
 

Pepe Rezende

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Or as an affordable carrier for lesser ambitious countries.


Cheers


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royabulgaf

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Or as an affordable carrier for lesser ambitious countries.

I dunno. You have to be really ambitious to have a real aircraft carrier. Look at Britain's carrier problems. Check out Brazil, no third world basket case any more. They have a couple squadrons of third hand Skyhawks in hangars that could hold the Hindenburg. Thailand can't even afford to run aircraft on their carrier.
 

H_K

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The quality of this forum must be going downhill... so much conjecture and jumping to conclusions without any effort to do a quick Google search or read earlier posts in this thread. :eek:


The PADSX design has been discussed at length, both here and on the DCNS website: it's a 59,000t evolution of the Romeo/Juliette design, with integrated electric propulsion. Three diesels and a gas turbine (64 MW) driving 3 shafts. Max speed 26kts, and 20+ knots on 2 shafts.

Plenty of pics of the model at the last Euronaval can be found.


(Click thumbnail for full size)
 

Triton

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Via Google Translate:

DCNS and STX France offers a new design of aircraft carrier

It was one of the stars - discrete - the Euronaval. Result of the work led by DCNS and STX France since the abandonment of the Franco-British aircraft carrier in June 2008, the new "PA2" was unveiled last week on the stand of DCNS. The overall design of the building is reminiscent of the project "Juliette", initiated by DCNS before a cooperation agreement is signed by London and Paris in March 2006. The new PA2 (aircraft carrier number 2) adopts a single island, which is preferred configuration of the Navy from the design to two islands of Carrier Vessel Future (CVF) of the Royal Navy. This unique structure, its architecture, optimizes aerology when a plane arrives at the landing. The building studied by DCNS and STX France has a lift-off point of 272 meters long and 70 meters wide. As the Charles de Gaulle, the track has three strands oblique stop and a barricade system for the retrieval of a downed aircraft. The hull is characterized by an elongated bulb and, on the back, adding a skirt. This structure avoids the trim by the stern and easy maneuvering of aircraft in landing. The tip of the bulb in the far back, the total length is 285 meters.

Moving the PA2 is, meanwhile, of 59,000 tons at full load (at Newbuilding). This building is lighter than the French version of CVF previously studied (65,000 tons). However, the carrying capacity of aircraft are identical, with infrastructure sized to 32 Rafale, Hawkeye 3 and 5 helicopters. "We did lose weight. This design has the previous form of an improved hull. Generally, the boat has been optimized to best meet the needs of the Navy, but in a very strong prospect of reducing costs, "said one engineer. Officially, no figures were given but, in corridors, it evokes a bill reduced by about 20%. The focus is on the budget necessary for the implementation phase, but also operations, with less maintenance and fewer crews through automation. Thus, the crew of PA2 is given to 1690 persons, of which only 900 for the conduct of the building. This is down significantly compared to Charles de Gaulle. Although smaller (261 meters, 42,000 tons) and shipping fewer devices, the current French aircraft carrier is armed with just under 2000 people (including carrier air group).

Three rows of trees and a conventionally powered

AP2 has two boilers to supply two steam catapults 90 meters long. Not yet mature and probably more costly, the concept of electromagnetic catapults, intended to equip the new U.S. aircraft carriers, was not retained. The model presented by DCNS and STX adopts an all-electric propulsion, with three diesel generators, gas turbine and three electric propulsion motors. The whole develops 85MW, 64 MW for propulsion only, which should allow the carrier to spin at 26 knots. The concept of the three rows of trees can, in case of damage to one of these lines, maintain a speed of 20 knots, sufficient to receive a large aircraft like Hawkeye despite strong constraints (no wind flaps the failed unit). For French manufacturers, the new design PA2 is the best compromise can be reached between the French industrial capacities, the cost constraints of the Department of Defense and the Navy's operational requirements. Simple and robust, using, where possible civilian technologies (equipment "COTS" shelf), PA2 revisited this makes maximum use of materials made reliable. This is particularly the case for speed cameras, with the use of Herakles, already selected for the 11 future multi-mission frigates (FREMM) of the Navy. There are also above the bridge of a surveillance radar SMART-S, sold by Thales in many navies. The defense system is also limited to two quad launchers for Aster 15 and artillery remote operated small arms.

