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Dassault Rafale

Triton

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The Story of the Rafale documentary produced by New Delhi Television (NDTV).

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/fromndtv/257581
 

Grey Havoc

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Somewhat surprisingly, it looks like the Egyptian sale may go through: http://aviationweek.com/blog/egypt-possible-first-export-customer-french-rafale

Dassault Aviation is poised to win its first export sale for the Rafale combat jet, thanks to Egypt –- maybe.

Under the terms of a deal first reported by French newspaper Les Echos Feb. 6 –- a contract that is still being finalized –- Cairo would buy up to 24 aircraft and a FREMM frigate for up to €5 billion ($6.8 billion).

To pay for the agreement, France and Egypt are negotiating a loan guarantee with France's export credit agency, Coface, which would back half of the deal outside of a 15% downpayment, an arrangement agreed to this week by the French finance ministry.

But the reality is that France has little choice but to help foreign countries buy the Dassault-built Rafale.

According to the French military planning law (LPM) –- a six-year spending scheme that covers 2014-2019, the French government will have to continue shouldering the burden of producing 11 Rafale aircraft a year startin in 2016 if an export deal fails to materialize, a situation that risks busting France's annual €31.4 billion defense budget.

The deal with Egypt could be signed quickly, as Cairo wants the ship and the aircraft to parade during the inauguration of the Suez Canal expansion in August. But in order to get its aircraft, Egypt needs to deposit an advance payment, an amount that would signal the number of aircraft they are really ready to buy.

Egypt already has a a long history with French fighters, as Cairo was the first to sign up for the Mirage 2000 in 1981. The Rafale, which was introduced into service to the French armed forces in 2002, has yet to win an export deal, though 136 have been delivered to the French navy and air force, and Dassault has been in exclusive negotiations with India for the sale of 126 aircraft since Jan. 31, 2012.
 

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"French MoD Backs Dassault's Position on Indian Rafale"
by Caroline Bruneau in Ares

Feb 9, 2015

Source:
http://aviationweek.com/blog/french-mod-backs-dassaults-position-indian-rafale

After months of watching Dassault Aviation being brow-beaten in the Indian press, French arms procurement agency DGA defended its contractor, asserting that a 2012 agreement to provide Rafale fighter jets to New Delhi never committed the company to guarantee aircraft manufactured in India.

“Dassault will not be responsible for the whole contract. It is a co-management setup,” says French defense procurement chief Laurent Collet-Billon, who was clear that France will not assume full liability for the HAL-produced aircraft. “It cannot be a problem, because it was not in the request for proposals (RFP).”

Speaking to reporters during an annual media address Feb. 9 in Paris, France's arms procurement chief said the €10.2-billion ($12 billion) agreement – which has been under negotiation for more than three years – calls for the first 18 of 126 Rafale jets to be built in France. After that, India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) would take over production of the remaining 108 aircraft.

However, Dassault's responsibility for the latter has been the subject of heated negotiations between New Delhi and Paris in recent months.

“A lot of progress has been made since 2012,” says Collet-Billon, adding that as negotiations enter a fourth year, he wants to believe they will give way to a contract for the 126 fighters plus 63 options.

But Collet-Billon said talks with the Indian government have become bogged down over questions of production of the fighters on Indian soil.

"India has its own pace," he said of New Delhi officials. "It’s not useful to put pressure on the client. We have to live with our differences."

In the meantime, he says rival fighter suppliers pose no serious threat to the Rafale bid. After two failed attempts to export the French fighter – South Korea in 2002 and Brazil in late 2013 – the DGA has learned to be careful.

Collet-Billon says talks are more advanced in Egypt, where France could sell up to 24 Rafale fighters, a FREMM frigate and a number of armaments.

The first of these aircraft could be delivered in 2018, although a very impatient Egypt would want “a handful” very soon, which could be delivered in 2015, according to DGA officials.

These few aircraft would relieve the burden of the French government, which is on the hook to fund 11 Rafale jets per year to keep Dassault's production line viable.

To that end, France has planned to order 11 Rafale in 2015, but just four in 2016, assuming export sales will ultimately materialize.

Export is “crucial” to maintaining the current spending scheme of €31.4 billion per year on defense, Collet-Billon said.

“Problems will occur this year if we don't export Rafale aircraft," he said.
 

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"Effectively dead’: Media speculate on India’s purchase of $20bn French Rafale jets"
Published time: February 16, 2015 18:36

Source:
http://rt.com/news/232739-india-denied-rafale-contract/


Three years of negotiations between France’s Dassault and the contract negotiation committee of the India’s Defense Ministry on the purchase of 126 Rafale fighter jets may be about to collapse. Sources mostly blame the exorbitant price.

According to Business Standard, citing an anonymous source at the CNC, Dassault’s proposal turned out to be much more expensive than presented in the commercial bid, making it far from being the cheapest one, as announced on January 31, 2012.

