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Dassault Rafale NEWS ONLY (TEMPORARY)

uk 75

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France pays a high price for going it alone but so too does Europe including the UK.
A fully European Tornado or Typhoon involving Dassault could have built a company able to challenge Boeing or Lockheed.. As it is, France may one day order F35s just as it has C130s.
 

NUSNA_Moebius

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France pays a high price for going it alone but so too does Europe including the UK.
A fully European Tornado or Typhoon involving Dassault could have built a company able to challenge Boeing or Lockheed.. As it is, France may one day order F35s just as it has C130s.

Maybe they need to learn to innovate and disrupt an industry screaming for a change in the way things have been done. The T-7, assuming it's not acting as a loss leader product could be a real sign of change. It's too bad it's not Dassault making that innovation.
 

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France pays a high price for going it alone but so too does Europe including the UK.
A fully European Tornado or Typhoon involving Dassault could have built a company able to challenge Boeing or Lockheed.. As it is, France may one day order F35s just as it has C130s.
Sorry uk 75, it sounds a bit like a wishful thinking...
As for paying an high price, I don't how much more than others, but at least paying for something done at home thus keeping a domestic builder running.
 
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uk 75

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Galgot I agree that France is willing to pay the price to preserve its own industrial base and the related jobs.
My mention of the C130 buy (also the E3 and E2s) was merely to point out that some requirements have had to be met by US products, so even France has its limits. An F35 buy is not very likely but given the relative size of the builds between F35 and a Dassault equivalent it might yet happen.
 

galgot

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Galgot I agree that France is willing to pay the price to preserve its own industrial base and the related jobs.
My mention of the C130 buy (also the E3 and E2s) was merely to point out that some requirements have had to be met by US products, so even France has its limits. An F35 buy is not very likely but given the relative size of the builds between F35 and a Dassault equivalent it might yet happen.

Of course it has its limits. No one (except China to a certain mesure) can compete with the ginormous US defense budget that makes the wealth of LM/Boeing and give them the $$ to « innovate ».
If you compare the size of Dassault to LM, or the prod figures, indeed Dassault can be seen as a SMB, producing their planes at artisanal pace, but with quality , and selling some few .
Yet I can’t see of any political party prone to come to power in Fr any time soon that would let got Dassault and buy F-35s, it would be for them as much a « sacrilege » as to let go the nuke deterrent.
It would take a very Pro-US regime to take power in France for this to happen, something like a Gov ready for a "special relationship" if you see what I mean, which is very unlikely.

Why ? Because on a French scale, but like in the US, the Fr defense and nuke complex is so tied to powers in place, and is an extremely powerful lobby . Still making lot of money, of course on a French scale not comparable to the US, but still working.
They would rather keep upgrading and buying Rafales for the Adl’A up to 2060 than buy F-35s and let go Dassault.
Just like Adl’A was flying good old MIIIEs , when Gr or UK were equiped with top notch Phantoms of the days.
So by the time the Rafales are retired , I doubt it will be the F-35 that Fr will pick to replace it. Something else will have appeared by that time.
Could be a US thing indeed, if a European cooperation fails to deliver an alternative, and there again a Fr Gov and Dassault combine would fight tooth and nail to have conditions that makes Dassault survive .
Or could be a European solution.
But hey… Who am I to say what will be ? We live in a crazy world, so Fr buying F-35s, why not ? But very unlikely.
 
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uk 75

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Good points. I am reminded of Jean Reno's livening up of the rather dire 90s Godzilla film and his reaction to American coffee.
If looks counted, Rafale beats F35 every time.
 

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Flyaway

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Good points. I am reminded of Jean Reno's livening up of the rather dire 90s Godzilla film and his reaction to American coffee.
If looks counted, Rafale beats F35 every time.
As I am sure you already know looks don’t count for anything, and form follows function & the F-35 is a fifth generation stealth aircraft with all that entails, the Rafale isn’t either of these things.
 

uk 75

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Good points. I am reminded of Jean Reno's livening up of the rather dire 90s Godzilla film and his reaction to American coffee.
If looks counted, Rafale beats F35 every time.
As I am sure you already know looks don’t count for anything, and form follows function & the F-35 is a fifth generation stealth aircraft with all that entails, the Rafale isn’t either of these things.
Heart versus Head
 

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When it comes to combat equipment, head must be more prevalent than heart. My car was never the prime example of efficient dynamics in automotive technology. What it has is style over substance and as a limited use civilian vehicle there are personal reasons for choosing it rather than another vehicle, I have kept her since 1988 after all so she has something going for her. Essentially I can 'feel' the road and every input is tactile perfection. IMHO. Were I going to war would I prefer a Spitfire or a current Typhoon etc? Well I like living so it would never be the Spitfire.
 