Too expensive and the nuclear binding

Unlike the Charles de Gaulle, the design put forward by industry thus offers a conventional propulsion. The advantages of nuclear power are not challenged. This mode of propulsion offers undeniable operational advantages, limiting the need for storing ship aviation fuel, ammunition and food. It also avoids exhaust fumes could disturb the landing maneuvers. But as the experience of the current French aircraft carrier (commissioned in 2001) makes clear, the nuclear also imposes important constraints. The first is due to constraints related to nuclear safety. In peacetime, the building meets the same standards as a central EDF, except that it also serves as a floating airfield hosting bunkers and ammunition on which maneuvering aircraft carrying fuel, bombs, shells and other missiles. This concentration of risk in a small space creates a real headache for safety. Furthermore, current legislation, particularly strict, requires that any problems found to be resolved, even if the malfunction only affects one of many security systems operating in redundancy. This is what happened in mid-October with a safety valve, which required a standard exchange and, therefore, return to Toulon from Charles de Gaulle, who had sailed the previous day to its deployment in ocean India.

At the same time, nuclear propulsion is "budget-". Several comparative studies have already been mentioned about the cost of 30 or 40 years between the conventionally powered and nuclear propulsion. The second allows, of course, to overcome the cost of bunkers, that is to say hundreds of thousands of tonnes of fuel consumed by the machines during the lifetime of the building. But rarely is assessed, or poorly, the additional cost to the atom, which requires safety measures and maintenance much heavier, not counting reloads of hearts (every 7-8 years) and the invoice related to the removal facilities once the building disarmed. Moreover, if France were to opt for a second aircraft carrier with nuclear propulsion, it would probably develop new boiler, which would take time and would increase the final bill. Therefore, even if manufacturers have been working on a nuclear option and the decision remains with the head of state, it is clear that conventional propulsion seems, today, most within reach of France . "It is not for me to guide a choice between nuclear or conventional. Everyone knows the benefits of a solution and the other, including the autonomy provided by nuclear. But it is clear that if we try to have an aircraft carrier quickly and cheaply, this is not the solution that brings the nuclear response, "said Patrick Boissier, DCNS Chairman.
Finally, although this is not the main handicap, it should be noted that a nuclear-powered vessel does not enter any port. Many countries refuse indeed to welcome this type of boat, which limits the possibilities of stopovers and thus the support points and support. The sailors, who go for long missions, have also suffered from this situation, which can affect morale.

The decision referred to the next term?

In 2008, Nicolas Sarkozy said he had deferred to 2011 or 2012 the decision to build, or not, a second aircraft carrier to the Navy. The goal is always to have a second platform able to accommodate the carrier air group of Charles de Gaulle when he is off technique. This is the principle of permanence to the sea, allowing France to have any time on this tool and diplomatic force projection only. This summer, while traveling to sites STX France in Saint-Nazaire, which would be built this building, the President said that this choice would depend on the economic context and made it clear that if the timing was not more favorable, the answer would probably be negative. As we have mentioned several times, the economic argument is primarily a pretext. For an aircraft carrier, it is about "only" 2.5 billion euros of investment over 7 years, compared to 15 to 17 billion euros that the Department of Defense spends annually in credits equipment. The main problem of the aircraft carrier, is its size and especially the political symbol it represents. A program of armor, fighters or even frigates will tend to go unnoticed, even if the cost is much higher. The carrier, however, requires real political commitment, this type of command that is inevitably subject to criticism (in the spirit, "an aircraft carrier that is as high schools or hospitals that are could build ") it would be very surprising that the Elysee, the approach of the presidential election of 2012, engages in such a way. That may be why Herve Morin, the Defence Minister, has pévoqué, last week, a decision late 2012 or early 2013, that is to say to the next legislature.