If true, the reaction of India’s military is expected to deliver a hard blow to Dassault. The order has already decreased from 310 to 180 due to budget cuts.

This news may also make Cairo the first and only overseas buyer for Dassault’s Rafale. On Monday, France was announced to sign a 5.2 billion euro deal on export of 24 Rafale fighters to Egypt.

Rafale’s true cost for India turned out to be even higher than second-placed bid of Eurofighter Typhoon, which costs approximately €90 million.

“An inexperienced MoD, working off incomplete and sketchy details provided by Dassault, had incorrectly adjudged the Rafale cheaper. Now, after three years of obtaining clear figures from the French, we find India would be paying significantly more than had been initially calculated,” CNC official told Business Standard.

India’s MoD reportedly explains the confusion as due to an incorrect assessment of Life-Cycle Cost (LCC), which includes total expenses of overhaul and maintenance of the fighter during its 30-40 years in service.

So far, the Indian MoD has not issued any official statement on the situation with the Rafale contract.

The Dassault Rafale is a French twin-engine, multirole fighter aircraft. It was first introduced in 2011 for France’s Air Force and Navy.

France’s Dassault Aviations won the MMRCA contract in 2012. The original conditions implied production of the initial 18 Rafale fighter jets in France, with the remaining 108 to be manufactured at the state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) facility in India under a technology transfer agreement. The license for 108 aircraft to be produced in India envisaged that 74 Rafales would be rolled out in a single-seat version and 34 aircraft would be twin-seaters.

In late December 2014, Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar for the first time admitted that negotiations with Dassault were stalling.

Read moreIndia may reconsider $20 billion French Rafale jet deal in favor of Russia

India’s Prime Minister Shri Narendra Modi refused to fly in one of the three Rafale jets that arrived to the Aero India 2015 air show at Bangalore.

“It is clarified that there is no plan for the Prime Minister Shri Narendra Modi to fly in any fighter jet. The news item is incorrect, misconceived and is not based on facts,” stated the MoD last week thus distancing away from the deal even further.

India’s Defense Minister has also disillusioned Eurofighter GmbH, saying that procurement procedures do not allow to reassign the “preferred vendor.”

As the Rafale deal is dying off, Parrikar said the Russian-designed Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighter jet that have been produced in India since early 2000 offer a viable alternative.

“The Sukhoi 30 choice is always there. What I mean to say is: upgrade the Sukhoi 30, make it more capable,” Parrikar said.

The average cost of a Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighter jet is approximately $56 million.

“The Sukhoi-30MKI is an adequate aircraft for meeting the air force's needs,” Parrikar said.

The Su-30MKI fighter was specially developed for India by Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau and 200 aircraft has already entered IAF service as of August 2014.
 

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"Russia Proposes India Buy Su-30 Fighter Jets Instead of French Rafales"
The Moscow Times
Feb. 17 2015

Source:
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/russia-proposes-india-buy-su-30-fighter-jets-instead-of-french-rafales/516093.html


Russia has offered India additional Sukhoi Su-30 fighter jets after reports surfaced Monday that India may cancel a $20 billion contract with France for its Rafale warplanes, news agency RIA Novosti reported Tuesday, citing an executive at Russia's arms export agency.

"If they need additional Su-30MKI fighters, then we are ready to work out such an agreement," Rosoboronexport Deputy Director Sergei Goreslavsky was quoted as saying in an interview with RIA Novosti published Tuesday.

"This requires a request from the Indian side," added Goreslavsky, who is representing Rosoboronexport as the head of Russia's delegation to the Aero India 2015 air show. The exhibition opens in Bangalore, India on Wednesday.

India is one of Russia's largest arms customers, buying heavy equipment ranging from fighter jets to submarines and even an old Soviet-built aircraft carrier.

However, India in 2012 chose France's Rafale fighter jets over Russia's prototype MiG-35 in a massive $10 billion tender — one of the largest aerospace deals in history.

Russia has since lobbied to have India drop the deal, which has been stuck in negotiations for three years and swollen to a price of $20 billion.

On Monday, Indian newspaper Business Standard reported that India's defense ministry now considers the deal "effectively dead," after learning that France's Dassault misled India on the real cost of outfitting and operating the fighters over their operational lifetime.

France's failure to deliver the first of two Mistral-class helicopter carriers to the Russian navy last year might have also contributed to India's distancing itself from the Rafale deal, news agency TASS reported a representative of state defense concern Rostec as saying on Tuesday.
 

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"Russia Angles to Snatch $20Bln Indian Fighter Jet Deal From France"
by Matthew Bodner

Feb. 16 2015 21:46

Source:
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/russia-angles-to-snatch-20bln-indian-fighter-jet-deal-from-france/516023.html

Russia may be leveraging India's anger at French aerospace firm Dassault to kill a $20 billion aircraft deal, after allegations that the company seriously misled New Delhi on pricing its Rafale fighter jets.