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uk 75

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Not my area of knowledge but the F35 comes in for a fair amount of stick on this site whereas Rafale is a well established weapon with its main customer-France.
Also I was the one suggesting above that France might end up buying F35s.
 

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Used Rafale price as sold to Greece seems to have been valued at 400M€ for 12 airframe.... That's half what Romania was ready to pay for a similar number of much older and used ex Israelis upgraded F-16I!!!

Among the pandemic, The great aircraft bazaar is still open for business...

 
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Deltafan

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Good deal.

The possibility for France to supply 12 new planes to its Air Force and to start filling the delivery hole between 2024 and 2027. And the possibility for a political and military ally to obtain relatively quickly (as it wishes) new competitive fighter jets against its potential adversary (and a today's, at least political, adersary of France).
 

TomcatViP

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That's all but a good deal. Don't be so delusional.
400M€ divided by 12 airplane makes less than 40M$ per unit for perfectly new airframe that the French taxpayers paid 3 time that plus the cost of upgrades.

400M€ is also roughly the cost of 3 airframe as sold to India. Greeks got 4 time more.
 
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H_K

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@TomcatViP As usual on this topic you are being critical without getting your facts straight.

1) The cost to the French taxpayer is at most €70M for a new build (without sales tax), far from the €100M+ you’re implying.

2) If these are older airframes (say from 2006) then they will have 3,500+ hours on them.

3) Selling them at half price is a perfectly fine way to lock in a customer. The small upfront discount is a classic sales tactic which will be made up several times over with the weapons, training, support and spares packages, which won’t be discounted.
 
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TomcatViP

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Speaking about as usual, you still like depicting other as idiots.
70M€ has no ground. It's a number often put forward to picture a favorable Rafale cost. It's even a cost without taxes, what won't apply here for your calculations (if you ever did any).
The Rafale upgrades are also costly, mostly because the number of airframe impacted is fairly low and because the plane came out as very basic initially.

Regarding the flight hours, the only solid reference we have is Greek statements (Mod) characterizing those airframe as having a fairly low nbr of flight hours.

So once again you draw nbr here and there to paint a picture out of thin air copiously insulting people on the way (the reader)

Romania bought 12 25 years old F-16 for twice that price and that is a proper number.

And regarding that:
Selling them at half price is a perfectly fine way to lock in a customer. The small upfront discount is a classic sales tactic which will be made up several times over with the weapons, training, support and spares packages, which won’t be discounted.
Do you realize your clever marketing tactics would mean that French couldn't sell more than 50 airframe before the AdlAE ceases to exist?
 
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H_K

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70M€ has no ground. It's a number often put forward to picture a favorable Rafale cost. It's even a cost without taxes, what won't apply here for your calculations (if you ever did any).
The Rafale upgrades are also costly, mostly because the number of airframe impacted is fairly low and because the plane came out as very basic initially.
The €70M is based on the 2014 flyaway price adjusted for inflation. It’s as good as anyone’s guess.

Another way to think of this is that from 2006-2018 the French spent €15B to receive 126 Rafale F2/F3s (this from French budget docs). That’s €120M each with VAT, or more relevantly €100M without VAT. This number includes EVERYTHING: development of F3 and F3R, pylons, fuel tanks, spares, upgrades, simulators etc. It’s as close as you’ll get to the true all-in unit price, equipped, for a Rafale.

(The only thing not included is the initial development sunk cost in the 1990s and the early deliveries before 2006)

So now the Greeks are paying €1.7B for 18 aircraft, of which 12 have at least 1,500hrs (if they are the last ones delivered in ~2016), possibly more hours if they are older airframes. So they’re getting the equivalent of ~15 new airframes for €110M each. They will have to spend at least as much on spares, weapons etc in the future, plus who knows what isn’t included (like training etc). That’s hardly a steal.
 
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TomcatViP

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First they are F3R. So please continue further down with the balance sheet. Secondly, the number of hours on the airframe can only be evaluated around what has been said in the press. To say it quickly, I imagine that you haven't factored availability rate in your gross evaluation of the number of hours (50%).

