Curtiss Giant Triplane Flying Boat

[hesham]

Hi,


here is a giant triplane flying boat,intended by Curtiss in 1915,it was mentioned
in Flightglobal magazine,and L'Aerophile 1/1916.


http://www.dieselpunks.org/profiles/blogs/knights-of-the-air-curtiss-triplanes

 

[Stargazer]

Probably an artist's concept of what it might look and not an actual Curtiss configuration.


The real Curtiss triplane flying boat was the so-called Wanamaker Triplane which was used by the Royal Naval Air Service. The design was refined by Lt. Porte as the Felixstowe F.1 Fury.

 

[hesham]

We can say,


it was a Curtiss design,but just a sketch from him,not real aircraft.

 

[Stargazer]

it was a Curtiss design,but just a sketch from him,not real aircraft.

Hadn't actually checked your link, but it does say exactly the same thing I wrote above:

Here is an artist's impression of the Curtiss Triplane flying boat, published in the Flight magazine (UK) in 1916.

So not a Curtiss illustration, only a vision from a Flight artist before the real aircraft was built.

The real thing was even more impressive. In 1915, the American businessman Rodman Wanamaker commissioned Curtiss to build a new, larger flying boat, which became known as the Wanamaker Triplane, or Curtiss Model T in Curtiss's then-current designation scheme (It was later retroactively re-designated Model 3 when Curtiss changed its designation system).

This confirms that the Flight artist was trying to depict the Wanamaker Triplane before the actual configuration was made public.

 

[hesham]

Yes I check,


and I said,it was not real aircraft by Curtiss,but was just imagination from the authors.

 

[tartle]

My recent researches suggest that the Curtiss Triplane was in fact real- ordered by the British Admiralty before Feb 15 1916; 20 were ordered but only one delivered. Shipped without the 4 Curtiss 'V4' engines (not ready) and propellers it may have become the basis of Porte's 'Baby' flying boat; It would make sense if the original Curtiss Triplane was shipped over as it was a 3-engine configuration. Porte realising that the short forebody of the hull was giving the same wallowing as the H-4. As Porte was cutting and trying different sponson configurations etc on the H-4 hulls he began to understand what made a seaworthy hull and no doubt quickly incorporated these into the Curtiss T ... He was also looking at a better hull for the H-4 and took the work on T and rehulled H's and made a larger biplane out of the pieces available. I think the pictures we see of the Baby with a Scout C mounted above the top wing ... a composite Zeppelin chaser, is in fact the Curtiss T hull with three engines as delivered early 1916... Would Porte have had the materiel to do all the H-4 mods leading to the Felixstowe F2 as well as creating an all new design for the 'Baby' at this stage in the War? I am not sure why the name Wanamaker gets attached to triplane configurations other than to confuse the enemy. The original Scientific American the Flight sketch interprets is not a civil but a military configuration. Sorry for stream of consciousness. If I find more i will report back....
Re-reading the 'Flyboys over Hampton Roads' book really confirms that this is really an Admiralty project driven by the C-in-C Grand Fleet's desire for his reconnaissance aircraft to have more range and endurance.

Note: the changes as I did not see I had deleted part of sentence on the F2 origins.

 

[hesham]

Great info Tartle,many thanks.

 

[Stargazer]

My recent researches suggest that the Curtiss Triplane was in fact real- ordered by the British Admiralty before Feb 15 1916; 20 were ordered but only one delivered. Shipped without the 4 Curtiss 'V4' engines (not ready) and propellers it may have become the basis of Porte's 'Baby' flying boat; It would make sense if the original Curtiss Triplane was shipped over as it was a 3-engine configuration. Porte realising that the short forebody of the hull was giving the same wallowing as the H-4. As Porte was cutting and trying different sponson configurations etc on the H-4 hulls he began to understand what made a seaworthy hull and no doubt quickly incorporated these into the Curtiss T ... He was also looking at a better hull for the H-4 and took the work on T and rehulled H's and made a larger biplane out of the pieces available. I think the pictures we see of the Baby with a Scout C mounted above the top wing ... a composite Zeppelin chaser, is in fact the Curtiss T hull with three engines as delivered early 1916... Would Porte have had the materiel to do all the H-4 mods leading to the Felixstowe F2 as well as creating an all new design for the 'Baby' at this stage in the War? I am not sure why the name Wanamaker gets attached to triplane configurations other than to confuse the enemy. The original Scientific American the Flight sketch interprets is not a civil but a military configuration. Sorry for stream of consciousness. If I find more i will report back....
Re-reading the 'Flyboys over Hampton Roads' book really confirms that this is really an Admiralty project driven by the C-in-C Grand Fleet's desire for his reconnaissance aircraft to have more range and endurance.

Note: the changes as I did not see I had deleted part of sentence on the F2 origins.

Very interesting topic but reading you is a little difficult I must say.


