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BMW Flugelrad III: Opinion on Aeronautics

ArmchairSamurai

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Hello all.

After a while of perusing posts on the site, I decided to make my first post. Hopefully, this is the appropriate place to do so.

This is more or less, an opinion piece. I figure all of you are already aware the BMW Flugelrad is completely fake (until proven otherwise) yet I am still fascinated by the design. The third variant is what I consider to be most intriguing of all. That being said, do any of you think it is actually capable of flight (why or why not)? I am still learning the principles of flight in regards to aeronautical engineering and thought this would be a fun topic to discuss.


BMW Flugelrad III.jpg
 

Ravinoff

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Ech, I mean...maybe? The more I look at it the less likely it seems to be able to get off the ground, the sidewalls aren't enough to be a ducted fan and it's got no side skirts. And wait, am I looking at this right, where the propeller-fan-thing is apparently powered by pointing a jet exhaust at it? Because if yes I don't even know where to begin on how the absurdity of that.

Absolute best case, it might get a foot or two off the ground and wobble until it crashes like the Avrocar.
 

riggerrob

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With a single rotor, how does it counter torque?
 

ArmchairSamurai

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Oops. I forgot to include this little snippet I found on the "aircraft". I translated it from a German website, so the English may not make sense.

"The BMW v.III was ultimately to become the standard version with a diameter of 24 meters. Two jet engines of the second generation, He S0 11 or BMW 018 with an output of 1300 and 3400 kg respectively, were planned as propulsion. The engines were arranged one above the other and separated by the rotor. The thrust nozzles were divided into two nozzles each, which were equipped with valves and thus allowed every flight maneuver.
- To climb, the power of the lower engine was increased and the thrusters of the upper engine were directed upwards.
- To descend, the power of the upper engine was increased and the thrust nozzle of the lower engine was directed downwards.
- For a left turn the left thrusters had to be closed.
- For a right turn the two right thrusters.
- For a left turn when rolling on the floor, the upper left thrust nozzle was directed upwards and the lower right nozzle downwards.
- For a right turn the same controls only had to be carried out in opposite directions.
- To start, the rotor was accelerated and the two lower thrust nozzles were directed upwards. During level flight, the rotor blades were brought into a zero degree position and acted like a conventional wing."
 
Last edited:

athpilot

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German Flying Saucers Bibliography

- ‘Die Realität der Flugscheiben’ by Andreas Epp, Michaels Vertrieb editor, 2002.

- ‘Flugscheiben-Realität oder Mythos: Gespräche mit dem Flugscheiben-Erfinder’, by Andreas Epp, Michaels Vertrieb editor, 2005.

- ‘Die deutschen Waffen und Geheimwaffen des 2. Weltkrieges und ihre Weiterentwicklung’ by Rudolf Lusar, J. F. Lehmann; Edition: 4., stark überarb. u. erw. Aufl. (1962).

- Epp, Joseph Andreas, ‘U.S. Army Intelligence, Record Group 319, Box 186, File Number GE013347’. The National Archives at College Park, College Park, Maryland. - http://www.archives.gov/iwg/declassified-records/rg-319-army-staff/personal-name-files-new.html

- ‘Evaluation Reports (ER), Final Reports (FR) und Overall Reports der British Intelligence Subcommittee, Reports der Combined Intelligence Objectives Subcommittee (C.I.O.S.) und Field Intelligence Agency (F.I.A.T.)’.

- ‘Hitler’s Flying Saucers: A guide to German Flying Discs of the Second World War’ by Henry Stevens, Adventure Unlimited, 2013.

- ‘Flying Saucer Technology’ by Bill Rose, Midland, 2011.

- ‘Secret Projects- Flying Saucer Aircraft’, by Bill Rose & Tony Buttler, Midland, 2006.

- ‘Jet Planes of the Third Reich-The Secret projects-Volume One’, by Manfred Griehl, Monogram, 1998.

- ‘Secret Weapons of the Third Reich’ by Leslie E. Simon, WE, INC., Publishers, 1971.