Anyway, an aircraft that hasn't seen yet its first SLEP can't be evaluated less than one 25 years old that had already.

This deal is like winning the double burger promo at your local restaurant and getting the boss's BMW with it.
 
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Deltafan

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That's all but a good deal. Don't be so delusional.
400M€ divided by 12 airplane makes less than 40M$ per unit for perfectly new airframe that the French taxpayers paid 3 time that plus the cost of upgrades.

400M€ is also roughly the cost of 3 airframe as sold to India. Greeks got 4 time more.
You know, exactly like me, that this Greek situation is not only economical in the short term, but military and political too (and economical in the long term).

And as said before, it gives the possibility for France to supply 12 new planes to its Air Force and to start filling the delivery hole between 2024 and 2027.

You can repeat your usual criticism against France/Rafale as long as you want. I will not change my mind about your partial arguments (and I am certainly not the only one here).

As usual, I let the readers judge.
 
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TomcatViP

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Where do I criticize France?! Stop drapping you with outfits that does not belong to you. We are putting doubt on the seriousness of a deal granted by some here as a geniously machiavellian move what it is not, and underpinnings this unheard serie of odd similar give away deals since this administration took office (see the Great aircraft bazaar thread).

Loosing ~1.8B€ of assets to cash 0.4B€ will never be called a sane business practice or a strategic coup.

Think at Dassault Rafale customers that get to see their investments depreciated so abruptly.
 
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H_K

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@TomcatViP As you know F3R is mostly a software upgrade so the retrofit cost is minimal. The main F3R expense is development (~€1B) which is included in the €15B (incl. VAT) I quoted you for 126 aircraft from 2006-18.

So my €100M unit price (equipped) is an accurate reflection of the balance sheet from a French perspective for its F3R fleet. This includes all the development and retrofits over the years from F2.2 to F3R standards: A2G and Meteor weapons integration, AESA, OSF-IT, DDM-NG, Damocles, Reco-NG, Spectra enhancements, M88-2E4 engines, weapons pylons, drop tanks, test benches, spares, simulator upgrades etc. EVERYTHING*

As for flying hours, it’s well known that the average aircraft flies 250-300 hours/year irrespective of availability. In 2018 the fleet leaders had 3,300hrs+, which confirms that. So the newest single seaters delivered in 2015 should have ~1,500 hours on them.

I don’t know why you keep focusing on the €400M... the Greeks are spending 1.7B for ~15 new build equivalents, excluding weapons. That’s the number that matters, ie. the full course price, not the small discount they got on the appetizer portion.

*OK small print: I’m not including the early development cost for Rafale prototypes, F1 and F2 standards, which was significant but mostly 20+ years ago.
 
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TomcatViP

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If you don't see why nbr matters I can't help but feeling sorry for you.

Who's gona paid the difference from 0.4B€ and the 12 new Rafale to be ordered? With what budget increase? In what kind of country that can't already paid for basic military needs in the 21st century? That lacks airframe to sustain its operational tempo?
And where is the legal ground for that? 10% of an airforce is wiped out from inventory and everything is normal? Ppl should simply seat down and acclaim the genius that did that?!

The only cleverness I see here is that of the Greeks proving again their superiority against the oddity of the said-so French elite thinking.
 

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Who's gona paid the difference from 0.4B€ and the 12 new Rafale to be ordered?

So let’s see, the French Air Force is losing 10 F3Rs (new build equivalents) in exchange for €400M. It can buy 10 more capable F4s at €70M a pop (flyaway price, excl. VAT), so €700M total. It loses €300M from its balance sheet but wanted the more capable aircraft so that’s OK. This is much like the French Navy which was willing to spend €300M to upgrade its 10 F1s to F3s.

The French government and industry get the full benefit of €2B spent in France, with no offsets or tech. transfers like in many other deals. You can double or triple that money over the lifetime of the aircraft.

Long-term the French Air Force gets the benefit of lower costs from a larger user base for Dassault to spread its fixed costs and development dollars.
 

TomcatViP

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You are incorrigible picking any number that fits. .. When has 12 Rafale been sold 70M€ a pop? Never. And let's pray Qataris as other gov never heard about those official nbr (36 Rafale bought by Qatar were for roughly 7B$).

