Could HMS Ark Royal 1977 beat HMS QE?

uk 75

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I know this is a bit of a silly one, but as the HMS Ark Royal was the carrier in the RN
when I was at school etc I could not help wondering how she and her Phantoms and
Buccaneers would fair against the new QE with a similar load of F35s.
I know the Bucs had MARTELs, but they were not very reliable..
 
?
I'm not looking to be unkind but the answer to that question (assuming your talking about the carriers and their respective escorts) is so obvious as to make the discussion unneccessary.
The modern version is multiple generations ahead of it predecessor in capability and technology; it would be no contest.
 
Not at all unkind. Neither Ark Royal nor QE are themselves
armed, so I assume we are only talking about the relative
capabilities of aircraft and escorts.
On a good day the escorting Type 45 for QE could by
itself shield QE from a Buccaneer strike, but on a bad day..
More interesting perhaps is what a handful of F35s could do
against a combination of Phantoms and some Seadarts in
1977 from Bristol Sheffield and Birmingham.
 
Right, to continue the Back to the Future/Final Countdown style discussion, assuming a Buccaneer got close enough, I'm sure Phalanx could shred a Red Beard. Could it handle four at once? From all quarters? Martels would probably just fall off the launch rails.

Chris
 
CJGibson said:
Right, to continue the Back to the Future/Final Countdown style discussion, assuming a Buccaneer got close enough, I'm sure Phalanx could shred a Red Beard. Could it handle four at once? From all quarters? Martels would probably just fall off the launch rails.

Chris

Given the vast superiority in radar coverage and range (including the AWAC Merlins) and of the defence systems (including the F-35s) of the QE task force you'd need an extra big dose of Sci-Fi for the Buccaners to get anywhere near Red Beard tossing range (that does sound unfortunate....).

As for the strike capability of the QE task force the likely latest-tech hunter-killer sub would be more than capable of easily taking out the Ark on its own (and that's before we get into the F-35s massive superiority over the Phantoms or the Ark's task force's SAMs).
it would probably only be the Ark Royals possible hunter killer sub escort that could cause the QE task force any real difficulties.
 
Chris You have me banged to rights. Final Countdown remains one of
my favourite films.
Using that as a base, I sort of assumed a carrier on carrier match, with
no escorts and especially no ssn.
I still think the Phantoms and Buccaneers would hold up well against the
troubled F35s and their limited payloads
 
Depends on the weather to be honest, the F-35B and the STOV carrier should be more adept at flying operations in rougher weather that would ground Arks aircraft. The advanced sensor systems and defences should blunt the Buccaneer attack n QNLZ should they gat past the F-35s and Type 45/26 combo and the Arks carrier group would struggle to detect the F-35Bs, and whilst they don't have ship killer missiles their precision guided munitions could effectively neutralise the Ark.
 
It depends on when the engagement takes place, and which weapons have been cleared for use on the F-35 by then.

The F-35 can carry AMRAAM and ASRAAM. Even if you limit loadouts to its internal bays only, 2 AMRAAM plus 2 ASRAAM have a pretty good chance of taking out 4 Buccs before those even realize the F-35 is there.
Phantoms with their 1960s era electronics had plenty of trouble, and firing a Sparrow took forever.

I don't see this ending well for Ark Royal.
 
Thanks for entering into the spirit of this.
I was assuming that the QE and Ark had been deprived of their
escorts a la Final Countdown and were only able to duel
using their available aircraft. Neither carries any defensive missiles.
QE still has no AEW allocated and Ark only has its Gannet AEW.
So we are probably talking 8 F35 versus 8 Phantoms and Buccaneers.
The F35s modern radars and AMRAAMs should be able to tackle
the old aircraft, and then use Paveways to disable Ark.
Would make an interesting computer sim.
 
Are there any open source tactical war fighting Sims line that, or would you use your flight simulators that take everything seriously and bring in some former naval aviators and sailors and actually fight the thing a few times?

I've seen some of the output screens on PowerPoint slides for those sorts of digital wargames, but I assume none are open source? And if so aren't very useful. I know the onus that showed that F-35s in the state were going to be kibble were very sticky brushed aside, though the people running the Sims stood by them, they were simply used to extrapolate too much.
 
As a preface; Command: Modern Air / Naval Operations (CMANO) is a spiritual successor to the Harpoon simulator series; it comes in two versions; an $80 USD public version which I personally believe to be not much more than a game, as the stats are public domain figures and there's various inaccuracies that can't be corrected (CMANO throws a fit if one of its SQL databases is modified; I've tried as based on my understanding they understate the F-35 and F-22's figures). There's also a professional edition strictly for government and industry users which both features more realistic data and allows customers to input their own. I personally only own the public / game copy.

Anyway, so I threw together a scenario of the QE vs the AR as of 1985. The QE had 8x F-35Bs and they were limited to just using AIM-120Cs (4x internal if in an air-to-air configuration), a gun pod and up to 2x internal Paveways. The Ark had 8x F-4Ks, each equipped with 4x Sparrows and 4x Sidewinders, as well as a gun pod and a couple of drop tanks, as well as 4x Buccaneers each equipped with 4x Mk-13s, 1x Sidewinder and 1x AN/ALQ-101 and some tanks. The carriers started about 450NM away from one another and sailed closer.

The F-35Bs launched with 6x configured for air-to-air and 2x with Paveways. Their ESM detected F-4K radar emissions (half had their radars on) from a few hundred nautical miles away, spread out and closed head-on. As they got closer, their LPI AESAs picked up, ID'd and targeted the silent Phantoms as well. AMRAAMs were launched from near their max range, the Phantoms detected the missile contrails from 40NM and due to the number of missiles inbound, all Phantoms turned on their radars to try and detect incoming missiles. As the missiles got closer they attempted evasion.