After three years in limbo, Indian newspaper Business Standard reported on Monday that India's defense ministry now considers the contract "essentially dead."

Moscow lost out on the contract in 2012, when India chose Dassault's Rafale fighters over Russia's MiG-35 multi-role aircraft. With tensions between Russia and France high following Paris' decision last year to delay the delivery of two Mistral-class warships over conflict in Ukraine, analysts said that politics may have played a role in the demise of the French aerospace deal.

"Obviously, Russia is working to kill the French contract and they are [attacking] from all directions," Ruslan Pukhov, director of the Moscow-based Center for the Analysis of Strategy and Technology, a defense industry think tank, told The Moscow Times by phone on Monday.

But Petr Topychkanov, a military expert at the Carnegie Moscow Center, said that although Russia may be influencing India's position, "it does not mean that Russia will automatically get the deal," as the U.S. aerospace industry is also aggressively targeting the Indian market.
A Massive Tender

India's air force is aging, but New Delhi's strategic ambitions in Southeast Asia are rising. With its aging fleet of Soviet-era MiG-21 fighter jets fast approaching retirement, India's defense ministry announced a $10 billion tender for 126 foreign fighter jets in 2007.

One of the largest fighter jet tenders in history, India's call drew the attention of some of the world's largest aircraft manufacturers — such as France's Dassault, the U.S. behemoths Boeing and Lockheed Martin, and Russia's RSK MiG.

In 2012, India named Dassault the winner of the tender, which called for the localized production of all but 18 of the 126 aircraft under the arm of India's largest aerospace firm, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). Rafales were chosen in part because they were thought to be cheaper to produce and operate than other options.

But Dassault based its bid on incomplete pricing information that did not take into account the cost of outfitting and operating the fighters over their entire operational lifetime.

Over the course of three years of negotiations, the value of the contract has since swollen to $20 billion, and is now threatened by allegations surfacing in the Indian press that Dassault intentionally misled the defense ministry over the price.

Canceling the deal with France would be a reasonable next step, said Topychkanov,

"[Dassault] has not demonstrated any progress, and for India this deal was extremely important for the innovation of their aerospace industry — they cannot wait for years to get new warplanes."

Neither Dassault nor the Indian defense ministry could be reached for contact by The Moscow Times.
Russian Stopgap

Russia's RSK MiG, designer of some of the country's most famous fighter jets, was one of the major aerospace firms to bid for India's $10 billion tender back in 2007.

At the time, it proposed that India purchase its MiG-35 multi-role fighter, an aircraft that was and still is stuck in development. India's military leaders expressed little interest in the deal, though, as their tender required a fighter that had already proven itself and was in serial production.

Still, India's need for capable fighters in the near-term may open a window of opportunity to sell them Russia's long-produced Sukhoi Su-30.

According to Pukhov, "the longer they continue to postpone their decision on [Rafale], the more they need something to bridge the gap. That something is more batches of the Su-30."

India is familiar with the aircraft, having over 200 Su-30s already in service.

New Delhi so far appears to be responding favorably to Russian pressures to buy the Su-30.

In December, Manohar Parrikar, India's defense minister, said that negotiations with Dassault had run into unspecified complications, and that "[Russia's] Sukhoi Su-30MKI is an adequate aircraft for meeting the air force's needs."

Russia's Irkut Corporation, a subsidiary of the United Aircraft Corporation and the manufacturer of Sukhoi's Su-30, announced its intention to present a prospective modernization program for India's Su-30 fleet at the opening of the Aero India 2015 air show on Wednesday, the TASS news agency reported Monday.
Western Competition

A Russia-India joint project to develop a next-generation fighter aircraft, the Sukhoi PAK FA, may complicate Russia's bid.

"The fact is that India is no longer willing to give all of the expensive arms contracts to one single supplier," Topychkanov said.

Because of its engagement on the PAK FA project, India is more likely to favor bids for replacing the Dassault contract from U.S. Aerospace giants Boeing and Lockheed Martin — who offered up their F/A-18 Super Hornet and F-16 Falcon, respectively.

The United States also last year overtook Russia as India's number one arms supplier, and U.S. President Barack Obama and Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi recently negotiated a sweeping military-industrial cooperation agreement that is due to be signed later this year — a development that Carnegie's Topychkanov says heralds even greater arms trade between India and the United States.

Pukhov noted, though, that India may eventually use the fighter jets to counter regional adversary Pakistan — a U.S. ally. If India were to attack Pakistan with U.S. jets, there is the possibility that Washington might refuse to supply spare parts, making the United States unlikely to receive the contract, he said
 

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"French MoD Backs Dassault's Position on Indian Rafale"
Feb 9, 2015 by Caroline Bruneau in Ares

Source:
http://aviationweek.com/blog/french-mod-backs-dassaults-position-indian-rafale

After months of watching Dassault Aviation being brow-beaten in the Indian press, French arms procurement agency DGA defended its contractor, asserting that a 2012 agreement to provide Rafale fighter jets to New Delhi never committed the company to guarantee aircraft manufactured in India.