The F4 upgrade contract alone worth 2.3B$ and from my mem doesn't involves any new built airframe. 28 airframe are to be impacted. I guess that with those 0.4B€ France can now finance on top of that new recyclable cockpit straw, couturier designed ladder hand rails, Pikachu themed flight bags and other things deemed essential... Isn't it?
 

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I’m using real numbers from French budget documents, not making them up. You’ve got nothing except the fact that other customers with deeper pockets paid more (of course they did! That’s how markets work).

Also, you’re not listening to what I’m saying: anyone who’s ever done cost accounting and complex contracts knows that there’s a big difference between fixed vs. variable costs, and upfront expenses vs lifetime value. It is perfectly OK to sell a product at 0 marginal upfront profit (€70M in the case of 1 new Rafale), or even as a loss-leader in order to lock in $$$ of lifetime value. It is also perfectly normal to give one “strategic” customer a hefty discount while giving another customer who has higher willingness to pay and few alternatives no discount at all. Companies like Airbus and Boeing do it all the time.

What matters is the total $ received over time... as long as a) the total lifetime value helps cover both your marginal costs and b) the contribution margin is sufficient to help cover your fixed costs, then you’ve got a going enterprise. Only the short-sighted would look only at short-term cash flow.

The above applies to Dassault but also to the French fighter enterprise as a whole, ie. the French government and the Armée de l’Air.
 

TomcatViP

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Either you think you're some sort of grand Houdinni or take this website for a housewives forum (to speak mysoginist), in either case I will leave you there since there is no point pursuing this conversation.
 
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Deltafan

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Where do I criticize France?! Stop drapping you with outfits that does not belong to you.
Sorry, I stop nothing, AFAIK you are not webmaster or moderator.

My mind belong to me even if this mind don't please you.


We are putting doubt on the seriousness of a deal granted by some here as a geniously machiavellian move what it is not, and underpinnings this unheard serie of odd similar give away deals since this administration took office (see the Great aircraft bazaar thread).
Loosing ~1.8B€ of assets to cash 0.4B€ will never be called a sane business practice or a strategic coup.

Think at Dassault Rafale customers that get to see their investments depreciated so abruptly.
And it's not criticism or France ? Who speaks of "seriousness" ?

On your "Great aircraft bazaar" thread there is already all the answers by your opponents.

You don't want to see the political and military context. It's your right. As it is the right of your interlocutors to take them into account.

And about "seriousness" "machiavellian" and "unheard" :
Question to forumers: Does anyone have the list of American fighter jets provided for free (then for political and military reasons) to foreign countries since 1945 ?
 

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I’ve read elsewhere that it seems that the eight freebies that are coming from existing French stocks are the very same Rafale's that attacked and damaged Turkish air defence systems deployed in Libya earlier in the year.
 

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I’ve read elsewhere that it seems that the eight freebies that are coming from existing French stocks are the very same Rafale's that attacked and damaged Turkish air defence systems deployed in Libya earlier in the year.
Hi,

What is (are) their source(s) ?

AFAIK there is no proof that (French or Egyptian) Rafale attacked and damaged Turkish air defence systems deployed in Libya earlier this year.

The last sources that I red (in French), three months ago, said that it was an attack by Emirates Mirage 2000-9, and that it was GNA's (Libyan government supported by Turkey in Libya) opinion too :

Abdel-Malik Al-Medeni, spokesperson for Operation Volcano of Anger led by GNA units said the strikes were allegedly carried out by Mirage 2000-9 deployed by the United Arab Emirates (UAE) in Sidi al -Barani, Egypt. The UAE did not comment.

“Abu Dhabi is doing some things in Libya and Syria. All of this is being recorded. The accounts will be done on time, ”said Hulusi Akar, the Turkish Defense Minister, in an interview with Al Jazeera. “You have to ask Abu Dhabi where this hostility comes from, these bad intentions, this jealousy,” he added.

The Emirates Mirage 2000-9 made alreaday attacks in Libya in August 2014.
 

Flyaway

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I’ve read elsewhere that it seems that the eight freebies that are coming from existing French stocks are the very same Rafale's that attacked and damaged Turkish air defence systems deployed in Libya earlier in the year.
Hi,

What is (are) their source(s) ?

AFAIK there is no proof that (French or Egyptian) Rafale attacked and damaged Turkish air defence systems deployed in Libya earlier this year.

