Curiousity Regarding MiG-25 Top Speed

sferrin

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Wouldn't be able to run it down from behind but maybe in a head-on situation. Against the Blackbird that is. Forget the ICBM.
 

F-14D

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KJ_Lesnick said:
KingGeorge,

I have reason to doubt that as the MiG-25 and it's Vympel R-40/AA-6 Acrid missiles couldn't keep up with the closure rate of an SR-71, let alone a Ballistic-Missile...

It would seem the MiG-25 was designed for exactly what it was said to be designed for, to take out the A-12, and probably high speed bomber threats we had.


KJ Lesnick

sferrin said:
Wouldn't be able to run it down from behind but maybe in a head-on situation. Against the Blackbird that is. Forget the ICBM.

Having worked and talked with SR-71 crews, I can report they unanimously said that the MiG-25 was never a threat. In all cases where an "intercept" took place with the SR at speed, this was in a peacetime case with the SR flying at a known speed at a known altitude at a known time over a known, repeated, course with no deviations allowed (such as down a corridor two miles wide), with no use of the DEF. This generally also applied to all Western aircraft that reported having "intercepted" an SR-71. There were exercises run against F-14s, "shooting" AIM-54s, and with the exceptions of those involved, they did not know the results, which are still classified. Although they respected the MiG-31, possibly because of its AWG-9ski fire control and Phoenixovitch missiles, they also stated that in their encounters with them, they never were seriously threatened. They were cautious before the encounters occurred, but once in it they could see they were safe.

For positioning reason among others, an intercept against a supersonic target, let alone one at M3.2+ is really hard to do in the real world unless the interceptor has a significant speed advantage relative to the target aircraft. This no one had.

As for why the Soviets started the MiG-25, I suspect it had more to do with the B-70 than the A-12. Even for them, developing the Foxbat to defend against a few unarmed, very hard to catch aircraft that didn't overfly the mother country anyway would be an enormously expensive undertaking that would be of limited benefit relative to its costs even if it worked perfectly
 
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According to paul czysz one of the missions of so called Aurora type aircraft would have been to intercept pop up BM launches by submarines near U.S shores. Also According to him a special kind of missile could do that . but this would probably be some sort of boost phase thingy.


knocking out incoming BMs on re-entry when speeds are something like 4-7km/sec using a mach 3 interceptor ... hmm

One of the few conceivable situations where this could be done is by using a nuke tipped ASAT missile that is launched at maybe a flock of incoming warheads. probably ..
 

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or maybe firing a flock of nuclear AAMs against a missile . ıf Genie had a radius of 1000 feet would 4 of them cause a wall of "hot air" and electrons placed accurately enough to somehow knock out the explosive capability of the warhead , which than would have to be dug out of the hole it would make in the ground . A hole would beat a crater , ı guess.
 
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Compton electrons would damage the electronics more than anything else. How about a neutron flux generating warhead to pre-detonate enemy re-entry warheads.? ;D
 

KJ_Lesnick

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According to paul czysz one of the missions of so called Aurora type aircraft would have been to intercept pop up BM launches by submarines near U.S shores. Also According to him a special kind of missile could do that . but this would probably be some sort of boost phase thingy.

You mean the Naval Interdictor concept? Or do you mean the 1986 - ???? Aurora (The one Chris Gibson saw)


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Hey KJ,

By the naval interdictor, are you referring to the mach 6 vehicle that would intercept say a Kirov coming through the GIUK gap ?
If yes , then this is the same thing . only this time it would have been outfitted with a BPI type thingy ( possibly)
 
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BPI = Boost phase Intercept
for more take a look at this

http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/bpi.htm and

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/ncade-an-abm-amraam-03305/
 

KJ_Lesnick

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Oh, I know what that is (Boost-Phase Intercept)...

For some reason I just didn't connect BPI with Boost Phase Intercept...
 

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apart from ballistic missiles , ı don't think there is actually an hypersonic missile in service today .
 
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Oh you might find a Koala or two in the russian ORBAT :D. by the way what about some of the missiles of the S-400 complex?
 

sferrin

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Oh you might find a Koala or two in the russian ORBAT :D. by the way what about some of the missiles of the S-400 complex?

Koala was a test vehicle.
 
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didn't get the joke, huh? ::)

Anyway it didn't start off as a hypersonic test vehicle . Raduga NPO used the Koala design as a hypersonic test vehicle under the GELA designation. On the weapon front, a slightly redesigned Koala may have been considered for production.
 

sferrin

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didn't get the joke, huh? ::)

There's subtle and then there's being so subtle that nobody sees it. What was the joke?
 

KJ_Lesnick

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The AIM-47, the AIM-54, the AIM-7, the AIM-120, the AA-6 Acrid, and the AA-9 Amos are capable of flying in excess of Mach 5 right (at least at certain altitudes)

KJ Lesnick
 
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Hmm. yeah but these are essentially Mach 4 category devices. The falcon in any case did not make to service.
 

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ı for one long thought Sparrow was a Mach2 missile that made '4 only when fired from aircraft flying at their nearly maximum speed .
 

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avatar said:
Hmm. yeah but these are essentially Mach 4 category devices. The falcon in any case did not make to service.


AIM-54 was M3.5 plus launch speed, to a max of M5.5. AIM-7 for sure and AIM-120 (I believe, don't have notes at hand) are slower.
 

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Okay...

I found something interesting. There is a particular aluminum alloy (D-19T) used in the MiG-25 which allegedly is good to 350 Celsius or 662 F. Now I've been told the closest location to the nose to use this alloy is just behind the cockpit.

Considering the long nose of the MiG-25 and it's shape, can anyone give me any guesstimates as to how hot the nose would have to be for the air temperature to be 662 F just behind the cockpit?