- ‘Messerschmitt Me 328 Bordjäger’, by Paul Malmassari, Wingmasters Nº 2.

- ‘Der Fliegende Bierdeckel’, by Arthur Sack, Die Deutsche Sportflieger, November 1939.

- ‘Der Kreisflüger AS6 V1’, by Hans Justus Meier, Luftfahrt International 4/79.

- ‘Aktennotizen und Niederschriftender der ATG-Maschinenbau GmbH.’, Leipzig, von 4.2, 3.2, 17.4 und 18.5, 1944.

- ‘Veröffentlichungen zuden Modellen von Arthur Sack’, Der Flieger 11-12/1940.

- ‘Hochwertige Motorflugmodelle’, Der Deutsche Sportflieger, 9/1940.

- ‘Das Buch der Deutschen Luftfahrttechnik’, Bidteil, Mainz, 1970.

- Der Flieger 4/1944.

- Air International, March 1979.

- ‘Neue formen des Starrflügel-Flugzeuges’, by W. Zuerl, Der Flieger 1/1944.

- ‘Dreikomponentenmessungen an einem Kreisflügel mi zwei klappen’, by E. Hildenbrand, Aerodynamische Versuchsanstalt Göttingen, Beritche Nr.40/14/40 vom 3.8.1940 und 41/14/5 vom 21.2.1941.

- ‘Deutsche Kreisflügelflugzeuge’, Flugzeug Profile Nr.23.

- ‘Fliegender Bierdeckel’, by Volker Koos, Flug Revue 3/1994.

- ‘Kreisflügler Arthur Sack AS6’, by Volker Koos, Flug Revue 11/1998.

- ‘Saucers, Swastikas and Psyops’, by Joseph T. Farrell, Adventures Unlimited, 2011.

- France Soir, June 27, 1952.

- ‘Erste Flugscheibe flog 1945 in Prag enthullt speers beauftragter’, by Georg Klein, Welt am Sonntag, April 25, 1953.

- ‘German Discs: UFO in the Third Reich’, Los Angeles Mirror, 24 March, 1950.

- Dortmund Newspaper, Westphalian Overview, 9 July 1947.

- ‘Deutsche Flugkreisel, Gab’s die?’ Luftfahrt International May/June 1975.

- ‘Projekt Flugkreisel’, by Rudolph Schriever, Bremerhavener Zeit entstanden.

- ‘Untertassen-Flieger Combination’, Der Spiegel, 30 March, 1950.

- ‘Flugkreisel Irdisch’, Helm & Welt Nr.14, 2 April, 1950.

- ‘Fliegende Untertassen’, Die 7 Tage Nr.26, June 1952.

- ‘Fliegende Untertasse’, Farb Illustrierte Nr.18, September 1952.

- ‘Fliegende Untertasse in Deutschland erfunden’, Deutsche Illustrierte, S.1350/51.

- ‘Secret Wings of WWII: Nazi Technology and the Allied Arms Race’, by Lance Cole, Pen & Sword Aviation, 2015.

- ‘Das gab’s die fliegende untertasse der deutschen Luftwaffe’, ZB Illustrierte für menschen in atomzeitalter Nr.25, December 1953.

- ‘Wunderwaffen 1945’, Bild am Sonntag, 17 February, 1957.

- ‘Die UFOs, eine deutsche Erfindung’, Das neue Zeitalter Nr.41, October 1957.

- ‘Deutsche Kreisflügelflugzeuge’, by Hans Justus Meier, Flugzeug 2/89.

- ‘Deutsche Geheimwaffen und Wunderwaffen des II. Weltkrieges’, by Christof Friedrich, Samisdat Publishers, Canada.

- ‘Aeronautical Research in Germany: From Lilienthal until Today’, by Ernst Heinrich Hirschel, Springer 2012.

- Henry Coanda Propelling Device Patents 2,157,281/2,131,472/2,108,653 (10 January 1936).

- ‘Applications of the Coanda Effect’, by Imants Reba, Scientific American, June 1966.