“Dassault will not be responsible for the whole contract. It is a co-management setup,” says French defense procurement chief Laurent Collet-Billon, who was clear that France will not assume full liability for the HAL-produced aircraft. “It cannot be a problem, because it was not in the request for proposals (RFP).”

Speaking to reporters during an annual media address Feb. 9 in Paris, France's arms procurement chief said the €10.2-billion ($12 billion) agreement – which has been under negotiation for more than three years – calls for the first 18 of 126 Rafale jets to be built in France. After that, India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) would take over production of the remaining 108 aircraft.

However, Dassault's responsibility for the latter has been the subject of heated negotiations between New Delhi and Paris in recent months.

“A lot of progress has been made since 2012,” says Collet-Billon, adding that as negotiations enter a fourth year, he wants to believe they will give way to a contract for the 126 fighters plus 63 options.

But Collet-Billon said talks with the Indian government have become bogged down over questions of production of the fighters on Indian soil.

"India has its own pace," he said of New Delhi officials. "It’s not useful to put pressure on the client. We have to live with our differences."

In the meantime, he says rival fighter suppliers pose no serious threat to the Rafale bid. After two failed attempts to export the French fighter – South Korea in 2002 and Brazil in late 2013 – the DGA has learned to be careful.

Collet-Billon says talks are more advanced in Egypt, where France could sell up to 24 Rafale fighters, a FREMM frigate and a number of armaments.

The first of these aircraft could be delivered in 2018, although a very impatient Egypt would want “a handful” very soon, which could be delivered in 2015, according to DGA officials.

These few aircraft would relieve the burden of the French government, which is on the hook to fund 11 Rafale jets per year to keep Dassault's production line viable.

To that end, France has planned to order 11 Rafale in 2015, but just four in 2016, assuming export sales will ultimately materialize.

Export is “crucial” to maintaining the current spending scheme of €31.4 billion per year on defense, Collet-Billon said.

“Problems will occur this year if we don't export Rafale aircraft," he said.
 

LowObservable

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1 - Nobody knows what's going on
2 - I trust RT as far as I can throw it
 

Triton

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LowObservable said:
1 - Nobody knows what's going on
2 - I trust RT as far as I can throw it
I post for discussion purposes. I don't vouch for the accuracy, or necessarily agree, with the content of the articles.
 

Triton

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"France in 'final stage' of talks to sell Rafale jets to Qatar"

By Cyril Altmeyer and Tim Hepher

PARIS Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:02pm EST

Source:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/17/us-dassault-rafale-idUSKBN0LL1LX20150217

(Reuters) - France is in the "final stage" of negotiations to sell up to 36 Rafale warplanes to Qatar, a senior French source involved in the discussions said on Tuesday.

Manufacturer Dassault Aviation is also in talks aimed at supplying 16 of the multi-role combat jets to Malaysia and has resumed discussions over potential fighter sales to the United Arab Emirates (UAE), the source said.

"The discussions (with Qatar) are at the final stage," the source said, asking not to be identified because of the sensitivity of the discussions.




Dassault Aviation declined to comment.

Analysts say the French company was boosted this week by a long-awaited first export deal for the Rafale with Egypt, but is likely to face intense competition for further sales as European, U.S. and Russian rivals step up export campaigns.

It was not immediately clear at what level talks with UAE were taking place, nor which side had initiated them.

The UAE publicly rebuffed an offer to supply 60 Rafale jets in 2011, calling the proposal "uncompetitive and unworkable".

Western defence contractors including Dassault, the four-nation Eurofighter consortium and U.S aerospace group Boeing are chasing overseas sales to prevent their production lines halting due to cuts in domestic defence budgets.

Tensions in the Middle East, instability in eastern Europe and concerns in parts of Asia about regional border threats and the rise of China have further fuelled the arms race, but shifts and sudden reversals in the various industry talks are common.

France said last June it was confident of winning a deal soon to supply fighter jets to Qatar, which is shopping initially for 24 jets plus 12 options to expand its air force.

Competitors include Boeing's F-15 fighter jet, while the U.S. manufacturer is also seeking sales for its declining F-18 model, which is reportedly in consideration in Malaysia.

Elsewhere in the Gulf, the Eurofighter and F-18 are competing for a possible Kuwaiti deal for 28 jets but the Rafale is not a leading contender there, according to French media.

The latest upbeat French comments come ahead of arms fairs in India, UAE and Malaysia within the next month starting with the biennial Aero India exhibition in Bengaluru from Wednesday.

India picked the Rafale three years ago over the Eurofighter Typhoon -- built by Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain -- for a contract to supply 126 planes, but a deal has not been signed.

