Dassault Rafale

[helmutkohl]

With news that Boeing has done ski jump tests with the Shornet and is offering it to India..
has the Rafale done ski jump tests of its own?

No, rafale hasn't yet been tested for being viable to launch off a ski jump.

logistically speaking, should India acquire new aircraft for its carriers.. it should be either the Rafale or more MiG-29Ks
since they already operate the type.
I also thought they placed a ban on foreign systems or something this year

The larger issue is the fact that rafale doesn't fit on the lifts. Even though dassault has assured that it has a method of removing the wingtips every time the jet uses the lift(not sure how that would reduce its wingspan in any significant way), I'm not sure if such a solution would inspire any confidence in the indian navy.

Even the F18E/F will fit only by tilting it on its longitudnal axis. (stated by boeing)

Mig 29k folded wingspan - 26 ft
F-18E/F folded wingspan - 32 ft
Rafale fixed wingspan - 36 ft

thanks for the wingspan info
I wonder if the F-35C could squeeze in by angling it like the hornet.. its 29.8

 

[Bhurki]

With news that Boeing has done ski jump tests with the Shornet and is offering it to India..
has the Rafale done ski jump tests of its own?

No, rafale hasn't yet been tested for being viable to launch off a ski jump.

logistically speaking, should India acquire new aircraft for its carriers.. it should be either the Rafale or more MiG-29Ks
since they already operate the type.
I also thought they placed a ban on foreign systems or something this year

The larger issue is the fact that rafale doesn't fit on the lifts. Even though dassault has assured that it has a method of removing the wingtips every time the jet uses the lift(not sure how that would reduce its wingspan in any significant way), I'm not sure if such a solution would inspire any confidence in the indian navy.

Even the F18E/F will fit only by tilting it on its longitudnal axis. (stated by boeing)

Mig 29k folded wingspan - 26 ft
F-18E/F folded wingspan - 32 ft
Rafale fixed wingspan - 36 ft

thanks for the wingspan info
I wonder if the F-35C could squeeze in by angling it like the hornet.. its 29.8

Won't work.
F-35C strictly requires the catapult.

A notional lower limit value of T/W required at take off was cited as 0.85 (stobar limitation) by a retired pilot who has flown the Mig-29k off the Kiev class. (about 15% more weight than thrust, 20 ton limit for mig 29k with a thrust of 17.5 tons)

So, a F35c with a thrust of 19 tons will be constricted to a takeoff weight of no more than 22 tons, and considering it weighs nearly 16 tons empty, the weight fraction remaining for fuel and payload would not be meaningful.

Also, even if it might fit physically by 'angling', there probably isn't enough room for diplomatic or geostrategic 'angling' for US to sell them to India.

 

[TomcatViP]

Possible (and plausible) Rafale sale to UAE (In Fr) :

Ces sources précisent seulement que ce contrat, s'il est signé, le sera avant l'élection présidentielle de 2022
----------------------
Sources only tell us that the contract could be signed before the next [French] presidential election in 2022

La France s'apprêterait à signer un contrat de Rafale avec les Emirats arabes unis

Après la Grèce et l'Indonésie, les Emirats arabes unis seraient en discussion avec la France pour s'équiper de Rafale. Ce contrat pourrait être signé d'ici 2022.

www.bfmtv.com

Notice that Greece and the UAE are engaged in a formal defense pact and share a fleet of M2K (soon to be modernized). With the UAE industry looking for option for their own armament industry (read comments above), the delivery of technology to qualify UAE hardware onto Greek Rafale could be the incentive for them to request some Rafale.
Another option could be the lift of ban to re-sale their M2K9 to Greece. In that case the UAE would trade their Mirage for some new Rafale.

Given that, according to Dassault snail like production numbers, no delivery should certainly be expected before 2024/25 and that buying UAE's Mirage in the 2030's wouldn't make much sense for Greeks, we might see another late furloughing of AdlAE's Rafale before President Macron leaves office...