Perhaps the prospects for export

If only a Franco-French, the project probably little chance of success. International arrangements can, however, give him more credit. In terms of exports, although the market for this type of building is extremely limited, markets are, why not, possible. If cooperation with Great Britain lived, some now believe a rapprochement with Brazil, which has the firm intention to establish two carrier battle groups to defend its maritime interests. For this, the Brazilian Navy, which currently only has the old Sao Paulo (former Foch French commissioned in 1963), will need in the coming years, to build two new aircraft carriers. After the historic cooperation agreement signed in 2009 between Paris and Brasilia on submarines, there may be, from this point of view, a new card to play. Outside of Brazil, two countries want to develop their carrier battle tool. First India, with which France good relations (submarines have been sold including technology transfer). New Delhi has so far done the double challenge of replacing its aging aircraft carrier by a modernization of the former Russian Admiral Gorshkov (renamed Vikramaditya) and a building constructed locally (on Vikrant). However, both projects face difficulties and fall behind.
Another track, maybe more interesting, but politically very complex international, leads in Russia. Moscow has indeed announced its intention to bring up to five carrier battle groups by 2050. However, the country no longer has the technical capacity to make such buildings, much less know-how to implement them. Except surprise, France will soon sell projection and Command (BPC) to the Russian Navy. This contract will include a significant transfer of technology, aiming to put right, with methods and preceded Western, Russian shipyards that have not been able to modernize after the collapse of the USSR. After having provided assistance to Russia for the construction of large-gate attack helicopters, France (only with the United States to control the tool carrier) would be well positioned to support the industrial and marine Russia to build and operate new aircraft carriers. Obviously, such agreements, if they became a reality one day, would only result after long periods of negotiations, not only between the two countries, but also with other allies of France, as the United States, which would probably take a very dim lights a boost up in the long run, allow Moscow to counterbalance, even if only partially, of any American power on the seas. Some will find that a Franco-Russian cooperation on aircraft carriers is an unrealistic idea. But the wheel turns and the evolving geostrategic environment. For proof, Paris and London now to reflect on nuclear cooperation, reconciliation perfectly unthinkable a few short years.

Source:
http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=114409
 

Triton

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From the DCNS Group web site:

Carrier group centrepiece

As the centrepiece of a powerful naval aviation force, an aircraft carrier offers a strategic advantage thanks to its air/sea dominance and power projection and deep strike capabilities.

After developing and building CVN Charles de Gaulle (1987-1996) DCNS is now designing a next-generation aircraft carrier offering increased power projection capabilities, optimised maintainability and improved at-sea availability. The interval between refits will be extended and their duration reduced. All systems will be more accessible and equipment handling greatly improved.

Longer intervals between shorter refits. The PA DSX will offer improved maintainability and at-sea availability thanks to lessons learned through fleet-wide through-life support. Special attention will be paid to living conditions for the reduced crew of 900. The ship will accommodate an air wing, a command team and other passengers.

The PA DSX design’s capabilities include air/sea control over a wide area, strike attacks against land and maritime targets along with missions as part of a carrier group or in cooperation with allied forces. On operational deployments with an air wing of 40 aircraft, the PA DSX will be able to carry out up to 75 air missions per day for extended periods.

Key points
  • All-electric ship with a powerful propulsion system
  • Improved naval aviation capabilities
  • Reduced crewing (complement of 900)
  • Improved living conditions
  • Improved access to all major systems
  • Speed: 18 to 22 knots

Technical data

Conventional propulsion version

Length overall (flight deck): 285 m
Beam overall (flight deck): 69 m
Displacement (start of life): 59,000 tonnes
Displacement (end of life): 62,000 tonnes
Draught (end of life): 10 m
Speed: 26 knots / > 20 knots on (n-1) shafts
Propulsion: electric
Endurance (with 30% reserve): 8,000 nm at 15 knots / 5,000 nm at 22 knots
Fuel oil capacity: 3,800 tonnes
Jet fuel capacity: 3,400 tonnes
Magazine (munitions): 800 tonnes
Hangar area: 4,800 sq m
Accommodation: 1,690
Flight deck, area: 13,400 sq m

Source:
http://en.dcnsgroup.com/naval/products/aircraft-carriers-family/
 

Grey Havoc

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Some major contradictions there. I'm left wondering if someone in the PR department at DCNS reused old material in a bid to fill copy in a hurry.

On another note, this might have a bearing on whether the design actually gets anywhere: Le Drian Tapped as New French Defense Minister (DefenseNews)
 

Pepe Rezende

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royabulgaf said:
Or as an affordable carrier for lesser ambitious countries.

I dunno. You have to be really ambitious to have a real aircraft carrier. Look at Britain's carrier problems. Check out Brazil, no third world basket case any more. They have a couple squadrons of third hand Skyhawks in hangars that could hold the Hindenburg. Thailand can't even afford to run aircraft on their carrier.

The Skyhawks don't operate from Santa Cruz, where is the Graf Zeppelin hangar (it was not build for Hindenburg), they are in Sao Pedro da Aldeia. They, also, are not third hand planes. In fact, they were used only by Kuwait and are the last build by Mc Donnell-Douglas. Now, they are in modernization process at Embraer, receiving a new radar, new avionics and a new EW suite. They will be able to use anti-ship and BVR air-to-air missiles.


Brazilian Navy choose the Skyhawk as a cheap way to get some experience in combat jets operations. Until very recently, operating fixed wings aircrafts was Brazilian Air Force monopoly. The idea, for the future, is use F-X2 bid winner at both services. The Navy intends to bought 48 planes equipping two 50,000 t aircraft carriers. The Brazilian Navy is also developing a new anti-ship missile for use in aircrafts, ships and submarines.


A good question: what is more reliable: DCNS page or Google?


You MUST see the Zeppelin hangar: http://goo.gl/ChNrG


Cheers


Pepe
 

Pepe Rezende

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In French, shafts are "arbres" (trees). Translating google translation to real English, the project has three shafts!


Pepe
 

Triton

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Model of DCNS PA2 on display at Euronaval 2012.

Source:
http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/home/naval-exhibitions-pictures/euronaval-2012.html?AG_MK=0&AG_form_paginInitPages_653=1&AG_form_albumInitFolders_653=west_europe/france/exhibition/euronaval_2012/pictures/Scale%20models&AG_form_scrollTop=966&AG_form_scrollLeft=0&AG_MK=0
 

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Grey Havoc

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GTX said:
Geoff_B said:
Pushing that its small and light enough to safely operate off San Paulo where as the other two contenders whilst having Naval variants are too big and heavy to operate off their current carrier and would need a new larger carrier to replace San Paulo.

Only trouble is SAAB should probably have done this in the 80/90's when developing the Gripen to have been able to offer a viable carrier option like the Russians did with the Mig-29K.

Getting a little further off topic (though in my defence Sea Gripen is mentioned within this ;) ), this is one of the reasons why DCNS is supposedly promoting its PA2 carrier design to Brazil, as a future replacement for the NAe Sao Paolo. If a long term, package deal were preferred then the Rafale (in both land and ship based flavours) would stand a good chance of coming out on top.
 

Triton

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I missed this news back in April:

"France’s PA2/CVF Carrier Project: Stalled in the Water"
Apr 29, 2013 12:02 UTC by Defense Industry Daily staff

Source:
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/france-steaming-ahead-on-pa2cvf-carrier-project-01621/

April 28/13: France exits. France’s 2013 Defense White Paper (Livre Blanc) formally ends France’s plans for a 2nd aircraft carrier. What it doesn’t do, is change France’s breadth of strategic commitments. If the design survives, it will be as an export that might even be built abroad.

Throughout most of the Cold War period, France maintained two aircraft carriers. That changed when the FNS Foch, the last Clemenceau Class carrier, was retired in November 2000 (it will now serve the Brazilian Navy as the Sao Paolo). As Strategis notes, France has lacked the capacity to ensure long-distance air coverage during the FNS Charles de Gaulle’s maintenance cycles or during other periods when the carrier is not available for active duty (approximately 35% of the time). In 2015, the ship will be taken out of service for an extensive maintenance overhaul. Despite a slippage in initial construction dates from 2005 to 2007-2008, the French still hope to take delivery by 2014 so the new ship can be operational by the time their sole operational aircraft carrier goes off line for repairs.

That was the original idea, anyway. Recent developments once again cast doubt on the PA2′s future. The time for a decision was postponed to 2011, but in 2013, DCNS is still waiting. In fact, their taking their case to the export market.

PA2: The Design & Acquisition Program

The PA2 project was entrusted to the “MOPA2″ (Maitrise d’Oeuvre Porte Avions No 2) consortium composed of DCN and Thales. The design was originally thought to be for a ship of about 58,000t, but detailed design work pushed it up into the 74,000t range, fully 72% larger than the FNS Charles de Gaulle, before dropping it back down near the original figure at around 62,000t. Unlike the problematic external link nuclear-powered de Gaulle, however, the PA2 as currently envisioned will be a conventionally-powered ship with an all-electric power system driven by Rolls Royce gas turbines.

The PA2 design phase was officially launched by French Minister for Defense Mme Michele Alliot-Marie on Jan 24/05. The studies undertaken since early 2005 have focused on the opportunities for cooperation between the French PA2 and the British CVF future carrier programs. These studies concluded that the basic 55,000-65,000t CVF design put together by the BAE-Thales Alliance team could meet the French Navy’s requirements with only limited tailoring. Unlike the 43,000t CVN Charles de Gaulle Class, therefore, the new PA2 carrier will feature conventional as opposed to nuclear engines.

The program faces obstacles in France, where a slow economy, aging population, and large array of public spending programs made funding somewhat uncertain beyond the May 2007 Presidential elections. Back at the Euronaval 2006 show, Aviation Week quoted Michele Alliot-Marie as reportedly saying that:

“[Her] ambition is to render this program as irreversible as possible.” She not only sees the project as vital to “ensure that our overseas deployment capacity remains permanent,” but also as a foundation for constructing “a consolidated European industry and a solid European defense.”

Suffice to say that 7 years and 4 defense ministers later, it didn’t work. As of 2013, France has been unable to find the budget to build PA2. The current government’s forthcoming 2013 White Paper is expected to deliver a firm verdict, but that same government is also putting brakes on the economy, amidst a general Euro-zone crisis that is far from over. Fiscal prospects going forward are exceedingly poor, which is why DCNS is beginning to look abroad. Brazil may become the PA2′s only lifeline.

PA2: The Design

If it’s ever built, the PA2 would operate about 32-40 aircraft of various types, including Rafale-M fighters, E-2C/D Hawkeye airborne early warning aircraft, and AS565 Panther or NH90 NFH naval helicopters. The PA2 went through several design iterations (q.v. Appendix A), but based on 2010 design figures and public material from DCNS, envisioned specifications include:

Length (flight deck): 285 m
Beam (flight deck) : 67.5 – 69 m (37.5 at waterline)
Displacement: 62,000t
Range: 5,000 – 8,000 nautical miles, depending on detail design decisions
Endurance: 5-week mission without replenishment at sea.
Speed: 26 knots
Crew: 1,550: 900 ship + 650 air wing
Passengers: 220
Powerplant: 3 diesel engines + 1 gas turbine (CODAG/ CODLAG)
Catapults: 2 steam, with associated powerplants
Other: SATRAP list compensation system

By comparison, the nuclear-powered FS Charles de Gaulle is 261 meters long and about 45,000t.

Defensively, a SETIS combat system will be paired with a Herakles radar, giving the boat commonality with France’s new Aquitaine Class FREMM frigates. Defensive systems will include 2 x 8-cell SYLVER vertical launch sets. MBDA/Eurosam Aster 15 PAAMS missiles are already integrated with Herakles and SETIS, but cheaper and shorter-range VL-MICA missiles could also be substituted. Close-in air defense would be provided by Mistral short-range missiles, probably using the same 6-missile, remotely-controlled Sadral launcher found on the Charles de Gaulle (which mounts 2). A last-ditch CIWS system like Thales’ 30mm Goalkeeper is also a possibility. ECM and decoy systems would provide last-ditch “soft-kill” capability.
 

Triton

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Also from April:

Source:
http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/dcns-unveils-brazilian-carrier-design.255248/

DCNS is offering an adapted version of its PA2 design for a future Brazilian aircraft carrier.

A model of a 60,000t displacement 285m-long PA2 carrier is being shown by the company at the LAAD exhibition in Rio de Janeiro.

Eric Perrot, DCNS surface ships project director, told Shephard that the Brazilian Navy had plans to acquire one or two new aircraft carriers to replace their existing carrier, NAe Sao Paulo, after 2025.

The Brazilian Navy released a request for proposals (RfP) in 2012 for specifications for aircraft carriers and Perrot said that DCNS along with several other companies had responded with the PA2 design. He said that because in the past Brazil had purchased second-hand carriers, a specifications outline had not been required until now.

Perrot noted that following the collapse of the BAE Systems-DCNS collaboration on aircraft carrier design, the French company had continued the design work and produced the PA2 design with conventional propulsion and a catapult assisted launch and recovery system.

