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Boeing Confident in Production of Super Hornet Beyond 2017

John21

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bobbymike said:
http://aviationweek.com/combat-aircraft/us-navy-green-lights-new-and-improved-super-hornet
Good for Boeing and the Navy. B) Glad to see SuperBugs for decades to come. Although from reading the article I guess the proposed engine upgrades are a no-go :-[. Every other upgrade seems to be a go though, so that's good.
 

Dragon029

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It is slightly disappointing that they couldn't get the internally fitted IRST (like with the Advanced Super Hornet demo airframe), but then again it apparently meant removing the M61.
 

Colonial-Marine

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Without the improved engines and internal IRST I can't say I'm very impressed by this upgrade.

Would they really have had to remove the M61 for that though? Seems a bit extreme.
 

Dragon029

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I'm actually a bit confused now - the "original" Advanced Super Hornet airframe they showed off didn't have an IRST, but also didn't have an M61 - maybe they replaced it with a notional electronics pallet like on the Growler.

With the renders / photos of a later version with an integrated IRST, the gun makes a return - with an EOTS-style system, that's impossible, because the optics redirect light upwards to FPAs, etc above it (and on the Super Hornet the M61's drum sits there, between the radar back-end and nose gear bay), but I think they did what I was going to suggest - have all the electronics and optics external in what would essentially be a conformal SNIPER, etc pod.

The issue with doing it like this however is you lose a fair bit of field of regard, plus to do M61 maintenance you have to remove the IRST (because the gun is meant to drop down (IIRC once the nose cone hinges off and the radar is slid forward).
 

bring_it_on

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That the Navy had an IRST program for the F-14 but did not request an integrated IRST when they pursued the Super Hornet program speaks of their short sightedness. Since retrofitting hundreds of aircraft will not be easy they are forced to pursue the podded concept, either as a stand alone pod like the air-force or the centerline tank installation that they currently plan on procuring.
 

bobbymike

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https://news.usni.org/2017/06/13/navy-intends-to-buy-80-more-super-hornets-in-fydp-to-ease-fighter-shortfall
 

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bobbymike said:
https://news.usni.org/2017/06/13/navy-intends-to-buy-80-more-super-hornets-in-fydp-to-ease-fighter-shortfall
80 over 5 years? Why bother... 200 over 5 years would be meaningful.
 

Dragon029

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These Super Hornets are being bought to compensate for accelerated wear, not to increase the operational fleet size. I don't think increasing your total fleet by 40% would really fit those intentions.
 

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Colonial-Marine said:
Without the improved engines and internal IRST I can't say I'm very impressed by this upgrade.
And the Super Bug could certainly use an improved engine with some more thrust :-\
 

GTX

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Hood said:
It looks like Boeing could lose out after all on getting any Super Hornet orders from Canada.
They seem to be looking at ex-RAAF airframes instead.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/canada-entertains-australian-hornet-buy-to-fill-int-440940/
The Australian option is only for classic Hornets not Super Hornets. Moreover, it would only be a very interim option giving more spares etc to stretch the life of the CF-188s. Others such as Malaysia are also interested in the RAAF Classic Hornets.
 

Triton

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"Liberals looking at alternatives to Super Hornets as dispute with Boeing rages"
by Lee Berthiaume, The Canadian Press

September 6, 2017

Source:
http://rdnewsnow.com/article/551043/former-brass-urge-liberals-buy-used-australian-jets-not-new-super-hornets


OTTAWA — It once appeared the Liberal government would almost certainly buy Super Hornet fighter jets from U.S. aerospace giant Boeing Co. — but it's now clear that other options are on the table.

Aside from the Super Hornets, the government are also pondering used jets and could even end up extending the lives of Canada's CF-18s as its dispute with Boeing continues to escalate.

Speaking to reporters in Kelowna, B.C., where Liberal MPs are meeting before the return of Parliament, Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan said the government is actively looking at alternatives to the Super Hornets as an interim fighter.

