BZ.308 and Douglas DC-4E

[carlo961]

I find a close resemblance between the Douglas DC-4E of 1938 and the Breda-Zappata BZ.308.
But also the seaplane forerunner of BZ.308, the CRDA Cant Z.511 was similar in some aspect to the DC-4E.

I read in the book of Mr. Evangelisti "Le navi aeree di Filippo Zappata", that the Italian Engineer visited the United States in late thirties. Unfortunately no details about his activities and contacts with US aeronautical industry of the period has been described in that book.

It is possible that Zappata saw the DC-4E and was then inspired for his further projects ?

 

[Skybolt]

Possible, it is possible. Although the Kondor was another influence. BTW, the Cant Z.511 was started in summer 1937.

 

[archipeppe]

BZ 308 was closer to the Constellation rather than the DC-4E.
CANT Z-511 seems to be already unrelated....

 

[Skybolt]

er, no. The BZ-308 is a reworking of the 511 through two "missing link", the BZ-305/306, heavy bomber and liner designed in late 1942.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3026.0/highlight,bz-305.html

I'll have to post that table, a day or another.
BTW, first images of the Constellation surely reached Europe not earlier than February 1943.

 

[archipeppe]

er, no. The BZ-308 is a reworking of the 511 through two "missing link", the BZ-305/306, heavy bomber and liner designed in late 1942.

That's really interesting and new (at least to me).
I always had a strong interest in Italian heavy bombers and this BZ-305/306 sounds new and intriguing.

Did it was connected with the same development line that lead to P-133 and Sm-95B??

 

[carlo961]

BZ 308 was closer to the Constellation rather than the DC-4E.
CANT Z-511 seems to be already unrelated....

At a first glance the BZ.308 seems closer to Constellation than the DC-4E.

But remember that I am considering the DC-4E, the first and only example built, bigger and quite different from the later DC-4 built in series.

The DC4E had a tail with three rudders...inonically similar to the Constellation.
But small details, like the undercarriage with big, single main wheels (instead of the couple of small wheels for each undercarriage leg sported by the DC-4) are very similar in the BZ.308.
Again, the shape and the positions of the fuselage passengers windows in the CZ.511 are very similar to those of DC-4E.
The shape of the BZ.308 wing seems very similar to the DC-4E wing.
It could be interesting to compare the main data of these aircraft (dimensions, weights, surfaces).

 

[redstar72]

It could be interesting to compare the main data of these aircraft (dimensions, weights, surfaces).

Why not?

Wing span: DC-4E - 42.16 m; BZ.308 - 42.10 m
Length: DC-4E - 29.83 m; BZ.308 - 33.52 m
Height: DC-4E - 7.4 m; BZ.308 - 7.2 m
Wing area: DC-4E - 200.2 m2; BZ.308 - 206.6 m2
Empty weight: DC-4E - 19 308 kg; BZ.308 - 26 000 kg
Max. takeoff weight: DC-4E - 27 896 kg; BZ.308 - 46 500 kg

Powerplant: DC-4E - 4x P&W R-2180-S1A1G Twin Hornet (1450 hp each),
BZ.308 - 4x Bristol Centaurus 568 (2550 hp each)

Crew: DC-4E - 3; BZ.308 - 5
Passengers: DC-4E - 42; BZ.308 - 49 to 80

The DC-4E data are from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_DC-4E, BZ.308 data from http://www.airwar.ru/enc/aliner/bz308.html.

 

[Skybolt]

The Constellation was really a generation later (designed for pressurization, for starting).
Peppe, just compare in plan view the 511 and the BZ-308. There are some minor mysteries, for example. which were the original engines planned for the BZ-308 ? The Centaurus was a second thought, and while more than adequate in power their shape forced a redisegn of the nacelle that changed the COG of the plane. The BZ-308 was nose-heavy, and it needed a certain skill on part of the pilot during the landing rotation to not smash the front tyre and damage the hydraulics of the gear.
My guess is that they planned to use Piaggio P.XV/RC60 of 1700 HPs and take off and later gas turbines developed in Italy.

 

[frank]

After looking at some pics & finally finding a 3 view:

http://www.encyber.com/comm/board/bl_view.php?tid=encyberillust&division=&p=1&schf=&schv=&lskin=list&range=&del_gubun=&modiidxNo=&sOption1=&sOption2=&sOption3=&sOption4=&idxNo=1414

I have to say I think it looks more like a Connie than a DC-4E as well. If I were to scratchbuild / kitbash one, I'd start with a Connie. I've had a 1/48 scale DC-3 in my stash for several years that I'd use as a basis for a 1/72 DC-4E. I'd not use a Connie for a DC-4E or a DC-3 for a BZ.308........ I also found some pics of the Cant Z.511, & it makes me think of a bigger FW 200, tho obviously on floats & larger. I also found a side view of a Piaggio P.108C or T, but that's a whole different subject.

BZ 308 was closer to the Constellation rather than the DC-4E.
CANT Z-511 seems to be already unrelated....

At a first glance the BZ.308 seems closer to Constellation than the DC-4E.

But remember that I am considering the DC-4E, the first and only example built, bigger and quite different from the later DC-4 built in series.

The DC4E had a tail with three rudders...inonically similar to the Constellation.
But small details, like the undercarriage with big, single main wheels (instead of the couple of small wheels for each undercarriage leg sported by the DC-4) are very similar in the BZ.308.
Again, the shape and the positions of the fuselage passengers windows in the CZ.511 are very similar to those of DC-4E.
The shape of the BZ.308 wing seems very similar to the DC-4E wing.
It could be interesting to compare the main data of these aircraft (dimensions, weights, surfaces).

 

[redstar72]

I found another 3-view of the BZ.308. It is from Czech L+K magazine, No.10/2009.

 

[archipeppe]

I just found such nice (and for me unknown) BZ-308 cutaway:

 

[carlo961]

Please note, from 3/4 rear view, the stunning resemblance between the two aircraft: