Boeing Model 493 ("Boeing C-127")

[Skybolt]

This 4 turboprop 1952 cargo aircraft is one of the few american aircraft to simultaneously reach the official designation stage, not being built and being almost unknown. There is a 3-view drawing in "C planes" (one of my long-term buying items...) accompained by a meaningless blurb of the fact that it was cancelled in 1952 because the jet-engine era for military cargos was impending (in 1952????????????????????????). Any more info (and someone who possesses the above mentioned book who is so kind to make me spare 55 euros for this time) ? ;D

 

[lark]

Don't throw away money Sky.I send you what
you're asking for...

 

[elmayerle]

My copy of that one is buried way deep. I wonder, though, if that one might not have been a competitor to the C-132?

 

[Skybolt]

Thanx Paul...
and, Elm,

I wonder, though, if that one might not have been a competitor to the C-132?

, from what I remember of the drawing and general dimensions, it looks more a competitor of the C-133 (RFP for whose competition started in 1951), though wider body.

 

[Maveric]

Hi all,

found this drawing about the Boeing C.127 projects. Do you have the Model-number by Boeing and technical data?

Thanks Maveric

 

[Stargazer]

Great find! I believe this to be a contender for the same specification as the very similar Douglas C-124 Globemaster II. This being said, I'm truly puzzled by the "C-127" designation... A tentative name from Boeing to "push" the project? Or a genuinely considered DoD designation?

The C-127 slot was allocated to the De Havilland DHC-2 Beaver, and was delivered as the L-20 in the utility series. Was this Boeing "C-127" prior to that, as I believe it was, or a later re-allocation?

 

[richard]

Boeing Model 367-60 (1950 KC 97 replacement project) shows a similar wing.

 

[Maveric]

My source: Schiffer - The 'C' Planes - US Cargo Aircraft 1925- to the Present

 

[lark]

Designation C-127 was first used for the DHC-2.It was later
redesignated L-20 and/or U-6 .

Source: -The "C" Planes-mentioned by Maveric.

 

[Stargazer]

Designation C-127 was first used for the DHC-2.It was later
redesignated L-20 and/or U-6 .

Source: -The "C" Planes-mentioned by Maveric.

Yep. Know that. But you're still not answering my question: did the allocation of the Beaver to C-127 come BEFORE or AFTER the Boeing project? :-\

 

[Apophenia]

It seems that Jos Heyman and Andreas Parsch have answered that question:

"The designation C-127 was originally assigned to the deHavilland Canada DHC-2 Beaver, but that aircraft was eventually designated L-20 before it entered U.S. military service.

The designation YC-127 was then assigned to a 4-engined Boeing transport project, which was not built."

http://www.designation-systems.net/usmilav/duplications.html

 

[Stargazer]

Oh, thanks Apophenia! I've been time and again on their site but I guess there's always bits here and there that you're missing when there is such a great amount of information to read through! :-\

 

[Skybolt]

As said here http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,919.msg7273.html#msg7273 , the best guess for the purpose of the C-127 is a competitor of the C-133, whose competition was issued in 1951, not the Globemaster II. The C-127 had turbines. The specs (Logistic Carrier Support System SS402L) were an enlargement of the C-130's ones. Besides, all in all the Gobemaster II was of an earlier generation (development started in 1947 as a derivative of a wartime model).
The SS402SL compeition was a crash program done during the Korea War, and the C-133 went directly in production without building a prototype. In this frame, having an official C-XXX designation assigned on paper would have made sense.
All in all, cargo aircraft competitions are a subject seldom covered. For example, which were the competitors of the C-132 ? The idea in 1951 was evidently a complete range of cargos, to have a medium mid-range (C-130), a medium long range (C-127/C-133) and a heavy long-range (C-132, to supplemnet the C-124). And light cargos, too, but the Provider was already excellent and modern (but remember the C-134).

 

[Stargazer]

Makes sense. Thanks for clarifying this!

 

[hesham]

My source: Schiffer - The 'C' Planes - US Cargo Aircraft 1925- to the Present

From the same source.

 

[Vahe Demirjian]

There is a 3-view drawing of the Boeing Model 493 on page 208 of the book American Military Transport Aircraft Since 1925 at the following link:

American Military Transport Aircraft Since 1925

Without the support of airlift, the modern American military machine would be brought to a standstill. Since World War II--beginning with the Cold War and continuing up to the present day--the U.S. armed forces have come increasingly to rely upon airlift for mobility. The power to rapidly move...

books.google.com

 

[hesham]

We must merge those topics,

it's here;

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/boeing-c-127-transport-model-367-60-project.9984/

Done, thanks for the clue !

 

[Vahe Demirjian]

Hi,

While doing a tiny peak of Chapter 6 of American Secret Projects 2: Airlifters 1941-1961, I found out that C-127 was the initial designation for the C-124B (Model 1182). Also, the plane in the drawing that was stated in some military aviation books to have received the second usage of the C-127 designation (originally assigned to DHC-2 Beavers in US Army service) is not the Boeing 367-60, but instead the Boeing Model 493-3-2, judging from the smiley face-like feature on the front of the nose and some other features. The 367-60 had a gull wing and turboprops like the Model 493-3-2, but differed in having slightly backswept wings. (The use of C-127 for the C-124B reminds me of the nose radome-equipped Sabre, Republic Thundersteak, and Mighty Mouse-armed Starfire being originally designated F-95, F-96, and F-97 respectively before being redesignated F-86D, F-84F, and F-94C.)

That said, the mix-up of the Boeing 367-60 and 493-3-2 with the C-127 designator is a similar case to the situation where the XB-31 was thought to have been assigned to the Douglas Model 423 before Alan Griffith pointed out that XB-31 was actually the Douglas Model 332F bomber version of the DC-4/C-54 and that the Model 423 was conceived long after the B-29 and B-32 were selected for production for the R-40B contest.

 

[Vahe Demirjian]

The book American Secret Projects 2: Airlifters 1941-1961 discusses on page 158 a larger derivative of the Model 493-3-2, the Model 493-8 which had three sets of main landing gear with two dual-tandem four-wheel bogies retracting inboard into the wing roots and a four-wheel coaxial unit retracting into the lower center fuselage. The design of the fuselage nose and vertical fin was different from that of the C-97 and Model 493-3-2.

Specifications for the Model 493-8 (from page 158 of ASP2) are as follows:
- Powerplant: four 8,300 shp (6,189.3 kW) T34 turboprops
- Wingspan: 182 feet 8 in (55.68 meters)
- Length: 145 feet 3 in (44.27 meters)
- Height: 40 feet 9 in (12.42 meters)
- Wing area: 3,050 sq feet (283.4 sq meters)
- Maximum takeoff weight: 220,000 lb (99,790 kg)
- Payload: 85,000 pounds (38,560 kg)