- ‘The Coanda Effect’, by R.S. Sproule and S.T. Robinson. CIOS Reports. File Nº IX (1), 1944.

- ‘The Vanishing Paperclips’ by Hans H. Amtmann, Monogram, 1988.

- ‘Ich flog als erster eine untertasse’, Kristall Nr.2, 1956.

- ‘Intercept but don’t shoot’, by Renato Vesco, Adventures Unlimited Press, 1994.

- ‘Interceptarlos sin disparar’, by Renato Vesco, Ediciones 29, 1968.

- ‘Intercept UFO’, by Renato Vesco, Pinnacle Books, 1976.

- ‘Man-Made UFOS 1944-1994’, by Renato Vesco & David Hatcher, Adventures Unlimited Press, 1994.

- ‘German Secret Weapons of World War 2’, by Rudolph Lusar, (Review by Reuters in the Washington Post, 18 February, 1957.

- ‘German Secret Weapons of World War 2’, by Rudolph Lusar, Neville Spearman, 1959.

- ‘Die Deutschen Waffen und Geheimwaffen des 2. Weltkrieges und ihre Weiterentwicklung’, by Rudolph Lusar, J.F. Lehmans Verlag, 1962.

- ‘Fliegende Untertassen, eine Deutsche Erfingdung’, by Rudolph Lusar, Das Neue Zeitalter Nr.9, 1958.

-NASM microfilms R 2750 F 268 and R 3216 F 75.

- ‘Messerschmitt Me 328 Bordjäger’, Wingmasters Nº2.

-‘Flugscheiben über Peenemunde?’ by Leonhard Eckardt & Heiner Gehring, AMUN-Verlag, 2001.

- ‘Die deutschen Flugscheiben-Konstrukteure, by Andreas Epp, Sternentorverlag, DVD, May 1999.

- ‘Die Realität der Flugscheiben’, by Andreas Epp, Michaels Verlag, January 2002.

- ‘Geheimprojekte der Luftwaffe-Band III’, by Dieter Herwig & Heinz Rode, Motorbuch Verlag Stuttgart 2002.

- ‘Die Luftwaffe Projekte der Deutschen Luftrüstung -Band 1‘, by Ingolf Meyer, Kissing 2004.

- ‘German Explosive Ordnance TM9-1985-2’, Departments of the Army and the Air Force, March 1953.

- ‘Aircraft Vibration and Flutter Research in Germany’, US Naval Technical Mission in Europe. BIOS Miscelaneous Report 61. 1945.

- ‘Die Deutsche Luftrüstung 1933-1945 -Band 1 to 4’, by Heinz J. Nowarra, Bernard & Graefe Verlag 1993.

- ‘German Jet Genesis ‘, by David Masters, Jane´s 1982.

- ‘Jet Planes of the Third Reich, the Secret projects Volume One’, by Manfred Griehl, Monogram Aviation Publications 1998.

- ‘Jet Planes of the Third Reich, the Secret projects Volume Two’, by Manfred Griehl, Monogram Aviation Publications 2004.

- ‘German Jet Engine and Gas Turbine Development 1930-1945’, by Antony L.Kay, Airlife 2002.

- ‘Paper Planes of the Third Reich’, Toros Publications 1988.

- ‘German Aircraft New and Projected Type, A.I.2(G) Report Nº 2383’ by H.F. King, January 1946.

- ‘Dragonfly, The Luftwaffe Experimental Triebflügeljäger project’, by David Myhra, Schiffer 2003.

- ‘Secret Messerschmitt Projects by Willy Radinger & Walter Schick’, Schiffer 1996.

- Luftfhart International Nº 9, 10 and 17.

- ‘Flugzeugfahrwerke ‘, by Günter Sengfelder, Motorbuch Verlag Stuttgart 1979.

- ‘Die Deutschen Raketenflugzeuge 1935-1945’, by Joachim Dressel & Manfred Griehl, Motorbuch Verlag Stuttgart 1989.