The so-called "Wanamaker Triplane" was the largest seaplane in the world when it was constructed, and also the first 4-engine US plane. Rodney Wanamaker was the president of a big store franchise in the U.S. and he was the official sponsor for the Model H "America" that was to attempt the Atlantic crossing in 1914. The presence of his name associated to the triplane is an indication of his also sponsoring the project. An indication of his sharp sense for publicity? Probably so, but the man was also a strong advocate for peace. He had hoped the "America" would serve as a goodwill message to the world, and now that the world was at war, maybe he sensed that helping Curtiss do something for the war effort was a good thing to bring peace back?

Anyway, twenty Triplanes were initially ordered by the British Admiralty as patrol bombers in 1916, but only one was built (in Buffalo) and delivered to England, the other 19 being cancelled. It was powered by four 240 hp Renault engines.

It is a known fact that Porte developed the F.1 Fury because the hull of the Model T triplane was found unsatisfactory.
For the same reason, the F.5 was developed as an improvement of the H.16, which returned to the U.S. in the form of the F-5L.

 

[memaerobilia]

Years ago, When The Seattle Museum Of Flight acquired my ten crates of Original Wright company and Curtiss Company archives, they recorded a very detailed list (down to describing each PAGE, photo, and document!) There was one brown folder with the original series of correspondence/letters between Rodman Wanamaker and Glenn Curtiss, JUST on the subject of the TransOceanic planes. The specifications changed drastically, during those discussions, as they eveolved. I believe one can obtain copies or info on this series of information, from the Museum's Library Services. Their detailed listing,with dates, subjects and names and content, are listed and recorded, and easily read, on the Internet, by the Museum, so every single page,may be researched, Their library and archives are so vast, that I forget exactly which page or section they are in. But start in the Library archives, and find the itemization and records of The Wright Company archives. or the Curtiss company archives. MANY pages of Index to go through. But fascinating and well worth it. Readable right at home, on your computer.
(NOT the entire document, -due to vast quantity-but good description of each one)

 

[tartle]

Skyblazer:
I agree... I did say it was a stream of consciousness. Just some points to discuss..prompted by your much clearer response:
The F.1 was a response to the need for more range and reliability and incorporated the lessons learned by experiments with the H-4 hull. Porte put a completely new hull on boat s/n 3580 which instead of taking boat construction conventions into an aircraft took aircraft construction techniques into a flying boat; the result was a hull that could withstand repeated landings without weakening and eventually failing at the step as the H-4 regularly did. It was a while before feedback to the USA precipitated a similar change at Curtiss, i.e. on the H-16 there was a more robust hull. the F5L was in fact a Felixstowe design with Porte hull that was only modified to help it being made by American production techniques. Too late to see service in the war the F5 was used by Short to produce a metal hull version (1926), which led to the Singapore, etc.
And thanks for the tip on files... I love files!

 

[Stargazer]

Years ago, When The Seattle Museum Of Flight acquired my ten crates of Original Wright company and Curtiss Company archives, they recorded a very detailed list (down to describing each PAGE, photo, and document!) There was one brown folder with the original series of correspondence/letters between Rodman Wanamaker and Glenn Curtiss, JUST on the subject of the TransOceanic planes. The specifications changed drastically, during those discussions, as they eveolved. I believe one can obtain copies or info on this series of information, from the Museum's Library Services. Their detailed listing,with dates, subjects and names and content, are listed and recorded, and easily read, on the Internet, by the Museum, so every single page,may be researched, Their library and archives are so vast, that I forget exactly which page or section they are in. But start in the Library archives, and find the itemization and records of The Wright Company archives. or the Curtiss company archives. MANY pages of Index to go through. But fascinating and well worth it. Readable right at home, on your computer.
(NOT the entire document, -due to vast quantity-but good description of each one)

It is great news that all your Wright and Curtiss archives ended up in a place where they will be protected and valued for generations to come! I wish the detailed list you're talking about was accessible, it would be a good starting point. They probably put something much more basic online, if anything. I'll have a look.

 

[memaerobilia]

They have done a simply Amazing job of recording the finders pages to all this original archival information. I coped their finder's pages from their Internet web-page, and JUST the index listing, comprises 181 pages! Here is JUST a small, partial sample of the information on the documents for the Wanamaker and trans-Oceanic Curtiss planes, and the evolution of the their design (which changed constantly, in major modifications, during their discussions on building these planes and its design)

?? I copied this link at the time of downloading ten files with 181 pages from the Seatlle MOF Library/ archival web pages.?? But it does not seem to work for me, now, having just tried:

http://www.museumofflight.org/files/image_finding_aids/Wright-Papers.html

Sample which is only PARTIAL to what is on the internet...available at your home computer..There is a LOT more, JUST on this one topic. The archives cover many years of aircraft designs..patents, proposals etc etc The Finder pages also list what box the items are in, for fast library referencing, and I believe they are will to help researchers..