 

[Deltafan]

Possible (and plausible) Rafale sale to UAE (In Fr) :

Ces sources précisent seulement que ce contrat, s'il est signé, le sera avant l'élection présidentielle de 2022
----------------------
Sources only tell us that the contract could be signed before the next [French] presidential election in 2022

La France s'apprêterait à signer un contrat de Rafale avec les Emirats arabes unis

Après la Grèce et l'Indonésie, les Emirats arabes unis seraient en discussion avec la France pour s'équiper de Rafale. Ce contrat pourrait être signé d'ici 2022.

www.bfmtv.com

Notice that Greece and the UAE are engaged in a formal defense pact and share a fleet of M2K (soon to be modernized). With the UAE industry looking for option for their own armament industry (read comments above), the delivery of technology to qualify UAE hardware onto Greek Rafale could be the incentive for them to request some Rafale.
Another option could be the lift of ban to re-sale their M2K9 to Greece. In that case the UAE would trade their Mirage for some new Rafale.

Given that, according to Dassault snail like production numbers, no delivery should certainly be expected before 2024/25 and that buying UAE's Mirage in the 2030's wouldn't make much sense for Greeks, we might see another late furloughing of AdlAE's Rafale before President Macron leaves office...

Nothing is made with UAE (the purchase of Rafale by UAE is dicussed since 2008 with many ups and downs) and 2022 is far away.

For Rafale production, the only problem was to maintain the production line, because of the gap of deliveries between 2024 and 2027 (problem already attenuated with the purchase of 6 new planes by Greece and the French order normally to come to replace the 12 used Rafales planned for Greece). But if export sales were to become significant, there will be no more gap and Dassault could increase production rates and not stay with the 11 Rafale per year rate.

 

[Archibald]

Not too long ago the UAE was desperately trying to dump their 2000-9s to anybody interested... what motivated this change of mind ?

 

[Deltafan]

Not too long ago the UAE was desperately trying to dump their 2000-9s to anybody interested... what motivated this change of mind ?

Maybe because of their use ? (for example Libya ?)

Otherwise, one reason why replacing the 2000-9s with Rafales may not be in the UAE's short term plans:
UAE Launch $929M Upgrade of Mirage2000-9 Fleet (defense-aerospace.com)

To be continued...

 

[TomcatViP]

Make sure you've noticed the amount of the contract...

 

[Deltafan]

As usual...

 

[TomcatViP]

We are trying to get an understanding of the situation and for that we make use of every clues. So, it's not a tipsy "as usual" but a matter of facts that India and the UAE had to pay around one billion for the upgrade of their fleet.

 

[Deltafan]

As it's a matter of fact that the amount of a contract also depends on the work requested by customers and that a contract is signed by two parties. And if one of the two parties does not agree, it does not sign...

 

[TomcatViP]

If you're suggesting upgrade would not be made, someone should inform Greek MoD. He is in all appearances counting for an unlimited of it.

 

[Bhurki]

^ thanks for the detailed answer
are the lifts on the two carriers going to be the same? The Gorshkov (sorry forgot the indian name) and the new carrier.

The lifts look the same size.

 

[Deltafan]

If you're suggesting upgrade would not be made, someone should inform Greek MoD. He is in all appearances counting for an unlimited of it.

I can only said that the last year, there was a contract of 260 million euro between France (Dassault, Thales and Safran) and Greece to upgrade 24 Mirage 2000-5 over seven years (upgrade and sustainment of these Mirage 2000-5’s electronics and of their engines).

Greek Ministry of Defense Contracts to Upgrade Mirage 2000-5 Fleet - MilitaryLeak

For the rest...

Otherwise, we are on the topic of the Rafale.

 

[TomcatViP]

Yes, but this one (that should be linked in the M2K thread already) is the limited one that's mostly focused on obsolescence.
The M2K-5 didn't get the chance to get ASW capabilities, forcing them to rely on their older M2KEGM/BGM for Exocet strikes with a disparate fleet.

What we are discussing now is the unmentioned amount that will open unlimited upgrades, such as the one valued in Billions in India and the UAE.

Seems you've read only what you wanted... As usual

 

[Deltafan]

Yes, but this one (that should be linked in the M2K thread already) is the limited one that's mostly focused on obsolescence.
The M2K-5 didn't get the chance to get ASW capabilities, forcing them to rely on their older M2KEGM/BGM for Exocet strikes with a disparate fleet.