- Die Deutsche Illustrierte, 1953.

- Welt am Sonntag, 26 April, 1953.

- Flieger Welt Deutscher Aero-Digest, Heft 1/1951.

-Flugzeug 1/2000.

-Flugzeug 2/94.

-Avionrevue 6/1982.

- ‘German Helicopters’ by Heinz J. Nowarra, Schiffer, 1980.

- ‘Helicopters of the Third Reich’, by Steve Coates, Classics Publications Nº 10, 2003.

- ‘Rotorcraft of the Third Reich’ by Ryszard Witkowski, MMP Books, 2007.

- ‘Doblhoff WNF 342’, by Paul Lambermont, Le fanatique de l’Aviation Nº 120.

- ‘Corona and Induced Current Effects’, Tri-Valley Project PEA, SFO/992220016/November 1999.

- ‘The Coanda Story’, by Martin Caidin, Flying Magazine, May 1956.

- ‘Romanian Inventions And Priorities In Aviation’, by Constantin C. Gheorghiu, Ed., Albatros, 1979.

- ‘The hunt for zero point’, by Nick Cook, Century, 2001.

- ‘Le dossier des soucoupes volantes’ by Jacques Lob, Dargaud Ed, 1972.

- ‘Gas Turbine Development-BMW, Junkers, Daimler Benz’, by P.Lloyd, CIOS Report. File Nº XXIV (6). C. 1945.

- ‘Gas Turbine Development by BMW’, by P.R. Price. CIOS Report. File Nº XXIV (30). C. 1945.

- ‘German Submarine Rotary Wing Kite’, by B. Kelley and H.J. Mulvey. CIOS Report. File Nº XXVIII (21). C. 1945.

- ‘Ceskoslovenska Letadla 1918-1945’, by Václav Nemecek, Nase Vojsko Praha, 1983.

- ‘Les étranges creations d’Otto Kauba’, by Otakar Saffek, le Fanatique de l’Aviation Nº 272.

- ‘Skoda-Kauba Flugzeugbau’, by Walter Schroeder, Öfh nachrichten, Sonderheft Nr.23, 1998.

- ‘German Gas Turbine Development During the Period 1939-1945’, by J.W. Adderley, British Intelligence Objectives Sub-Committee Report Nº. 12, 1949.

- ‘Centrifugal Compressors’, by L.J. Cheshire, George Newnes Ltd, 1955.

- http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/helicopters/q0141.shtml

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiller_YH-32_Hornet

- https://www.quora.com/Could-a-helicopter-utilize-a-jet-engine

-https://www.saturdaynightuforia.com/html/articles/articlehtml/taleofthenazisaucer.html

-http://www.ufor.asn.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Real-Flying-Saucers.pdf

...so what do we make out of that?
 

ArmchairSamurai

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German Flying Saucers Bibliography

- ‘Die Realität der Flugscheiben’ by Andreas Epp, Michaels Vertrieb editor, 2002.

- ‘Flugscheiben-Realität oder Mythos: Gespräche mit dem Flugscheiben-Erfinder’, by Andreas Epp, Michaels Vertrieb editor, 2005.

- ‘Die deutschen Waffen und Geheimwaffen des 2. Weltkrieges und ihre Weiterentwicklung’ by Rudolf Lusar, J. F. Lehmann; Edition: 4., stark überarb. u. erw. Aufl. (1962).

- Epp, Joseph Andreas, ‘U.S. Army Intelligence, Record Group 319, Box 186, File Number GE013347’. The National Archives at College Park, College Park, Maryland. - http://www.archives.gov/iwg/declassified-records/rg-319-army-staff/personal-name-files-new.html

- ‘Evaluation Reports (ER), Final Reports (FR) und Overall Reports der British Intelligence Subcommittee, Reports der Combined Intelligence Objectives Subcommittee (C.I.O.S.) und Field Intelligence Agency (F.I.A.T.)’.

- ‘Hitler’s Flying Saucers: A guide to German Flying Discs of the Second World War’ by Henry Stevens, Adventure Unlimited, 2013.

