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Dassault Rafale

Lascaris

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Meteor will be available on F-35 as quick as they get their order complete. And F-35 is cheaper!

The only reason I see Rafale winning will be for the Exocet. But since foreign missiles (non-US) are now available with better range...

I know I know, you'll say ITAR free and other similar lullabies. But think a second: if Greeks start throwing anti-ship missiles (think at the number of casualties!) at another NATO member, you can be sure that, at this moment, ITAR free will have no meanings...

EDIT (see below):
what a complete surprise. Great thing.
I hope you are not under the impression we are not buying... both. Again. An F-35 buy is more or less considered to be a given. But is likely not coming before 2024-27.
 

marauder2048

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Dassault always amazes me with their production line minimum sustaining rate for Rafale.
 

helmutkohl

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are they they only country that will operate both the F-35 and the Rafale?
 

Deltafan

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Archibald

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Geez... 6 new Rafales. Meanwhile, F-35 production is gearing up for 3000 airframes: 500 times more. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 

Deltafan

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"These are six new devices and twelve which have been used a little," said the (Greek) prime minister, who on Saturday announced a major ten-year weapons program amid tensions with neighboring Turkey. "The first devices will arrive in Greece in 2021 and the purchase will be completed in early 2022," he said at a press conference in Thessaloniki (north), the country's second largest city. The Prime Minister did not specify the cost of this purchase of these devices which will replace the Mirage-2000, also French.
 

TomcatViP

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I am scared to learn that's it's another gold for a penny deal (e.g a donation) . President Macron has proved himself to be peculiarly spectacular in his own way by giving for nothing HUNDREDS of airframe
So far, we have a total of 123 airframe "sold" for 382M€* (50% of them sold for under 82M€ in total ) in 17 months**...
(quote from myself-sry- from December 2018)

Otherwise, it's probable that this deal (used airframe given away and replaced (?) by new order) would not have been possible without the EU recovery package... Hence, every Europeans can now claim she/he owns a bit of Rafale, making it, de-facto, the most European fighter aircraft of our time... Pronounce RafalEU. :rolleyes:

It all depends obviously on the agreed terms, but it is reasonably probable that the net balance in cost acquisition for the French Taxpayers will be a burden to carry among generations. Hence in 2040 (the due date to payback the EU support package) the future French will be hard paying (think at interest rates) a decades old fighter to protect the sky above them...
And you all well know what they fear the most!
 
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Deltafan

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Otherwise, it's probable that this deal (used airframe given away and replaced (?) by new order) would not have been possible without the EU recovery package... Hence, every Europeans can now claim she/he owns a bit of Rafale, making it, de-facto, the most European fighter aircraft of our time. :rolleyes:
Since the F-35 of Poland (the country which receives the most subsidies from the European Union each year) is the most european american fighter aircraft of our time... Pronounce Poland's F-35EU ?
 
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Deltafan

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I am scared to learn that's it's another gold for a penny deal (e.g a donation) . President Macron has proved himself to be peculiarly spectacular in his own way by giving for nothing HUNDREDS of airframe
So far, we have a total of 123 airframe "sold" for 382M€* (50% of them sold for under 82M€ in total ) in 17 months**...
(quote from myself-sry- from December 2018)
I don't understand what you're talking about.
 

helmutkohl

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with Greece buying it..
it seems that most of the Mirage 2000 customers are now becoming Rafale operators.

whats missing
Brazil, Taiwan and Peru?

(although Rafale did originally win in Brazil).
What are the chances of TW and PR getting some raffies
 

Deltafan

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1-Let's wait until the price details are given for this Rafale contract


2-There is a problem with your link. I cannot read any of the "donated airframes" in your link. Anybody can ?

I understand (because of the answers) that it's about retired Mirage F1, Super Etendard, Jaguar, Mirage 2000 and helicopters that, then, were no longer in service.

The responses to your post in your link give all the answers. I like in particular the answer of Sintra :

Pretty common stuff, Draken air bought 22 F-1´s from the Spanish for almost nothing, same for their Cheetah´s, the Marine Corps bought RAF Harriers for a beer and a bit of money, etc.
https://theaviationgeekclub.com/drak...e-f1-fighters/
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-15876745
Cheers
I let the readers judge.
 
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galgot

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with Greece buying it..
it seems that most of the Mirage 2000 customers are now becoming Rafale operators.

whats missing
Brazil, Taiwan and Peru?

(although Rafale did originally win in Brazil).
What are the chances of TW and PR getting some raffies
I don't see Peru having enough $$ for it. They had hard time paying for their M2000s, so for something more expensive...
Taiwan would naturally go for US stuff, but it would highly depend on what US would be willing to sell them in case of serious crisis with PRC.
For the moment it's not that serious so still only upgraded F-16s. With current US admin, very possible they could get F-35s if things get more hot.
The M2000-5 buy was at a time the US was in good terms with PRC and so not willing to sell advanced BWR (Amraam) capable fighters to Taiwan.
Fr sold M2000-5 with Mica (and other things, lot of money went in deep pockets...), and these contracts more than off balanced the threats and pressures from PRC to France.
 