What we are discussing now is the unmentioned amount that will open unlimited upgrades, such as the one valued in Billions in India and the UAE.

Seems you've read only what you wanted... As usual

And where is the link where is mentioned this "unmentioned (?) amount that will open unlimited (?) upgrades, such as the valued in Billions (?) in India and the UAE".

Otherwise, about "disparate" fleets, there is not only Greece in the world, and not only with Mirage 2000...

And yes, "as usual", I prefer proven facts that not proven facts to discuss.

Well, for the moment, we have :

-260 millions euros for the upgrade of 24 Mirage 2000-5 in Greece (see link above)

-929 millions dollars for the upgrade of around 60 Mirage 2000-9 in UAE (see link above)

-1.4 billions euros for the upgrade of 49 Mirage 2000H/TH for India, the first in France and the 48 others in India by HAL (according to Wikipedia in French)

And, of course, the upgrades are not necessarily the same in these three lands...

Today in France, one dollar quotes 0.81 euro.

And we are always on the Rafale's topic...

 

[Archibald]

Folks,

I respectfully declare you, Secretprojects.co.uk official Statler and Waldorf.

Arguing about Mirage and Rafale costs a December 31 ? really ?

 

[TomcatViP]

Since my last post was removed, let's remind all that the 260million upgrade cited above only involved obsolescence on the M2K5, not their M2K EGM/BGM and not including ASW capabilities or Exocet carrying.
The UAE's M2K9 upgrade, ones already at a more advanced standard than Greek M2K5, will push modernization forward and can't in any way be compared to what's in the 2018 contract for Greek Mirage.
Today, the Rafale deal includes modernisation of the infamous Exocet capable M2K EGM/BGM and their remaining fleet of M2K5 with an unlimited access to available upgrade.

Given that India paid more that 1 billion for their M2KI upgrade (already at a more advanced stage than the basic M2K5) and UAE as much, it is doubtful that the amount of the Greek upgrade (Greece owns in effect 19 EGM/BGM and 24 M2K5) could have fitted in the Rafale publicly disclosed contract, raising the question of Who will pay for that...

Simple and indisputable.

 

[TomS]

not including ASW capabilities or Exocet carrying.

ASW means antisubmarine warfare. I think you want ASuW for antisurface warfare.

 

[Deltafan]

Since my last post was removed, let's remind all that the 260million upgrade cited above only involved obsolescence on the M2K5, not their M2K EGM/BGM and not including ASW capabilities or Exocet carrying.
The UAE's M2K9 upgrade, ones already at a more advanced standard than Greek M2K5, will push modernization forward and can't in any way be compared to what's in the 2018 contract for Greek Mirage.
Today, the Rafale deal includes modernisation of the infamous Exocet capable M2K EGM/BGM and their remaining fleet of M2K5 with an unlimited access to available upgrade.

Given that India paid more that 1 billion for their M2KI upgrade (already at a more advanced stage than the basic M2K5) and UAE as much, it is doubtful that the amount of the Greek upgrade (Greece owns in effect 19 EGM/BGM and 24 M2K5) could have fitted in the Rafale publicly disclosed contract, raising the question of Who will pay for that...

Simple and indisputable.

Not seen this previous post.

As said before : of course, the upgrades are not necessarily the same in these three lands...
At this point nothing is new... And everybody can find on the net what is made for what for the contracts of Greece (260 millions €), UAE (929 millions $) and India (1.4 billion €).

"infamous Exocet capable M2K EGM/BGM" : why infamous ?

where is "unlimited" written ? Where is a link about this ?

And when we'll have the complete contract between France and Greece about the Rafale (and possibly the part for the Mirage 2000) we'll see who pays what.
And then, and only then, we'll can see if there is anything "doubtful", or not ...

 

[TomcatViP]

If you have nothing to say and doesn't know what we are talking about, maybe you should consider that this might not worth a post...