KJ Lesnick
 

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Well, you can use the stagnation temperature of air as the upper limit at least. (ie if the airflow was stopped to a standstill and all its energy went to heating it):
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/BGH/stagtmp.html

Doing a million very coarse simplifications, Mach 3.6 is about 1 km/s of speed, and air's specific heat capacity is about 1 kJ / (K*kg), we get the energy from motion to 5E5 J/kg and thus the temperature rise is 500000/1000 K or about 500 K. (Or 500 C temperature rise from ambient conditions). Assuming 230 K initial temp, which is -40 C, then a 500 C increase results in 460 C. That's the upper limit. In reality the heating is less, since the air is not stopped completely, the plane is shaped aerodynamically and we are interested in the heat of the structure, not that of air. The Cp of air at that altitude might be less though which would increase the temperature.
But the NASA page is better, it goes to more realistic calculations.
 

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mz,

Since the air is not completely slowed down, the stag temps are not entirely accurate. What speed would you say the air at the nose would actually be slowed down to (mach wise)?
 

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Hi guys, dug out this old thread as the SR-71 propaganda has spiked once more recently. Some answers were very helpful and informative, thanks!

I just want to add some considerations to the thread:

1. What do you expect to hear from highly trained and indoctrinated USAF pilots? Full disclosure of BVR tactics and parameters maybe? Any trained military will give you the answer your question suggests, will say he doesn't know, or something random.
2. What do you expect to hear from a member of the Russian VKS?
3. What was the purpose of the MiG-25 after all? When seemingly SU-15, MiG-23 and even MiG-21 could do thye same job. They built more than a thausand of that extreme machine.
4. Why do some of you assume the USSR accounted for every modification they made or even for the actual parameters of an extreme and expensive weapons system that they built in big numbers - obviously relying on it for performing of some not really clear tasks. At that level of performance it should be intuitive that those extreme machines had parameters and flight envelopes dictating very specific way of piloting and missions profiles. - applies for both SR and MiG. Why would anyone disclose the actual parameters, profile, envelope, etc?

Something to consider: Does anyone outside the military of any country operating supersonic fighters know the launch, defense and other parameters of BVR missiles? - The answer is: No.

My take is that it is very, very possible that:
1. The SR had a modification with weapons bay or some other means to deliver something very big and nasty very fast very far. Irrepective if it was ever tested, installed, etc. This capability could have been exploited.
2. The MiG was more than capable to intercept and down and SR with very high probability even alone. Even if it didn't in 1967, it did in the 70's. 1.100+ made is not because it was just a tad faster 23 of SU-15.
3. At high supersonic speeds the airfoil doesn't work the way it does at lower speeds. Lift is created by the angle of attack.
Thus, it is very easy to figure out that drag is proportional to weight.
- Now compare the two planes weights.
- Now compare the two planes thrust.
- Now... Compare the MiG-31 to the two former planes...
4. The last consideration is, if you compare the prices of the SR and the MiGs it is very obvious that an exchange rate of 1:1 is very favorable for the USSR whereas they had built more MiG-25's than SRs, XB70s, etc. the US could have ever built. Also the burned engines myth is already busted, they didn't burn. See that video, you could disregard what you don't like, but there are some graphs of the power Vs drag, lift, etc. that can't be disregarded:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSn9_6Vnft8


My conclusion is that almost every claim of the two planes performance is most likely true, with that twist that the SR was the more poorly made plane, also less developed with more primitive engines and metallurgy. Imagine comparing a prototype car and a series one. The SR had bigger problem with inlet heat than the MiG.

Here's exactly how to do it:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5s0zieHSXY

As you can see, the USSR tailor made a weapon system that can down an SR front and rear hemishere. Also, you get a hint why the speed of the MiG-25 was limited. 9.000 km/h maximum relative approach speed of the fuse... If you add the maximum speeds of the rocket, the MiG and the SR, it would be more than 9.000 km/h, thus the speed was limited. At M=2.8+ the missile fuse began overheating, that's why that relative speed limit.

References taken from the channel of the author of the videos:
"
Ka-bot 2015 AN-ts
преди 1 месец

"Автоматизированная система управления "Воздух-1" (в 4-х частях)", publishing house of the Ministry of Defense of the USSR, 1963; J. Fedosov. "Полвека в авиации" глава 2; Markovsky, Prikhodchenko, "Истребитель-перехватчик Су-15: граница на замке"; Data on the flight characteristics of the Phoenix missile - from the NASA source about the flying laboratory based on the Phoenix. Historical information (about the attempt to ram the U-2, about the characteristics of the R-40, about the defeat of the KRM target-drons) is contained in military journals, as well as in declassified reports. In the video about the trajectories of the S-75 missiles on my channel, there are scans of a declassified report on the KRM target with its speed and height - it was the same target that the MiG-25 shot down."

Read the comments of both videos, allot of further references and explanations by the author.



Now some critic. Many of you say that the SR "Simply" accelerated when threatened. That "simply" is simple only in words, in practice it could have accelerated only to the ISS or the Moon LoL

P.S. The current record holder of absolute maximum altitude and time to altitude to 25, 30, 35 and 37-something km is the MiG-31... Figure it out by yourself. The MiG-25 is lighter and has more thrust at high altitude... Anyway, that's not that interesting, because in the high speed intercept game, time of takeoff has bigger influence on the chances than an altitude and speed drag race... that the MiG would have won...
 
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There is a book on the Internet "Practical aerodynamics of the MiG-25RB", in many respects it coincides with the MiG-25P. It describes in detail the capabilities of the aircraft
 

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Didn’t Groom Lake have one or two of these things? I would not be surprised if the doughnuts on a rope/ sonic booms were from a young pilot who got a good screaming at for junking the engines.
 

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