[font=]Folder #5 Small brown envelope (marked 11): “Correspondence & agreements between Curtiss and the Rod Wanamaker/Lt. Porte Trans-Oceanic Co. Inc. Sept 14, 1914-Sept 2, 1915, March 17, 1917. This envelope contains:[/font]​

[font=]A legal size envelope marked “Correspondence & Agreements between Curtiss – Rod Wanamaker – Lt. Port – Trans Oceanic Co Inc.” The envelope has the printed return address “Curtiss Aeroplane Division, Curtiss-Wright Corporation, Buffalo, N. Y.” and is marked in pencil “#70.” The envelope contains the following:[/font]​

[font=]--September 11, 1914: Unsigned letter (2 pages) from. L.J. Seely to Glenn Curtiss which begins “Things today have been bewilderingly fast, but all told do not amount to much when boiled down.” Seely comments on the Wright injunction against Curtiss and the attitude of Orville Wright, the sale of the America flying boat, and British interest in buying Curtiss machines. Attached is an unsigned letter (1 page) from Seely to Harry (Woodhouse) enclosing a copy of the letter to Curtiss and mentioning a “tentative Wanamaker proposition.”[/font]​

[font=]--n.d. (1915?): One typed and one carbon copy of “Specifications for America 1915.” The documents (1 page each) list 12 specifications for the airplane and its delivery including being able to remain in the air for “36 consecutive hours” and ready for shipment to Newfoundland on May 1, 1915.[/font]​

[font=]--March 26, 1915: copy of a letter (2 pages) from Glenn Curtiss to Commander J.C. Porte, R. N. Air Station, Hendon, England in which Curtiss replies to ten suggestions from Porte for construction of the America. Curtiss states that “war orders have prevented our actually starting construction on anew Trans-Atlantic.”[/font]​

[font=]--September 11, 1915: Carbon copy of a letter from the Curtiss Aeroplane Co. to Will Gash, The Wanamaker Stores, returning the original contract for the Transatlantic Flyer signed by G.H. Curtiss. The letter notes that the contract has been changed on page four from 6,000 pounds to 5,000 as per a telephone agreement made on September 10,1915. The copy is signed by H. Sayer Wheeler for Curtiss.[/font]​

[font=]--September 13, 1915: Original signed letter ( 1 page) from Will Gash, an official of the Wanamaker Company (on company letter head) to Glenn Curtiss stating that he has received the contract for the Transatlantic Flyer and enclosing a check for $8500 towards the first payment of $15,000. Attached to the letter is an unsigned carbon copy of a letter (1 page) from G. R. Hall, the Secretary and Treasurer of the Curtiss Aeroplane Company, to Gash acknowledging receipt of the $8,500 check as payment due on contract dated September 2, 1915.[/font]​

[font=]--September 15, 1915: A typed note (1 page) on the back of a Curtiss Aeroplane Order form from H. Sayer Wheeler to Hall stating “Both Mr. Curtiss and Mr. Genung have copies of this contract.” The note is signed in pencil by Wheeler.[/font]​

[font=]--May 20, 1916: Original signed letter (1 page, marked DOCUMENT FILE No. X-108 and orange 62) from Will Gash, Vice President of America Trans-Oceanic Company (on company letter head) to H.C. Genung, Curtiss Aeroplane Company confirming an order for a flying boat with OXX-2 motor. The total price is stated as $15,250. Attached to the letter is a hand written note (1 page) in pencil on “Ryan & Cable,Inc.” stationary to G. R. Hall from H.C. Genung dated May 22 stating “attached please find official contract from America Trans-Oceanic Co.” Also attached is an original signed letter from Gash (on company letter head) to Genung dated May 23 enclosing a check for $2,860 as a deposit (1 page, marked DOCUMENT FILE No.X-1-8). Also attached is a carbon copy of a letter from the Curtiss Aeroplane Company to Gash dated May 24 acknowledging receipt of the $2,860 check as deposit for contract dated May 6, 1916. (1 page).[/font]​

[font=]--November 3, 1917: An unsigned carbon copy of a letter from Gash to the Curtiss Engineering Corporation releasing it from all claims in the contract of March 31, 1916. The release is contingent on a payment to the America Trans-Oceanic Company of $1,000 and a 20% discount if either the company or Rodman Wanamaker should order a flying boat “within two years after the close of the present war.” The document letter is marked “DOCUMENT FILE No. X-106” and a red “62.”[/font]​

[font=]--November 3, 1917: An unsigned carbon copy of a letter (1 page) from Gash to the Curtiss Aeroplane Company releasing it from all claims in the contract of September 2, 1915 and “certain correspondence constituting a contract for 20 flying boats.” The release is contingent on a payment to the America Trans-Oceanic Company of $15,000 and 25% of the amount received from the British Admiralty for the flying boats. The letter is marked “DOCUMENT FILE No. X-105-2.”[/font]​

 

[memaerobilia]

I've asked the curator for the current info on the index.

 

[Stargazer]

Splendid Joe! Thank you so much for retrieving that most precious document. It really is impressive!

 

[tartle]

Thanks Joe,
I had searched after your pointer without success... I note there is a notice saying archives etc were closed on 11/12 September. I wonder if that covered IT systems and they aren't properly restored?
We can wait to hear a reply!... but searching bounced me to another source of info that I am trying to digest .. will share once I have made a more coherent set of thought than last time!

 

[joncarrfarrelly]

MoF is in the midst of a major rejig of the website, so things links will probably be dead for awhile.

 

[hesham]

From Aerophile 1916.