"We had identified that the Super Hornets could potentially fill that gap, but ... Boeing has not been a partner, especially when it comes to dealing with our aerospace sector," Sajjan said Wednesday.

"So we are looking at other options."

Those alternatives include deploying a team of defence officials in the past few weeks to look at some of Australia's used F/A-18s, which the country is selling as it prepares to receive new F-35 stealth fighters.

Several retired air force officers say the F/A-18 is very similar to Canada's CF-18s, and buying the used planes from Australia would be much more cost effective than new Super Hornets.

"It's a far better idea than buying Super Hornets because you're at least conceptually using the same airframe," said former chief of defence staff Tom Lawson.

"If they are interested in addressing the short-term capability gap, then they may want to consider that, and it's a far, far better plan, far less expensive and far less interruptive than purchasing Super Hornets."

But Australia isn't the only option if the government is looking to strengthen Canada's CF-18 fleet on a temporary basis until they can be replaced in a full competition.

Kuwait is also looking to sell its used F/A-18s in favour of Super Hornets, while several allies will be getting rid of used F-16s and other fighter aircraft in the coming years as they are replaced by F-35s.

National Defence said officials have not visited any other countries, but it would not say whether there have been discussions about the availability of used aircraft.

Some experts have also suggested that with the U.S. Navy looking to keep many of its own F/A-18s flying past 2025, it might be time for Canada to consider extending the lives of its CF-18s again.

Officials have previously considered the option, but it was deemed too expensive because of the expected difficulty in finding parts — which would be less of a problem if the U.S. kept its jets flying.

Lisa Campbell, head of military procurement at Public Services and Procurement Canada, would not comment on specific options being considered.

"You can make sure we do our due diligence," she said in an interview. "We really do. We and the Department of National Defence. These are major purchases. They have big implications."

The Liberal government has not officially walked away from its plan to purchase interim Super Hornets, which it announced last November amid claims Canada didn't have enough fighter jets.

Campbell said officials are still waiting for the U.S. to say when the Super Hornets could be delivered, and at what cost.

The information was requested in March, and expected by the beginning of September, but it still hasn't materialized.

"We had submitted something that said: 'Here's the capability that we need, here's when we need it, here's the cost that we need it,'" Campbell said.

"We do expect a response back from them ... and we do expect that in the next couple of weeks."

Many defence insiders and industry representatives have circled Sept. 25 on their calendars as the make-or-break moment for interim Super Hornets.

That is when the U.S. Commerce Department will present the findings of its investigation — prompted by a complaint from Boeing — into whether Bombardier sold its CSeries passenger jets at an unfairly low price with help from federal subsidies.

An adverse finding could result in fines or tariffs being imposed on Bombardier, but could also prompt the Liberal government, which has criticized the investigation, to pull the plug on any deal with Boeing.

Boeing has said it won't drop its complaint to the U.S. Commerce Department because the case is important to its long-term prosperity.

During a frank phone call Tuesday with the governor of Missouri, where the Super Hornets are built, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau in turn accused Boeing of receiving billions in subsidies.

Trudeau also noted of the number of Missouri jobs that depend on the jets, and the fact Canada is the state's largest trading partner.
 

NeilChapman

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Triton said:
"Liberals looking at alternatives to Super Hornets as dispute with Boeing rages"
by Lee Berthiaume, The Canadian Press

September 6, 2017

Source:
http://rdnewsnow.com/article/551043/former-brass-urge-liberals-buy-used-australian-jets-not-new-super-hornets


OTTAWA — It once appeared the Liberal government would almost certainly buy Super Hornet fighter jets from U.S. aerospace giant Boeing Co. — but it's now clear that other options are on the table.

Aside from the Super Hornets, the government are also pondering used jets and could even end up extending the lives of Canada's CF-18s as its dispute with Boeing continues to escalate.

Speaking to reporters in Kelowna, B.C., where Liberal MPs are meeting before the return of Parliament, Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan said the government is actively looking at alternatives to the Super Hornets as an interim fighter.