India's Business Standard newspaper reported this week the contract was "effectively dead" due to disagreements over price.

But the French source indicated that Paris was optimistic that this week's sudden and unexpected deal with Egypt could speed up several other sets of talks, including those in India.

"The contract with Egypt could unblock three or four other ones," the source said.

Bilateral negotiations between Egypt and France took only five months, taking competitors and most industry experts off guard. Three jets a year are expected to be delivered to Egypt in 2015, 2016 and 2017 with the remaining 15 sent by mid-2019.

There was no formal competition, though one defence source said there had been exploratory contacts between Egypt and the Eurofighter consortium but that questions had arisen over the availability of rapid export licences from Britain and Germany.

Eurofighter said it was confident of winning other orders. A spokesman said it had also submitted an offer to Malaysia.

Egypt, which has been drawn into open military action in Libya after the beheading of Egyptian Christians this week, is also said to be interested in military transport aircraft.

It currently operates the Lockheed Martin C-130 and is the largest customer for the Airbus Group C-295, while it has long been a target for the Airbus A400M airlifter.
 

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"AERO INDIA: HAL defends ability to produce Rafale fighter"
By: Greg Waldron
Bangalore

February 19, 2015

Source:
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/aero-india-hal-defends-ability-to-produce-rafale-fighter-409235/

Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) chairman T Suvarnaraju has hit back at reports that an Indian deal to obtain 126 Dassault Rafale fighters is being held up by French concerns about the Indian manufacturer’s quality standards.

Suvaranraju was addressing the media at the Aero India show in Bengaluru, where local journalists have shown great interest in the Rafale programme and the HAL’s helicopter businesses.

Suvarnaraju stressed his faith in HAL’s products, adding that it produces components and structures for a number of major aircraft types, such as the forward doors for the Airbus A320 and the gun bay doors and wire harnesses for the Boeing F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet. The company has also worked on Boeing’s commercial programmes, including the 737 and 777, he said, and pointed to its long record in license-producing types such as the Sukhoi Su-30MKI, BAE Systems Hawk and Dornier 228.

Nonetheless, Suvarnaraju declines to confirm or deny persistent reports that Dassault is dubious about guaranteeing fighters produced by HAL. Under the original terms of the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) requirement, the first 18 Rafales are to be produced in France, and the subsequent 108 in India by HAL.

Dassault, which has the largest international presence at the show, also declines to comment on the status of its MMRCA negotiations, which have dragged on for four years following the Rafale’s selection in 2011.

Suvarnaraju also defended the reputation of the company’s Dhruv advanced light helicopter following recent crashes of the type in Ecuador and India. He says the reasons for the incidents are yet to be ascertained.

HAL says it is moving forward with plans for a factory to produce the planned light utility helicopter and naval multi-role helicopter for India's armed forces. The company has secured 610 acres of land in India’s Karnataka province where it will build production facilities with the capability to produce helicopter engines, aerostructures and other systems.

In a separate press conference, Indian air force Air Marshal Arup Raha said that obsolescence in the service’s Mikoyan MiG-21 fleet means that obtaining the Rafale is an urgent priority for the service. He declined to respond to questions about what the air force will do if negotiations over the MMRCA programme between Dassault and India’s defence ministry fall through.
 

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Thursday, February 19, 2015

"Rafale & Sukhoi Can't Replace Each Other: IAF Chief"

Source:
http://www.livefistdefence.com/2015/02/rafale-sukhoi-cant-replace-each-other.html

Amidst swirling speculation that India's M-MRCA jet deal with Rafale is shuddering through final lap turbulence, and suggestions (including by Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar himself) that the India could buy more Su-30 MKI jets if the Rafale deal didn't work out, Indian Air Force chief Arup Raha today publicly declared that the Rafale and Su-30 were different aircraft and that one couldn't replace the other.

"There's M-MRCA and there's Sukhoi-30. The requirements are slightly different. And they have their own capabilities. They compliment each other but do not replace each other," Raha said at his press conference at the Aero India show in Bengaluru.

Making clear the IAF's own thoughts on open suggestions that 'other options' existed in the event of a deal collapse, Raha said, "No, we don’t have a Plan-B as of now. We are only working on Plan-A."

The IAF chief also stated, in what could be perceived as a sense of resignation over the turbulence negotiations have seen over the last 18 months, "Rafale has been selected as L1. It is a replacement. It is important that we have the MMRCA, I would not say Rafale. But we need to have it in the quickest possible time because the draw-down is true. Everyone is aware of the draw-down of combat squadrons of the IAF. Every air force faces this in its cycle of operations. It is not new or specific to IAF.
 