‘From the French side, we see the future is with the catapult system and the Brazilian Navy has a history of using catapult-launched aircraft,’ Perrot said.

The Brazilian Navy operates the A-4 Skyhawk carrier-based aircraft, which are being upgraded by Embraer, but long-term the aircraft will be replaced. However, it is not expected to select a replacement until the Brazilian Air Force has chosen its next generation fighter under the FX-2 project. The three choices for FX-2 are the F-18, Rafale, and the Gripen.

‘Because two of those three have carrier variants available it makes sense for the navy to wait until the air force has chosen its FX-2 aircraft and then base its own decision on this,’ Perrot said.

The Clemenceau-class aircraft carrier Sao Paulo was originally in French Navy service as the Foch and entered Brazilian service in 2000. The 32,800t ship completed an upgrade programme in 2011 and although it is not expected to be replaced until well into the next decade, initial work will have to begin now.

Perrot believes that similar to its submarine and surface ship programmes, the Brazilian Navy will want to build its new ships domestically, with support from experienced international companies to develop an industrial base to carry out this work.

The decision to proceed with the RfP is awaiting governmental approval.
 

thebig C

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I thought Brazil might have looked at the mothballed Spanish carrier, even thought its a lot smaller then their current vessel.

C
 

kaiserbill

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thebig C said:
I thought Brazil might have looked at the mothballed Spanish carrier, even thought its a lot smaller then their current vessel.

C
Why though?

It may have some limited value as an helicopter carrier due to it's size, but it can only operate VSTOL aircraft, and an aircraft that will rapidly disappear in the not too distant future to boot.
Also, VSTOL is not something that Brazil seems interested in at all, as far as I know.

Even if they were, would you be able to operate the F-35B off this vessel?
The F-35 is longer, wider, and weighs almost 2,5 times heavier empty, and over twice as heavy when loaded to the max than the biggest Harrier variant.

I suspect that if Brazil does get serious about a new carrier, it will be a CATOBAR carrier, that fits in with their ambitions. (ala the SSN)

In this regard, you'd suspect they would look at the British or French programmes.

Still, I can still see the Sao Paulo steaming around in Brazilian service in 20 years time.
 

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I think the recent social unrest over the likes of the World Cup and Olympics may have curbed the Brazilian ambitions for big ticket items, just look at the farse over the new combat aircraft which really is an urgent requirement and still outstanding. The chances of an order for a new carrier built to replace San Paulo are slim at best.

I think it was mentioned in discussions at the time of the recent Fench Defence White Paper that the PA-2 is now being regarded more as a long term project to replace the Charles de Gaulle CVN rather than complement it. I wonder when the time finally comes that they do our trick and order two for economies of scale as that appears to be the only way to get two carriers as they don't appear able to stagger orders without them being deferred back to the point of cancellation. Remember they did want two CdG class to replace the Foch class, the 2nd ship getting deffered back until it morphed into the PA2 prgramme which faired no better.
 

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My personnal opinion is that the CdG uniqueness makes things harder. I never liked the idea of a mixed fleet - the CdG would have been nuclear powered but too small, and the PA-2 would have faced opposite issues.
So what will happen when the next crisis will erupt ?
If the CdG not available - either a) Armée de l'Air Rafales, on forward bases (Quatar) or with IFR (if the MRTT are ever bought) or
b) a mix of Scalp cruise missiles (from the frigates) with BPC-based Tigre helicopters.
 

Triton

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Artist's impression of DCN/Thales PA-2 concept circa 2006.

Source:
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/france-steaming-ahead-on-pa2cvf-carrier-project-01621/
http://oldwww.btk.elte.hu/eu/old/euronaval.htm
 

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Grey Havoc

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DCNS seem to be taking a different track now, namely 'The Evolved Aircraft Carrier (DEAC)':

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/9951/DCNS_To_Unveil_New_Future_Aircraft_Carrier_Design_At_Defexpo_2014

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?235215


DCNS will present a future Aircraft Carrier design at this years DEFEXPO in New Delhi, India.

The Evolved Aircraft Carrier (DEAC) is based on French Navy CVN Charles de Gaulle’s combat proven design and aviation system and is compatible with all CTOL aircrafts (including Airborne Early Warning aircraft) and features the latest technologies including cutting-edge Combat System (SETIS®), UAV integration, advanced conventional propulsion and state-of-the-art platform stabilisation system (SATRAP/COGITE).

In addition to the design, DCNS offers customised transfer of technology, material packages, dedicated infrastructures development (i.e. naval base and construction/maintenance shipyard) as well as life support solutions.
 

lancer21

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No images yet of the DEAC project from Defexpo 2014? All i find on the net is what appears to be (older?) images of older projects like those already posted above. Thanks.
 

Triton

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lancer21 said:
No images yet of the DEAC project from Defexpo 2014? All i find on the net is what appears to be (older?) images of older projects like those already posted above. Thanks.
I wouldn't despair just yet, Defexpo is through Sunday, February 9, 2014. In the meantime, I will continue to look for information and images concerning the DCNS Evolved Aircraft Carrier (DEAC).
 

lancer21

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Thanks Triton, i'll keep an eye out too.

PS: well, this article seems to suggest it's not actually a new design, so it's only the same "RXX" perhaps under another name?

http://www.meretmarine.com/fr/content/inde-le-pa2-en-bonne-place-sur-le-stand-dcns-defexpo

Not clear if this is from Defexpo 2014:

 

lancer21

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Well, dunno if this is the DEAC or not (2 shaft vs 3 shaft on earlier models?), and if it's basically the same design as presented in 2010:




http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1551
 

Grey Havoc

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It's possible that the DEAC is primarily an attempt by DCNS to sell a CVN design to India by the back door, allowing the Indians to concentrate their resources on developing an indigenous naval reactor, rather than design a whole CVN from scratch.
 

Triton

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The same model was displayed at the DCNS booth at Defexpo 2012 as the PA2. Looks like we were misled by the article that the DCNS Evolved Aircraft Carrier (DEAC) was a new aircraft carrier design. Perhaps DCNS re-branded the design because the PA2 project was cancelled in the 2013 French White Paper on Defence and National Security.
 

lancer21

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Would you think there is any chance PA2 might come back in a future White Paper? Or indeed, any chance of some sort of joint use (Royal Navy and Aeronavale) of the second QE (has to be finished as a CATOBAR if so)?
 

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DEAC appears to be the 3rd major iteration of the PA2 design. The last picture below is probably most representative of what it would look like.

1) PA2 R9X (Euronaval 2004)
59,000 tons, 284 meters, 27 knots.
Very retro styling (tripod mast, boats in open bays along the side).
Single Empar-style radar (sometimes replaced in CG images by a pyramidal Herakles).
4 arrestor wires.

2) PA2 RXX aka. PADSX (Euronaval 2010)
59,000 tons, 284 meters, 26 knots.
Full electric propulsion, probably in order to future-proof for installation of EMALS catapults.
New 3 shaft layout, more complex, may have been dictated by limitations on electric motor size (~20MW per shaft).
Efforts to improve hydrodynamics (extended transom skirt) to reduce the speed penalty (only 26 kts).
Generally cleaner look, reduced radar cross section (enclosed sponsons, cleaner aerials).
New pair of 3D radars (Herakles + Smart-S).
Arrestor wires reduced to 3.
Flight deck widened to port, waist catapult shifted outward.

3) DEAC (Euronaval 2012, LAAD 2013, DEFEXPO 2014*)
"52,000 tons class", 272 meters, 27 knots.
Export version. Efforts to reduce size and cost, name changed from "PA2" to "Evolved Aircraft Carrier".
Hull shortened by ~12 (?) meters at the stern (loss of 1 aircraft parking spot), no more transom skirt, longer bulbous bow.
Cheaper, more compact propulsion: 2-shafts, hybrid electric (CODLAG) or COGAG. May indicate that EMALS is less of a priority.
Further radar cross section reduction detail work (Herakles radar installed on a stealthier mast with inclined faces)
Landing area and wires shifted forward due to shorter hull.


* Note: the DEAC model does not appear completely accurate. It looks like a modded RXX model. The transom skirt has been cut-off, the center shaft line removed and the outside shaft lines shortened accordingly. The island detail work (aerials) has also been updated. However, the hull has not been shortened and the landing area and wires are still set back like on RXX.
 