- ‘Flying Saucer Technology’ by Bill Rose, Midland, 2011.

- ‘Secret Projects- Flying Saucer Aircraft’, by Bill Rose & Tony Buttler, Midland, 2006.

- ‘Jet Planes of the Third Reich-The Secret projects-Volume One’, by Manfred Griehl, Monogram, 1998.

- ‘Secret Weapons of the Third Reich’ by Leslie E. Simon, WE, INC., Publishers, 1971.

- ‘Messerschmitt Me 328 Bordjäger’, by Paul Malmassari, Wingmasters Nº 2.

- ‘Der Fliegende Bierdeckel’, by Arthur Sack, Die Deutsche Sportflieger, November 1939.

- ‘Der Kreisflüger AS6 V1’, by Hans Justus Meier, Luftfahrt International 4/79.

- ‘Aktennotizen und Niederschriftender der ATG-Maschinenbau GmbH.’, Leipzig, von 4.2, 3.2, 17.4 und 18.5, 1944.

- ‘Veröffentlichungen zuden Modellen von Arthur Sack’, Der Flieger 11-12/1940.

- ‘Hochwertige Motorflugmodelle’, Der Deutsche Sportflieger, 9/1940.

- ‘Das Buch der Deutschen Luftfahrttechnik’, Bidteil, Mainz, 1970.

- Der Flieger 4/1944.

- Air International, March 1979.

- ‘Neue formen des Starrflügel-Flugzeuges’, by W. Zuerl, Der Flieger 1/1944.

- ‘Dreikomponentenmessungen an einem Kreisflügel mi zwei klappen’, by E. Hildenbrand, Aerodynamische Versuchsanstalt Göttingen, Beritche Nr.40/14/40 vom 3.8.1940 und 41/14/5 vom 21.2.1941.

- ‘Deutsche Kreisflügelflugzeuge’, Flugzeug Profile Nr.23.

- ‘Fliegender Bierdeckel’, by Volker Koos, Flug Revue 3/1994.

- ‘Kreisflügler Arthur Sack AS6’, by Volker Koos, Flug Revue 11/1998.

- ‘Saucers, Swastikas and Psyops’, by Joseph T. Farrell, Adventures Unlimited, 2011.

- France Soir, June 27, 1952.

- ‘Erste Flugscheibe flog 1945 in Prag enthullt speers beauftragter’, by Georg Klein, Welt am Sonntag, April 25, 1953.

- ‘German Discs: UFO in the Third Reich’, Los Angeles Mirror, 24 March, 1950.

- Dortmund Newspaper, Westphalian Overview, 9 July 1947.

- ‘Deutsche Flugkreisel, Gab’s die?’ Luftfahrt International May/June 1975.

- ‘Projekt Flugkreisel’, by Rudolph Schriever, Bremerhavener Zeit entstanden.

- ‘Untertassen-Flieger Combination’, Der Spiegel, 30 March, 1950.

- ‘Flugkreisel Irdisch’, Helm & Welt Nr.14, 2 April, 1950.

- ‘Fliegende Untertassen’, Die 7 Tage Nr.26, June 1952.

- ‘Fliegende Untertasse’, Farb Illustrierte Nr.18, September 1952.

- ‘Fliegende Untertasse in Deutschland erfunden’, Deutsche Illustrierte, S.1350/51.

- ‘Secret Wings of WWII: Nazi Technology and the Allied Arms Race’, by Lance Cole, Pen & Sword Aviation, 2015.

- ‘Das gab’s die fliegende untertasse der deutschen Luftwaffe’, ZB Illustrierte für menschen in atomzeitalter Nr.25, December 1953.

- ‘Wunderwaffen 1945’, Bild am Sonntag, 17 February, 1957.

- ‘Die UFOs, eine deutsche Erfindung’, Das neue Zeitalter Nr.41, October 1957.

- ‘Deutsche Kreisflügelflugzeuge’, by Hans Justus Meier, Flugzeug 2/89.