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Deltafan

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with Greece buying it..
it seems that most of the Mirage 2000 customers are now becoming Rafale operators.

whats missing
Brazil, Taiwan and Peru?

(although Rafale did originally win in Brazil).
What are the chances of TW and PR getting some raffies
Peru, I don't know.

Taiwan is impossible.
Some years ago, when Taiwan wanted to buy a second batch of Mirage 2000, China threatened France with economic sanctions and since the economic exchanges between France and China were much more important than the sale of the Mirage 2000 to Taiwan (In particular, there were high hopes for cooperation on the automobile), France cancelled the sale. The situation has not changed.
In addition, since, there has been an international arbitration (2017) and a conviction ($ 223 million) for the use of financial commissions by French manufacturers (Dassault, Thomson, SNECMA) for the first sale (1992). French industrialists (now Dassault, Thales, SAFRAN) denied the facts, but paid for the condemnation.
 
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galgot

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with Greece buying it..
it seems that most of the Mirage 2000 customers are now becoming Rafale operators.

whats missing
Brazil, Taiwan and Peru?

(although Rafale did originally win in Brazil).
What are the chances of TW and PR getting some raffies
Peru, I don't know.

Taiwan is impossible.
Some years ago, when Taiwan wanted to buy a second batch of Mirage 2000, China threatened France with economic sanctions and since the economic exchanges between France and China were much more important than the sale of the Mirage 2000 to Taiwan (In particular, there were high hopes for cooperation on the automobile ), France cancelled the sale. The situation has not changed.
In addition, since, there has been an international arbitration (2017) and a conviction ($ 223 million) for the use of financial commissions by French manufacturers (Dassault, Thomson, SNECMA) for the first sale (1992). French industrialists (now Dassault, Thales, SAFRAN) denied the facts, but paid for the condemnation.
Yes. At the time of the M2000-5 buy, 1992, France could afford to sell weapons to Taiwan, it's clearly no more the case now. Economic exchanges with PRC were there but not important like big Airbus sales or other big things we have now, plus PRC wasn't the economic power it is now.
 
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helmutkohl

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Taiwan is impossible.
Some years ago, when Taiwan wanted to buy a second batch of Mirage 2000, China threatened France with economic sanctions and since the economic exchanges between France and China were much more important than the sale of the Mirage 2000 to Taiwan (In particular, there were high hopes for cooperation on the automobile), France cancelled the sale. The situation has not changed.
In addition, since, there has been an international arbitration (2017) and a conviction ($ 223 million) for the use of financial commissions by French manufacturers (Dassault, Thomson, SNECMA) for the first sale (1992). French industrialists (now Dassault, Thales, SAFRAN) denied the facts, but paid for the condemnation.
perhaps it could change in the near future?
Since the rise of Xi, a lot of countries have begun souring on the PRC's foreign policy and more willing to act against it
(although yes, there are still plenty who still fear PRC economic retaliation, like Disney)
with the PRC starting to buy more of its own domestic aircraft, it could also mean they wont use the Airbus card as much as before in any kind of retaliation
 

Deltafan

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Taiwan is impossible.
Some years ago, when Taiwan wanted to buy a second batch of Mirage 2000, China threatened France with economic sanctions and since the economic exchanges between France and China were much more important than the sale of the Mirage 2000 to Taiwan (In particular, there were high hopes for cooperation on the automobile), France cancelled the sale. The situation has not changed.
In addition, since, there has been an international arbitration (2017) and a conviction ($ 223 million) for the use of financial commissions by French manufacturers (Dassault, Thomson, SNECMA) for the first sale (1992). French industrialists (now Dassault, Thales, SAFRAN) denied the facts, but paid for the condemnation.
perhaps it could change in the near future?
Since the rise of Xi, a lot of countries have begun souring on the PRC's foreign policy and more willing to act against it
(although yes, there are still plenty who still fear PRC economic retaliation, like Disney)
with the PRC starting to buy more of its own domestic aircraft, it could also mean they wont use the Airbus card as much as before in any kind of retaliation
Frankly, I believe, on the contrary, that the increase in Chinese economic and military power will rather make matters worse ...
But I don't know the future ... (among other things, China can also collapse for internal reasons) In the very long term perhaps, but, in my opinion at that time there will only be Rafale in museums ...
 
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Lascaris

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are they they only country that will operate both the F-35 and the Rafale?
Probably going to be a while before Greece gets F-35s
The somewhat unofficial plan was for the F-35 deliveries to come after the Viper modernization program. Ie in the 2028-2030 timeframe. And to be blunt the US has too much influence within Greece for it not to happen. Rafale... I had lost all hope of seeing it in Greek colours till the recent crisis with Turkey by all accounts really shocked the Greek government most of the political class were firm believers that "wars no more happen". End result buying Rafales in a hurry as they were the only ones that could be immediately available to reinforce the air force particularly if you wanted something relatively long range. Erdoğan the greatest benefactor of the air force and navy.
 

Bhurki

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