The last sources that I red (in French), three months ago, said that it was an attack by Emirates Mirage 2000-9, and that it was GNA's (Libyan government supported by Turkey in Libya) opinion too :

Abdel-Malik Al-Medeni, spokesperson for Operation Volcano of Anger led by GNA units said the strikes were allegedly carried out by Mirage 2000-9 deployed by the United Arab Emirates (UAE) in Sidi al -Barani, Egypt. The UAE did not comment.

“Abu Dhabi is doing some things in Libya and Syria. All of this is being recorded. The accounts will be done on time, ”said Hulusi Akar, the Turkish Defense Minister, in an interview with Al Jazeera. “You have to ask Abu Dhabi where this hostility comes from, these bad intentions, this jealousy,” he added.

The Emirates Mirage 2000-9 made alreaday attacks in Libya in August 2014.
I’ve asked and they believe it was in an article a couple of months ago in possibly Defence News.
 

Deltafan

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I’ve asked and they believe it was in an article a couple of months ago in possibly Defence News.
I only found three articles on Defense News on the subject and nothing about these "eight freebies that are coming from existing French stocks are the very same Rafale's that attacked and damaged Turkish air defence systems deployed in Libya earlier in the year."


In this other one :


is said :

Analyst Harchaoui alleged that Emirati Mirage 2000-9 aircraft flying out of an Egyptian base had been supporting Haftar periodically since June 2019.
“Misrata airbase, which has hosted Turkish TB2 drones, was bombed multiple times last year by Emirati drones and jets until the Turks brought in Korkut and MIM-23 Hawk air defense systems. The raids over Misrata stopped in 2020 — probably because the UAE did not want to see a captured pilot show up tortured on Facebook,” he said. On July 4, fighter jets attacked Al-Watiya air base, just after Turkey had brought in its MIM-23 Hawk air defense missiles there. “Sonic booms heard over Sebha, in southwest Libya, suggest the aircraft took off from Egypt, then flew to Libya via the Sahara to avoid being spotted by Turkish frigates off the Libyan coast,” Harchaoui said. “Could it have been Egyptian Rafales? They are good but don’t have enough experience for an ultra-precise mission like this. French pilots flying Egyptian Rafales is unlikely in case one was captured, leaving the UAE Mirages as most likely.” Added Barrie: “Of all the Gulf states, the UAE is the most capable of this kind of mission — they have the combat experience and could do this.


I cannot do better for the moment.
 

Deltafan

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OK, I found it :


What is being speculated is that the deal will be moving ahead in two parts, with one being the purchase of 10 new Rafales, while the second being that the remaining jets will be parted as a gift to Athens. Reportedly, the eight Rafales were the jets that bombed the Turkish facilities at the al-Watiya airbase in Libya.

Well, as known, the used Rafale for Greece are 12, not 8, and it would be interesting to know from where ("reportedly") Eurasiantimes knew that "they bombed the Turkish facilities at the al-Watiya airbase in Libya".

Or perhaps they mean that the 8/12 used French Rafale for Greece are from the same model as those which "bombed" al-Watiya, but there is still the lack of proof that any Rafale (French or Egyptian) bombed al-Watiya...
 

TomcatViP

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Also
Three more Rafale fighter aircrafts will arrive at the Jamnagar airbase in Gujarat from France on Wednesday, 4 November, as the air force prepares to form its first Rafale squadron at Ambala, said Hindustan Times (HT), citing officials familiar with the developments.
 

TomcatViP

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Two remarks on the above:
- flight should be made of 4 aircraft, meaning that one aborted or one crew was not safe regarding Covid-19. If this is true, we should hear a confirmation from French MoD
- has it been confirmed when those three took off from Dassault plant in Merignac?
 

TomcatViP

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Also, the original report from the alleged French raid on Turkish Sam's in Lybia was posted here by me the week of the attack. It should be in this thread or in a thread on the Ex(!)-Lybian conflict
 

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Two remarks on the above:
- flight should be made of 4 aircraft,

This isn't a given. The initial delivery flight was five aircraft, not four, and the statement says they anticipate delivery of 3 or 4 aircraft per month, so this may well be all that were ready to deliver this month.
 

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I do agree. I am waiting for the official report, though.
 
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Deltafan

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Also, the group targeted in Mali was the one that lately had benefitted from a large prisoner swap (~200) against hostages in the frame of their negociations with the Malian government.
Why this article in the topic of the Rafale ? As said in the article, the raid was made by Mirage 2000 (D).
 

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