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Opinion: Dassault's First Rafale Export Order Underscores France’s Patience.

http://m.aviationweek.com/defense/opinion-dassaults-first-rafale-export-order-underscores-france-s-patience
 

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"France's Defense Procurement Agency Saved By Rafale Sale"
Feb 26, 2015 by Caroline Bruneau in Ares

Source:
http://aviationweek.com/blog/frances-defense-procurement-agency-saved-rafale-sale

The past year brought mixed results for French defense procurement agency DGA. Its chief, Laurent Collet-Billon, expects to announce a rise in exports for 2014 to €8 billion ($9 billion), a level not seen since 2009.

But the “fascinating year ahead” of the agency brings uncertainty.

Among DGA's top priorities is to set up so-called “special purpose entities” that will build defense equipment and then lease it back to the French military.

Collet-Billon confirmed the agency is “working on it,” with plans to stand up the new entities by July 1. Capitalized by the French state, these entities will either produce certain types of equipment or focus on individual but large-scale projects.

“A company for one A400M that costs about €100 million could make sense,” Collet-Billon told reporters in February during an annual news conference in Paris. “The product will then be leased to the armed forces.”

Collet-Billon said DGA will set limits on each lease and agree on a mechanism for exiting the agreements.

“As a state-to-state negotiation, it should work,” he said, adding that the French government will own 100% of the leasing companies, at least initially, and that the return on investment is expected to be around 1%.

DGA is counting on these special purpose companies to help the defense ministry fill a €2.2 billion hole in its 2015 defense budget, which was set at €31.4 billion. The recent and somewhat sudden sale of 24 Rafale aircraft and a FREMM frigate to Egypt eases pressure on the MoD, though it remains to be seen whether the money will be used to sustain military programs or – more likely – help pay for President Francois Hollande's costly, and arguably ego-boosting military operations in Africa and Iraq./quote]
 

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Grey Havoc said:
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/india-ends-mmrca-fighter-acquisition-415408/
 

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Grey Havoc said:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-boeing-fighter-exclusive-idUSKCN0VL2JK
Delays have prompted Qatar to halve its expected purchase of F-15s and pursue a separate deal with France's Dassault Aviation (AVMD.PA) for 24 Rafale fighter jets, according to sources familiar with the matter.
 

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France Imposes New Conditions on Rafale Deal With India

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/international/2016/07/06/rafale-jet-france-india/86752998/
 

Deltafan

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After the contract today with India for 36 Rafale

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/india-signs-36-unit-rafale-contract-429646/

There are 264 Rafale ordered :

-180 for France (maybe 225 at the end, if there is enough money in the french government.... At the beginning 320 were foreseen. Still 286 before the arrival of François Hollande as President in 2012...); 132 for French Air Force and 48 for French Navy.
-24 for Egypt
-24 for Qatar (+ 12 optional)
-36 for India

There are still some prospects :
-India, but with a contract under different conditions ("Make in India" ?)
-United Arab Emirates (prospect even longer as the MMRCA... Yes, it's possible)
-Malaysia,
-Canada,
-Belgium,
-Poland,
-Finland

Wait and see...
 

Grey Havoc

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https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/dassault-bullish-on-rafales-long-term-prospects-434951/
 

Deltafan

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Thanks Grey Havoc.

We can consider that the prospects are now:

-France (maybe 45 more for the French Air Force),
-India (new planes),
-United Arab Emirates,
-Switzerland,
-Finland,
-Malaysia,
-Belgium,
-Poland,
-Canada

Wait and see again...
 

Michel Van

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On Belgium it's again complex

Rafale would be interesting for Role the Belgium Air Force do International.

But Dassault got in Belgium a very infamous reputation for Corruption.
Since it was revealed that Belgium Socialist party took allot bribery
For Military contract like F-16, Mirage III and Agusta Helicopter and Bombardier jeeps etc.
In moment Belgium Socialist parties show striking interest for Lockheed-Martin F-35.

Official the Belgium national Government look for a "Next generation" jet fighter
 

GTX

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Some comments in red

Deltafan said:
Thanks Grey Havoc.

We can consider that the prospects are now:

-France (maybe 45 more for the French Air Force),
-India (new planes),
-United Arab Emirates,
-Switzerland,
-Finland,
-Malaysia, - I doubt this one for the foreseeable future. The RMAF budget has been severely curtailed and indeed they are currently looking at acquiring ex-Kuwaiti F/A-18s
-Belgium,
-Poland, - long term maybe given they only relatively recently received F-16s
-Canada - Again, I doubt this since they will most likely still get F-35s. If they don't do that, the solution is more likely to be more Super Hornets.

Wait and see again...
 

kaiserd

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GTX said:
Some comments in red

Deltafan said:
Thanks Grey Havoc.

We can consider that the prospects are now:

-France (maybe 45 more for the French Air Force),
-India (new planes),
-United Arab Emirates,
-Switzerland,
-Finland,
-Malaysia, - I doubt this one for the foreseeable future. The RMAF budget has been severely curtailed and indeed they are currently looking at acquiring ex-Kuwaiti F/A-18s
-Belgium,
-Poland, - long term maybe given they only relatively recently received F-16s
-Canada - Again, I doubt this since they will most likely still get F-35s. If they don't do that, the solution is more likely to be more Super Hornets.

Wait and see again...
Would just add that Poland will need replacements for their MIG-29s and few remaining Fitters a lot sooner as a complement to their F-16s rather than as a replacement for their relatively young F-16 fleet.
However like many countries they have a large limited budget they will look to put that off as long as possible (which may count against another batch of F-16s).
In any case Poland looks unpromising for the Rafale; likely the ambition is the F-35 if the defence budget will stretch that far.
 

Flyaway

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kaiserd said:
GTX said:
Some comments in red

Deltafan said:
Thanks Grey Havoc.

We can consider that the prospects are now:

-France (maybe 45 more for the French Air Force),
-India (new planes),
-United Arab Emirates,
-Switzerland,
-Finland,
-Malaysia, - I doubt this one for the foreseeable future. The RMAF budget has been severely curtailed and indeed they are currently looking at acquiring ex-Kuwaiti F/A-18s
-Belgium,
-Poland, - long term maybe given they only relatively recently received F-16s
-Canada - Again, I doubt this since they will most likely still get F-35s. If they don't do that, the solution is more likely to be more Super Hornets.

Wait and see again...
Would just add that Poland will need replacements for their MIG-29s and few remaining Fitters a lot sooner as a complement to their F-16s rather than as a replacement for their relatively young F-16 fleet.
However like many countries they have a large limited budget they will look to put that off as long as possible (which may count against another batch of F-16s).
In any case Poland looks unpromising for the Rafale; likely the ambition is the F-35 if the defence budget will stretch that far.
Especially with them being in the frontline so to speak and looking to acquire the greatest capability that their budget will allow.
 

Deltafan

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Michel Van said:
On Belgium it's again complex

Rafale would be interesting for Role the Belgium Air Force do International.

But Dassault got in Belgium a very infamous reputation for Corruption.
Since it was revealed that Belgium Socialist party took allot bribery
For Military contract like F-16, Mirage III and Agusta Helicopter and Bombardier jeeps etc.
In moment Belgium Socialist parties show striking interest for Lockheed-Martin F-35.

Official the Belgium national Government look for a "Next generation" jet fighter
As far as I know for Belgium it was for the Dassault Carapace pod (in 1989, known in 1995. 10 millions french Francs for the Socialist Party of Belgium) not for the planes. Since this Dassault Company had never had other bribery scandal in the world. And I don't know another case of bribery for Dassault Aviation Company even if Serge Dassault himself is condemned for a case of electoral corruptions (he appealed the first judgement) in 2008, 2009 and 2010.
 

Michel Van

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Deltafan said:
Michel Van said:
On Belgium it's again complex

Rafale would be interesting for Role the Belgium Air Force do International.

But Dassault got in Belgium a very infamous reputation for Corruption.
Since it was revealed that Belgium Socialist party took allot bribery
For Military contract like F-16, Mirage III and Agusta Helicopter and Bombardier jeeps etc.
In moment Belgium Socialist parties show striking interest for Lockheed-Martin F-35.

Official the Belgium national Government look for a "Next generation" jet fighter
As far as I know for Belgium it was for the Dassault Carapace pod (in 1989, known in 1995. 10 millions french Francs for the Socialist Party of Belgium) not for the planes. Since this Dassault Company had never had other bribery scandal in the world. And I don't know another case of bribery for Dassault Aviation Company even if Serge Dassault himself is condemned for a case of electoral corruptions (he appealed the first judgement) in 2008, 2009 and 2010.
First case was for acquisition 106 Mirage 5 for belgium Air force in 1968
According the story Dassault pay a "small contribution" to Belgium Government to get the contract
likely acting prime minister Paul Vanden Boeynants, who was know for his fraud and tax evasion
millions on Belgium franc got Socialist "mafia" by controlling the license-building of the Mirage 5 by SABCA in Belgium.
SABCA was based in Charleroi, a bastion of Socialist party SP and there worker Union the FGTB.

source:
in 1999 during the corruption trails of SP leaders, reveal some details of several Dassault "small contributions" like Carapace

In Fact the surviving Walloon and Flemish Socialist party are again in major Corruption scandal
This time Socialist politician got extrem overpay for work, they never made at inter-communal companies...
 

Deltafan

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Michel Van said:
Deltafan said:
Michel Van said:
On Belgium it's again complex

Rafale would be interesting for Role the Belgium Air Force do International.

But Dassault got in Belgium a very infamous reputation for Corruption.
Since it was revealed that Belgium Socialist party took allot bribery
For Military contract like F-16, Mirage III and Agusta Helicopter and Bombardier jeeps etc.
In moment Belgium Socialist parties show striking interest for Lockheed-Martin F-35.