About half the Phantoms were hit in the initial salvo, but only 1 was killed; the other 3 all had their comms and/or radar destroyed, making them appear dead to the rest of the Cold War forces, while those damaged Phantoms tried to continue on. The Buccaneers had been trailing by around 50NM, but given the size of the attack, turned around to put distance between them and the fight.

The F-35s split up with the 2x strike jets (which had expended their AMRAAMs) flying through the battle and towards the Buccaneers and Ark Royal (which had been detected via ESM). The rest of the F-35s continued firing at the Phantoms; the F-35Bs ran out of missiles before the last Phantom was killed, so one closed in and took it out with their gun (the Phantom wasn't manoeuvrable enough nor had the situational awareness to keep up, though the differences weren't that dramatic). While the Phantoms were being wiped out, the Buccaneers ran back to the Ark Royal to try and gain air cover. The 2x strike F-35Bs were detected by the AR's radars at around 50NM, but they couldn't ID the jets; they were manually set to hostile when the unknown contacts accelerated towards the carrier; bombs were dropped but the Ark detected the bombs and took them out with Sea Darts. The F-35Bs had disappeared off radar by the time the bombs finished being intercepted. The Buccaneers stayed overhead the carrier, as the enemy force's size was still unknown (in total only 4 F-35Bs were detected and only two were identified).

The rest of the F-35Bs had already returned to the QE and been hot re-armed with Paveways and AMRAAMs; once the other 2 were back and re-armed they all launched again. They took out the Buccaneers before the F-35Bs themselves were detected on radar and then launched 16x Paveways at the Ark. A couple malfunctioned and quite a few were taken out by Sea Darts, but at least 4 hit and they left the Ark with no long range radar, minimal comms, a few destroyed / damaged autocanons, a damaged deck and a major fire that then continued to grow and after 3 hours, caused it to begin sinking. The Ark only had 2x Sea Darts remaining by the end of that attack, so third F-35B strike would have destroyed it regardless.
 
Two problem with this game scenario, the Ark Royal of 1977 (Aduacious Class) had no Sea Darts and the Ark Royal of 1985 (Invincible Class) had Sea Dart but couldn't carry anything other than choppers and Sea Harriers.
Ark Royal never received her four Sea Cat launchers after her 1969 refit, so she never carried any defensive armament at all from that point on until her decommissioning.
 
It would be a sad state if the QE and group could NOT very easily deal with the Ark and her group, easily. As has been mentioned, the only red flag would be the submarine contingent of an Ark group and even that should be dealt with by the QE submarine contingent.

Perhaps the Ark group could by dint of a submarine contingent running at minimal speed hit the QE with a few torpedo launches but the weapons carried would hardly be quiet either.
 
uk 75 said:
Thanks for entering into the spirit of this.
I was assuming that the QE and Ark had been deprived of their
escorts a la Final Countdown and were only able to duel
using their available aircraft. Neither carries any defensive missiles.
QE still has no AEW allocated and Ark only has its Gannet AEW.
So we are probably talking 8 F35 versus 8 Phantoms and Buccaneers.
The F35s modern radars and AMRAAMs should be able to tackle
the old aircraft, and then use Paveways to disable Ark.
Would make an interesting computer sim.

The Sea King MK7 are still flying with 849 sqdn and Crowsnest Merlin would be available if QE was to deploy before the Carrier Strike stand up in 2023
 
thanks again to everyone.
Despite the jokey nature of the thread, the contributors have provided some
interesting and useful information.

I promise not to get in to the Kuznetzov thread, as that would not be what-if
 
Hood said:
Two problem with this game scenario, the Ark Royal of 1977 (Aduacious Class) had no Sea Darts and the Ark Royal of 1985 (Invincible Class) had Sea Dart but couldn't carry anything other than choppers and Sea Harriers.
Ark Royal never received her four Sea Cat launchers after her 1969 refit, so she never carried any defensive armament at all from that point on until her decommissioning.

Ah my bad; I'm not much of a naval warfare guy; the jets were initially spawned mid-air anyway and the Phantoms never had the chance to land. The game also has separate databases for most pre-1980-operated equipment, meaning I couldn't view / add an Aduacious class vessel into the same scenario as an F-35B anyway.

Without those Sea Darts though, the 1977 Ark Royal likely would have been hit and at least mission-killed in the initial F-35B strike; the database entry for a 1970-1979 R 09 Ark Royal only lists 2x Corvus chaff / flare launchers as the ship's total offensive / defensive stores.
 
Dragon 029
Only a minor glitch - Seadart was available on Bristol and Sheffield in 1977
but my limiter a la Final Countdown has them turned for home.
I very much enjoyed your air battle. I hope that the F35s prove to be as good in
real life.
 
Is the Kongsberg Joint Strike Missile supposed to fit internally on the F-35B or just the A/C variants?

I know the UK isn't planning to buy the JSM/NSM but do they have anti-ship missiles of any type in service at the moment? IIRC the Sea Eagle was retired a few years back.
 
The only in service anti-ship missile at the moment I believe is the Sea Skua fitted to the naval Wildcats. These will be replaced by a mix of Sea Venom and Martlet, but not until the 2020s.
 
Sea Skua went out of service a couple of months ago when Lynx retired.

Harpoon remains in service, but has an impending out of service date at the end of next year.
 

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