"We had identified that the Super Hornets could potentially fill that gap, but ... Boeing has not been a partner, especially when it comes to dealing with our aerospace sector," Sajjan said Wednesday.

"So we are looking at other options."

Those alternatives include deploying a team of defence officials in the past few weeks to look at some of Australia's used F/A-18s.....
Hmmm. I'm guessing that support costs from Boeing will be high. Boeing is going to get it's "pound of flesh" one way or another.
 

TomcatViP

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The unit cost paid by the USN has been published. There are no secrets. The cost that Canada could pay is that of a new design with advanced capabilities that still have no logistical framework in the country. It's not the plane, it's the plane, the surrounding eco-system, the weapon, the training of personnel etc... You can't divide the total cost per the number of items here. What you can do however is to get an idea of the cost of all the surrounding expenses ;)

The SH remains a substantial evolution from the classical Hornet. What we can hope is that this investment won't be divested with yet another switch in the future.
 

Airplane

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TomcatViP said:
The unit cost paid by the USN has been published. There are no secrets. The cost that Canada could pay is that of a new design with advanced capabilities that still have no logistical framework in the country. It's not the plane, it's the plane, the surrounding eco-system, the weapon, the training of personnel etc... You can't divide the total cost per the number of items here. What you can do however is get an idea of the cost of all the surrounding expenses ;)

The SH remain a substential evolution from the classical Hornet. What we can hope is that this investment won't be divested with yet another switch in the future.
I hope it get's 25% more thrust.
 

TomcatViP

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By the way (re-reading the Def-Aerospace.com article):

We have already demonstrated that the F-35’s costs are being manipulated. But the example of how F-18 costs are boosted to multiples of what the Pentagon is paying for the same aircraft offers a cautionary tale to F-35 buyers.

Even assuming that the F-35’s price drops to $85 million a copy for the US, applying the same cost escalation model as for the Super Hornet indicates that export F-35s could end up costing six times as much, or about $510 million each, once spares, support equipment, training and weapons are added.
!?!
That guy has a problem. Look like a kid making wild conclusion from his own set of assumptions. What's the meaning of having such an eccenctric free to paint his monomaniac diatribe all across the pages of this rather serious website remains a mystery to me.

Why?
 

GTX

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TomcatViP said:
That guy has a problem. Look like a kid making wild conclusion from his own set of assumptions. What's the meaning of having such an eccenctric free to paint his monomaniac diatribe all across the pages of this rather serious website remains a mystery to me.
Welcome to Giovanni de Briganti - another who lets their hatred of the F-35 cloud their 'work'. He often puts commentary against Media Releases and even tries to manipulate the story headlines to spin it his own twisted way.
 

Triton

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"U.S. approves sale of 18 Super Hornet jets to Canada for $6.4-billion"

by Daniel Leblanc
Ottawa 2 days ago

Source:
https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/us-approves-sale-of-18-super-hornet-jets-to-canada-for-64-billion/article36238437/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com&

The American government has put a price tag of $6.4-billion on the sale of 18 Super Hornet jets to the Canadian military, even though Ottawa has vowed not to strike a deal with the aircraft's manufacturer, Boeing Co., over an unrelated trade dispute.

In a letter of notification to Congress on Tuesday, the U.S. Department of Defence said it supported the potential military sale to Canada of 18 fighter jets, eight spare engines and other military hardware and equipment.

"This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security objectives of the United States by helping to improve the security of a NATO ally which has been, and continues to be, a key democratic partner of the United States in ensuring peace and stability," the American agency said.

However, the U.S. Department of Defence pointed out that the notice to Congress "does not mean the sale has been concluded."

Ottawa has been engaged in an increasingly bitter dispute with Boeing, which filed a complaint last April against Canadian-based Bombardier Inc. with the U.S. Department of Commerce.

The federal government has used the Super Hornet acquisition as its main bargaining chip in its efforts to get Boeing to drop its case against Bombardier over allegations of illegal subsidies and dumping.