Official the Belgium national Government look for a "Next generation" jet fighter
As far as I know for Belgium it was for the Dassault Carapace pod (in 1989, known in 1995. 10 millions french Francs for the Socialist Party of Belgium) not for the planes. Since this Dassault Company had never had other bribery scandal in the world. And I don't know another case of bribery for Dassault Aviation Company even if Serge Dassault himself is condemned for a case of electoral corruptions (he appealed the first judgement) in 2008, 2009 and 2010.
First case was for acquisition 106 Mirage 5 for belgium Air force in 1968
According the story Dassault pay a "small contribution" to Belgium Government to get the contract
likely acting prime minister Paul Vanden Boeynants, who was know for his fraud and tax evasion
millions on Belgium franc got Socialist "mafia" by controlling the license-building of the Mirage 5 by SABCA in Belgium.
SABCA was based in Charleroi, a bastion of Socialist party SP and there worker Union the FGTB.

source:
in 1999 during the corruption trails of SP leaders, reveal some details of several Dassault "small contributions" like Carapace
It's new for me. There were proofs about these "small contributions" (Mirage 5) or not during the trial ? If yes how much were these "small contributions" (Mirage 5) ? Where is it possible to see the official results of the trial about the Mirage 5 case ?

1968 ? Maybe Netherlands, Japan and Italy (and Belgium ?) must not buy Lockheed F-35... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_bribery_scandals and nobody (even Belgium) must no more buy Eurofighter http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/6193703.stm http://www.reuters.com/article/us-austria-airbus-group-idUSKBN15V118 and maybe no more Gripen too https://www.thelocal.se/20090616/20110 ::)
 

GTX

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Speaking of Poland: https://sputniknews.com/amp/military/201703241051941863-polish-air-force-f35-f16/
 

Deltafan

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GTX said:
Speaking of Poland: https://sputniknews.com/amp/military/201703241051941863-polish-air-force-f35-f16/
Topic mistake ? ???
 

fightingirish

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Poland is also not interested in acquiring second-hand F-16s.
Link: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/poland-shoots-down-used-f-16ab-acquisition-435508/

Back to the topic Rafale. ;) B)

Rafale F4 standard launched
Paris, March 22nd 2017, French defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian announced that he had authorized the development of the Rafale F4 standard. The first Rafale F4 should be delivered in 2025 but some of the features of this new version will be available as early as 2023.

The key improvements would be the following:
  • Improved net-centric capabilities (New data links, satcom)
  • RBE-2 AESA upgrade
  • SPECTRA upgrade
  • OSF IRST (New IR channel for the OSF)
  • M88 engine upgrade (AB thrust > 8 T)
  • Mica NG missile integration
  • AASM missile upgrade
Le Drian also confirmed that a 5th production tranche should be ordered during the next LPM (Multi-year military procurement plan).

sources:
  • https://www.portail-aviation.com/
  • http://www.defensenews.com/
  • https://www.flightglobal.com/
  • http://www.air-cosmos.com/
  • http://www.defense.gouv.fr/
[...]
Source: http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2017/03/rafale-f4-standard-launched.html
 

hesham

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Hi,

with all respect to Poland,we have both (Egypt),but Rafale has a large capacity more than F-16.
 

Deltafan

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Thanks fightingirish (and Hesham ;)).

I'm astonished by
"M88 engine upgrade (AB thrust > 8 T)"
Not because it could not be possible, but because I did not see a proof that it is what the minister said :

Le standard F4 "prévoit également la prise en compte des évolutions attendues de la motorisation"
AFAIK, officially, nothing is said about these "évolutions" of the engine. I would like to know from where the author of the article in the link found "AB thrust > 8 T"
 

kaiserd

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hesham said:
Hi,

with all respect to Poland,we have both (Egypt),but Rafale has a large capacity more than F-16.
The Rafale is a fine aircraft and I'm sure it will serve Egypt very well.
Re: Poland its more a case of the F-16 already being in service and being cheaper than the Rafale (while also being very capable) while if they have more money to spend the Poles would almost certainly be able to get the F-35, which Egypt is not likely to be allowed to buy in the near future.
For political reasons Poland may also favour US fighters while for Egypt likely some of the motivation for the Rafale buy was to demonstrate less reliance on the US.
 

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After the order of 24 Rafale in 2015, Qatar buys 12 more Rafale, with the option of buying 36 more.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/french-president-arrives-qatar-amid-arab-boycott-doha-51636977
 

Deltafan

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About the "expensive Eurocanards" :

in Qatar :

Deal for the 36 Rafale (6.3 + 1.1 =) : 7.4 billions €

Deal for the 36 F-15 : 12 billions €

https://www.defensenews.com/global/mideast-africa/2017/12/07/qatar-moves-to-buy-more-rafale-jets-order-infantry-fighting-vehicles/

http://www.janes.com/article/71443/qatar-agrees-purchase-of-f-15qa-fighters-from-us
 
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