 

[dan_inbox]

If you have nothing to say and doesn't know what we are talking about

Hmm. Wasn't 2021 supposed to start off better than 2020?
Congrats on such positive contributions to the forum's atmosphere. That really what SPF needs...

 

[Deltafan]

If you have nothing to say and doesn't know what we are talking about, maybe you should consider that this might not worth a post...

And the readers of SPF are still waiting for the answers (and the sources/links) to the previous post for "infamous", "unlimited" and Mirage 2000 part for France-Greece Rafale contract

 

[TomcatViP]

@dan_inbox : and purporting forum co-members isn't?
@Deltafan : Santa didn't came with a scrollback button on your mouse?

 

[Deltafan]

@Deltafan : Santa didn't came with a scrollback button on your mouse?

I can only find what you said, or what H_K said. No link.

Where is (you) "The statement of the Greek gov official was in the English spoken Greek press. It includes M2K upgrade (all available upgrade) ?

H_K said : "There is some confusion on the total cost because there are multiple contracts being signed, including some for unconnected stuff like drone upgrades. All they’ve said is that the Rafales will cost €1.92B and the weapons will cost €400M. Other sources have mentioned €100M for the Mirage upgrade (which may or may not be included in the above numbers) and a total cost of €2.5B."

Then, I repeat :

"infamous Exocet capable M2K EGM/BGM" : why infamous ?

where is "unlimited/non-limited" written ("remember that it has been agreed that this will be a "non-limited"upgrade") ? Where is a link about this ?

And when we'll have the complete, and official, contract between France and Greece about the Rafale (and possibly a part for the Mirage 2000) we'll see who pays what. And then, and only then, we'll can see if there is anything "doubtful", or not ...

 

[dan_inbox]

@dan_inbox : and purporting forum co-members isn't?

Could you try saying this in English? (or French if you prefer)
In case you mean 'supporting', clearly I don't support being impolite and aggressive against a well-known and respected forum member whose contributions are consistently well informed and thoughtful.

 

[Deltafan]

Thanks Dan

Well, let's try to be constructive and let's forget the term "infamous" (even though I don't quite see its use in the context...).

My problem is to have OFFICIAL LINKS. Several times since the announce of the Greece-France Rafale deal I found mistakes and confusions on some links/articles. Maybe the origin of the problem is the translation from greek language.

-Confusions for the replacement of Mirage 2000 EGM/BGM or 2000-5 (?) by the 18 Rafale...

-Confusions between the upgrade for 10 Mirage 2000 EGM to Mirage 2000-5 in the today's Rafale deal with the old 2000-5 deal

-Confusions with the replacement of 2000 EGM/BGM and the upgrade of 10 of them.

In the French media, I never found something about the upgrade of 10 Mirage 2000 EGM to the 2000-5 level. There is only the "replacement" of the Mirage 2000 EGM/BGM by 18 Rafale.

There is some articles, in English, on the upgrade of 10 Mirage 2000 EGM to the 2000-5 level in the Rafale deal subject (even if a great part of these articles speaks only of the "replacement" of the Mirage 2000 EGM/BGM by 18 Rafale). But, as I understand, some refer to the old 2000-5 deal, not to the new Rafale deal. And I understand that later articles in English made a confusion between the two deals.

Maybe I am wrong. But to be sure, I need links on official statements (that I did not find) to assess the credibility of the information, not intermediate articles/opinions...

But no credible link (from my point of view) is now arrived to me. That's why I say that it is better to wait for the official contract of the Greece-France Rafale deal to judge what is inside with, or not, a 2000 part.

After we get this we can restart on what is "doubtful" or not, on "billions", and on "who pays what"...


Edit :

After two postponements, the French media announced that the signing would take place in the first half of January.

 

[Antonio]

This thread is already going into a personal confrontation, please try to post objective information or go back into a constructive conversation. Otherwise it will be closed

 

[Deltafan]

Contradictory would mean that something has been asserted and then reverted on the opposite of what it was. We are not here.
Do not lie.

Also, it's the international press that you have to read, not only the French one that fails regularly to be accurate on that matter on, let's say, romantic grounds...
Read also the Greek reports obviously (they have media in English like most countries and their MoD publish also in that language at the intention of the international audience).