Still, the acquisition of 18 Super Hornets, which Ottawa announced last year, is ongoing throughout the dispute.

On March 13, the federal government sent a formal "letter of request" to the U.S. government in which it laid out the requirements for 18 Super Hornet aircraft, including precise questions on specs, delivery schedule and economic benefits.

"As early as fall 2017, Canada expects to receive a response from the U.S. government. The proposal will be reviewed to determine if the U.S. government can provide the interim solution at a cost, schedule, level of capability and economic value acceptable to Canada. If this process is successful, Canada could enter into a formal agreement with the U.S. government for the interim aircraft and associated elements of in-service support as early as the end of 2017 or the beginning of 2018," the federal government said at the time.

The federal government has stopped talking directly to Boeing about the Super Hornet acquisition because of the Bombardier dispute. However, under the process known as a "foreign military sale," the Canadian government is officially a client of the American government in this ongoing acquisition.

"We understand the formal Congressional notification process has started. At this time we must defer to the US government on any official details, but we are encouraged by the U.S. government's support for this important capability in the defense of North America," Boeing said in a statement on Tuesday.
 

Triton

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"Buying Super Hornet fighter jets would cost Canada more than $6B, U.S. government confirms"
by David Pugliese

September 12, 2017

Source:
http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/buying-super-hornet-fighter-jets-would-cost-canada-more-than-6-billion-u-s-government-confirms

It will cost Canada more than $6 billion to buy 18 American-made Super Hornet fighter jets, the U.S. government announced Tuesday, even as a trade dispute that threatens the deal remains unresolved.

The Liberal government’s plans to buy the planes, intended as a stopgap measure until the purchase of a replacement fleet for Canada’s aging CF-18s, was derailed when the jet’s manufacturer, Boeing, filed a trade complaint against Bombardier over the Quebec company’s civilian passenger jets.

It is unclear whether the Super Hornet purchase will ever be completed, as Boeing has ignored Canadian government demands to drop the complaint that could see the Trump administration enforce tariffs on Bombardier aircraft being sold in the U.S.

On Tuesday, the U.S. State Department outlined for the first time the extent of the proposed deal and its cost to Canadian taxpayers.

he estimated price tag for the Super Hornet package is US $5.23 billion — or nearly $6.4 billion according to current exchange rates — according to a notice issued by the State Department. The notice of a potential sale is required by U.S. law and does not mean the sale has been concluded, the statement added.

That price goes well beyond the aircraft themselves, which are estimated to cost around US $77 million each; rather, it includes advanced targeting systems, spare parts, initial training and some maintenance, and almost 170 missiles.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau will meet with British Prime Minister Theresa May next week to discuss the trade dispute with Boeing. May asked U.S. President Donald Trump last week to intervene in the situation, as the British government is concerned about the impact on jobs at Bombardier’s plant in Belfast, Northern Ireland.

In April, while on its way to wrapping up the Super Hornet deal, Boeing complained to the U.S. government that Bombardier was receiving government subsidies which allowed it to sell its C-Series civilian passenger aircraft at below-market prices. The U.S. Commerce Department and International Trade Commission then launched an investigation, which is ongoing.

That prompted the Liberals to start backing away from the Super Hornet deal, although federal officials acknowledged they were still talking with the U.S. government over acquiring fighter aircraft. “It is not the behaviour of a trusted partner,” Sajjan said of Boeing in a late May speech to defence industry executives unprecedented in its criticisms of the company.

Marc Allen, Boeing’s president of international business, said the company took its action to ensure a level playing field in the industry. He said Boeing believes that global trade only works if everyone plays by the same rules. That wasn’t the case for Bombardier, he argued. Boeing has also said the Super Hornet deal should not be connected to a commercial trade dispute.
 

sferrin

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In F-35 math that comes to $360 million a pop. Good thing they're trying to save face money.
 