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H_K

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DEAC's specs from the DCNS website. The export focus and slight reduction in size are quite clear. EMALS seems unlikely:



Power projection and air supremacy. During operational deployments with an air wing of 38 aircraft, it will be able to carry out up to 75 air missions per day for extended periods

Improved naval aviation capabilities. The new DCNS aircraft carrier is designed to operate during 6-month missions with an embarked Air Wing based on Rafale fighters and Hawkeye early warning aircraft. it is also a excellent platform to command a task force.

Longer intervals between shorter refits.The ship offers improved maintainability and at-sea availability thanks to lessons learned through fleet-wide through-life support

Global offers.
With the ship, DCNS may also deliver:
- A technology transfer programme through local partnership
- Efficient supply chain services
- Aviation equipment maintenance services.
- Maintenance contracts with a commitment on technical availability
- A complete range of simulators and trainings


Operations Proven Solutions.

The main guidelines for this Aircraft Carrier are:
- A flight deck and aviation facilities based on existing solutions and taking into account several years of feedback from FNS Charles de Gaulle
- A Combat system using FREMM technology
- Sea-proven power and propulsion solutions.
- DCNS upgraded boilers for the steam catapults


Characteristics

- Length (flight deck): 272 m
- Beam (flight deck) : 67.5 m (37.5 at waterline)
- Displacement : 52000t class
- Range: 5000 to 9000 nm
- Endurance: 5-week mission without replenishment at sea.
- Speed: 27 knots
- Crew (ship + air wing): 900+650
- Passengers : 220

- Special attention has been paid to living conditions.

Propulsion Architecture
- COGAG or CODLAG with 2 shaft lines

Aircraft Facilities (for 30 to 40 aircraft such as Rafale, Hawkeye, NH90 or similar)
- 13400 m2 flight deck
- 2 x 90 m steam catapults
- 3 arresting gears
- 1 barricade for emergency recovery
- 4800 m2 hangar
- 2 aircraft elevators

Combat System
- SETIS

Main Equipment
- 3D long-range multifunction radar
- 3D medium-range multifunction radar
- EW suite
- 8 surface-to-air missiles in VLS
- CIWS based on short missiles and/or small/medium gun

Source: http://en.dcnsgroup.com/naval/products/aircraft-carrier/


Compare to the previous PA2 RXX specs in Triton's post # 54:

Triton said:
From the DCNS Group web site:

Carrier group centrepiece

As the centrepiece of a powerful naval aviation force, an aircraft carrier offers a strategic advantage thanks to its air/sea dominance and power projection and deep strike capabilities. After developing and building CVN Charles de Gaulle (1987-1996) DCNS is now designing a next-generation aircraft carrier offering increased power projection capabilities, optimised maintainability and improved at-sea availability. The interval between refits will be extended and their duration reduced. All systems will be more accessible and equipment handling greatly improved.

Longer intervals between shorter refits. The PA DSX will offer improved maintainability and at-sea availability thanks to lessons learned through fleet-wide through-life support. Special attention will be paid to living conditions for the reduced crew of 900. The ship will accommodate an air wing, a command team and other passengers.

The PA DSX design’s capabilities include air/sea control over a wide area, strike attacks against land and maritime targets along with missions as part of a carrier group or in cooperation with allied forces. On operational deployments with an air wing of 40 aircraft, the PA DSX will be able to carry out up to 75 air missions per day for extended periods.

Key points
  • All-electric ship with a powerful propulsion system
  • Improved naval aviation capabilities
  • Reduced crewing (complement of 900)
  • Improved living conditions
  • Improved access to all major systems
  • Speed: 18 to 22 knots
Technical data. Conventional propulsion version.
  • Length overall (flight deck): 285 m
  • Beam overall (flight deck): 69 m
  • Displacement (start of life): 59,000 tonnes
  • Displacement (end of life): 62,000 tonnes
  • Draught (end of life): 10 m
  • Speed: 26 knots / > 20 knots on (n-1) shafts
  • Propulsion: electricEndurance (with 30% reserve): 8,000 nm at 15 knots / 5,000 nm at 22 knots
  • Fuel oil capacity: 3,800 tonnes
  • Jet fuel capacity: 3,400 tonnes
  • Magazine (munitions): 800 tonnes[
  • Hangar area: 4,800 sq m
  • Accommodation: 1,690
  • Flight deck, area: 13,400 sq m
Source: http://en.dcnsgroup.com/naval/products/aircraft-carriers-family/
 
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