Also this endless I want to be right is suffocating to say the least. There isn't any editorial line here that we should obey.

I use the word "contradictory" because, for example, some sources said that, for the Rafale deal, there will be an upgrade of 10 Mirage 2000 EGM to 2000-5 level and other sources said that the Rafale will replace all the Mirage 2000 EGM/BGM (or, at least, the EGM).

I read international press, even the Greek or other reports, that I try to translate with Google trad. In the Greek MoD press release (among others official links) I never found mention of the upgrade of 10 Mirage 2000 EGM/BGM to the 2000-5 level for the Rafale deal. That's why I ask to other forumers (insofar as, according to their statements, some SPF forumers had seen links in this direction) where were their sources/links for this information. Because, despite all my research, I did not find any official link confirming this information. But, for the moment, no one has given me such a link/source.

The question is not "I want to be right", but (to try) to give good informations to the SPF forumers who are interested in the subject. And, AFAIK, it's the only "editorial line" on SPF.

 

[TomcatViP]

Dassault just released 2021's yearly production output for Rafale with a low 13 units delivered (against 24 in 2019) and zero order logged despite all the talks.

Gros nuages pour Dassault Aviation

Avec 13 avions de combat Rafale Export et 34 jets d'affaires Falcon livrés en 2020, Dassault Aviation verra son chiffre d'affaires redescendre vers les 5 Md€. La crise est bien passée par là. Mais, pas seulement.

www.air-cosmos.com

 

[helmutkohl]

Greek parliament to vote this week on Rafale jets purchase

Greek lawmakers will vote this week on a bill opening the way for the purchase of 18 Dassault-made Rafale fighter jets from France for a total of 2.5 billion euros ($3.04 billion).

www.reuters.com

I guess given the current rise in hostility in the eastern Med.. it might get more easily green lighted

Greek lawmakers will vote this week on a bill opening the way for the purchase of 18 Dassault-made Rafale fighter jets from France for a total of 2.5 billion euros ($3.04 billion).

The agreement, expected to be signed by both countries’ ministers in Athens this month, is part of Greece’s plan to boost its defence capacity during an ongoing dispute with neighbouring Turkey on energy resources in the Mediterranean.

For the purchase and maintenance of six new and 12 used Rafale jets, Greece will spend 1.5 billion euros this year, about 400 million euros annually in 2022-23, 67 million euros in 2024 and 34 million euros in 2025.


The debate in parliamentary committees will start on Tuesday with a vote planned by the end of the week.

After a decade-long financial crisis that sapped almost a quarter of its national output, Greece was hoping for strong growth in 2020, but the coronavirus outbreak dashed its hopes. Greece projects 4.8 growth this year after an economic contraction of about 10% in 2020.

 

[TomcatViP]

The parallel is stunning b/w a parliament ratifying an acquisition and one that hasn't voiced a single opinion for the divestment...

 

[TomcatViP]

Greek parliament approves purchase of Rafale fighters from France

Greek lawmakers approved the purchase of 18 Dassault-made Rafale jets from France for 2.5 billion euros ($3.04 billion) on Thursday, in a deal due to be signed by the Greek and French defence ministers later this month.

www.reuters.com

All of Greece’s political parties, with the exception of the Communist party and Gianis Varoufakis’ Mera25, voted for the bill which was approved by a Greek parliamentary committee late Tuesday under a fast track procedure.

The Standing Committee on National Defense and Foreign Affairs discussed three contracts under the bill, including six new and twelve used Rafale jets, at a cost of €1.5 billion this year.

Rafale Jets Purchase Approved by Greek Parliament

The Greek Parliament approved overwhelmingly on Thursday the purchase of 18 French-made Rafale fighter jets.

greece.greekreporter.com

Notice that migrants question was as predicted put on the table

 

[TomcatViP]

... and brace for another "used" Rafale deal with an offer made to Croatia that doesn't even include new built airframe.

 

[TomcatViP]

Dusting off an old recipe, French Gov offers Make in India Rafale for next multirole fighter contract:

French sources in the know of developments said Diplomatic Advisor to the French President, Emmanuel Bonne, who is on a visit to India, will make a pitch of the French government’s offer to make the Rafale fighters in India — if the numbers in play are closer to [at least] 100.

Dassault Aviation eyes Made-in-India Rafale, looks to raise investment in country

French firm Dassault is looking to manufacture Rafale jets in India, depending on the order size. But India will take a call after the delivery of the first 36 jets.

theprint.in

 

[TomcatViP]

And some more details as provided by Scramble.nl:

The most significant is that France proposes a complete shift of the Airbus AS565MBe Panther medium helicopter assembly line along with a Dassault Rafale's 70 percent assembly line to India with full transfer of technology.

Major military aviation industry proposal from France to India

Major military aviation industry proposal from France to India During the visit of by President Macron's Diplomatic Advisor Emmanuel Bonne during the first week of January, France...

www.scramble.nl

Interestingly, the machining, metal processing division of Airbus Helicopter (South of France) was just ravaged by a fire that destroyed much of the facility.

 

[TomcatViP]

Also, something that might push India back into Dassault arms:

Exclusive: India's friction with U.S. rises over planned purchase of Russian S-400 defence systems

The United States has told India it is unlikely to get a waiver on its planned acquisition of Russian S-400 air defence systems, raising the risk of sanctions similar to those imposed on Turkey for buying that equipment, people aware of the matter said.

www.reuters.com

 

[stealthflanker]

So, yeah. This is a Letter of Intent between ours and French MOD. about French Arms deal, involving ships, missiles and the Rafale.

The document is in Indonesian. but i believe it's clear enough for you guys to put into online translator XD.

Otherwise the important part are in blue rectangle. Which is something like :


"To provide mutual support for defense related equipments such as Dassault Rafale, Scorpene Class Submarine from Naval Group, missiles of French MBDA and Lafayette Frigate. The support would include for possibility of Co-development, servicing, refurbishment as well as upgrades of capability, within the perspective of Indonesian Ministry of Defense Acquisition program"

hopefully there is no lost in translation or sort of it :x.

I wonder how French Arms Acquisition works. in comparison for US... we sent a request or LOR (Letter of Request) then US State dept would scrutinize the request, then assign a DSCA which basically stated that we can buy x amount of equipment with deal of xxxx USD and informations like whether the scheme is FMS (Foreign Military Sale) or others. Following that there would be LOA or Letter of Acceptance, at this point the arms would be produced.. and our country is required to deposit initial payment to a special account made by the US State Dept.

For Russian arms.. it's handled by Rosoboroneksport which later appoint a local representative within the country which would handle the deal.

 

[helmutkohl]

^ on a related note.. is the Indonesian purchase of ex Austrian Eurofighters a done deal?

 

[Deltafan]

So, yeah. This is a Letter of Intent between ours and French MOD. about French Arms deal, involving ships, missiles and the Rafale.

The document is in Indonesian. but i believe it's clear enough for you guys to put into online translator XD.

Otherwise the important part are in blue rectangle. Which is something like :

"To provide mutual support for defense related equipments such as Dassault Rafale, Scorpene Class Submarine from Naval Group, missiles of French MBDA and Lafayette Frigate. The support would include for possibility of Co-development, servicing, refurbishment as well as upgrades of capability, within the perspective of Indonesian Ministry of Defense Acquisition program"

Thanks a lot stealthflanker

What is the source : Indonesian Press or Government ?

 

[stealthflanker]

So, yeah. This is a Letter of Intent between ours and French MOD. about French Arms deal, involving ships, missiles and the Rafale.

The document is in Indonesian. but i believe it's clear enough for you guys to put into online translator XD.

Otherwise the important part are in blue rectangle. Which is something like :

"To provide mutual support for defense related equipments such as Dassault Rafale, Scorpene Class Submarine from Naval Group, missiles of French MBDA and Lafayette Frigate. The support would include for possibility of Co-development, servicing, refurbishment as well as upgrades of capability, within the perspective of Indonesian Ministry of Defense Acquisition program"

Thanks a lot stealthflanker

What is the source : Indonesian Press or Government ?

It's a government document.