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Since this is the most active F-18 thread, I am posting this here. It is an aerial display in Switzerland and shows maneuvering performance I haven't seen in previous F-18 displays.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf5A13atLHQ
 

Triton

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"Boeing seeks quick legal fix to stop Bombardier"
by Dominic Gates

Originally published September 21, 2017 at 8:37 pm Updated September 21, 2017 at 10:22 pm

Source:
http://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-expects-a-quick-fix-on-dispute-with-bombardier/
 

Dreamfighter

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fredymac said:
aerial display in Switzerland and shows maneuvering performance I haven't seen in previous F-18 displays.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf5A13atLHQ
Might have to do with the Swiss´ Classic Hornets (late 90´s production) having a max. G-rating of 9+ instead of the earlier US Navy´s 7.5+ limit and having no angle-of-attack limiter.

https://www.milavia.net/airshows/display-teams/swiss-hornet-display/#img/5

I´m not 100% sure but I think the Finnish Hornets have the same capability.
 

Trident

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Yup, IIRC they even have certain parts made out of titanium rather than aluminium to enable that rating. Part of the impressive visuals in that video is also that you have a varied background to judge the speed of its motions against.

I've seen them do some of that stuff at Axalp, and it ranks among my favourite aviation memories :)
 

Jeb

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Dreamfighter said:
fredymac said:
aerial display in Switzerland and shows maneuvering performance I haven't seen in previous F-18 displays.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf5A13atLHQ
Might have to do with the Swiss´ Classic Hornets (late 90´s production) having a max. G-rating of 9+ instead of the earlier US Navy´s 7.5+ limit and having no angle-of-attack limiter.
This was one of the best displays I've ever seen and it's very impressive to see a Classic pulling some of those moves without benefit of TVC.
 

sferrin

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Trident said:
Yup, IIRC they even have certain parts made out of titanium rather than aluminium to enable that rating.
Is that Swiss-specific or C/D in general?
 

Trident

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Swiss-specific, although as Dreamfighter mentioned, it might apply to Finland's fleet too.
 

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Grey Havoc said:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/10/12/justin-trudeau-tells-donald-trump-will-block-boeing-contracts/
 

Dragon029

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I wonder if 'no buying Boeing aircraft' would include the Australian legacy Hornets being considered. Would paying Boeing to SLEP more of their CF-18s be out of the picture as well? If so that'd either mean a wind-down of the RCAF for the next ~4 years, or the 'interim' acquisition of either the F-35 or a European fighter, wouldn't it?
 

Arjen

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Can't get much more interim than that.
 

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http://aviationweek.com/defense/super-hornet-demonstrates-eye-watering-sensor-fusion?NL=AW-05&Issue=AW-05_20180525_AW-05_798&sfvc4enews=42&cl=article_1&utm_rid=CPEN1000002744591&utm_campaign=14997&utm_medium=email&elq2=b1c16669e9d54f3c8bfc1f587497d1d1

Super Hornet demonstrate sensor fusion during the training...
 

XP67_Moonbat

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Boeing has their eyes set those Block III upgrades.

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/21045/here-is-boeings-master-plan-for-the-f-a-18e-f-super-hornets-future
 

fredymac

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Another F-18 airshow display showing maneuver performance not usually seen. It's odd to see this level of capability showing up now so long after entering service. Either pilot training in flying the aircraft to its limits has improved or this performance has been kept unadvertised for operational reasons. However I haven't seen any similar enhancements in F-16 displays.

 

TomcatViP

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Probably that something was declassified. I have noticed the Swiss too getting "reckless" recently.
It's amazing what's this "bee" can do... And easy today to understand how they can have traded their Tomcat without much fuzz. (notice the Tomcat is a 40+deg alpha airframe, 50+% more than a Su27, 50-% more than a Viper, 40% more than a Rafale)...

Thank you for sharing.
 

fredymac

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The maneuver at 7:30-7:40 really caught my eye. It seems to be something only a thrust vectored aircraft should be able to do.
 
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