- ‘Deutsche Geheimwaffen und Wunderwaffen des II. Weltkrieges’, by Christof Friedrich, Samisdat Publishers, Canada.

- ‘Aeronautical Research in Germany: From Lilienthal until Today’, by Ernst Heinrich Hirschel, Springer 2012.

- Henry Coanda Propelling Device Patents 2,157,281/2,131,472/2,108,653 (10 January 1936).

- ‘Applications of the Coanda Effect’, by Imants Reba, Scientific American, June 1966.

- ‘The Coanda Effect’, by R.S. Sproule and S.T. Robinson. CIOS Reports. File Nº IX (1), 1944.

- ‘The Vanishing Paperclips’ by Hans H. Amtmann, Monogram, 1988.

- ‘Ich flog als erster eine untertasse’, Kristall Nr.2, 1956.

- ‘Intercept but don’t shoot’, by Renato Vesco, Adventures Unlimited Press, 1994.

- ‘Interceptarlos sin disparar’, by Renato Vesco, Ediciones 29, 1968.

- ‘Intercept UFO’, by Renato Vesco, Pinnacle Books, 1976.

- ‘Man-Made UFOS 1944-1994’, by Renato Vesco & David Hatcher, Adventures Unlimited Press, 1994.

- ‘German Secret Weapons of World War 2’, by Rudolph Lusar, (Review by Reuters in the Washington Post, 18 February, 1957.

- ‘German Secret Weapons of World War 2’, by Rudolph Lusar, Neville Spearman, 1959.

- ‘Die Deutschen Waffen und Geheimwaffen des 2. Weltkrieges und ihre Weiterentwicklung’, by Rudolph Lusar, J.F. Lehmans Verlag, 1962.

- ‘Fliegende Untertassen, eine Deutsche Erfingdung’, by Rudolph Lusar, Das Neue Zeitalter Nr.9, 1958.

-NASM microfilms R 2750 F 268 and R 3216 F 75.

- ‘Messerschmitt Me 328 Bordjäger’, Wingmasters Nº2.

-‘Flugscheiben über Peenemunde?’ by Leonhard Eckardt & Heiner Gehring, AMUN-Verlag, 2001.

- ‘Die deutschen Flugscheiben-Konstrukteure, by Andreas Epp, Sternentorverlag, DVD, May 1999.

- ‘Die Realität der Flugscheiben’, by Andreas Epp, Michaels Verlag, January 2002.

- ‘Geheimprojekte der Luftwaffe-Band III’, by Dieter Herwig & Heinz Rode, Motorbuch Verlag Stuttgart 2002.

- ‘Die Luftwaffe Projekte der Deutschen Luftrüstung -Band 1‘, by Ingolf Meyer, Kissing 2004.

- ‘German Explosive Ordnance TM9-1985-2’, Departments of the Army and the Air Force, March 1953.

- ‘Aircraft Vibration and Flutter Research in Germany’, US Naval Technical Mission in Europe. BIOS Miscelaneous Report 61. 1945.

- ‘Die Deutsche Luftrüstung 1933-1945 -Band 1 to 4’, by Heinz J. Nowarra, Bernard & Graefe Verlag 1993.

- ‘German Jet Genesis ‘, by David Masters, Jane´s 1982.

- ‘Jet Planes of the Third Reich, the Secret projects Volume One’, by Manfred Griehl, Monogram Aviation Publications 1998.

- ‘Jet Planes of the Third Reich, the Secret projects Volume Two’, by Manfred Griehl, Monogram Aviation Publications 2004.

- ‘German Jet Engine and Gas Turbine Development 1930-1945’, by Antony L.Kay, Airlife 2002.

- ‘Paper Planes of the Third Reich’, Toros Publications 1988.

- ‘German Aircraft New and Projected Type, A.I.2(G) Report Nº 2383’ by H.F. King, January 1946.

- ‘Dragonfly, The Luftwaffe Experimental Triebflügeljäger project’, by David Myhra, Schiffer 2003.

- ‘Secret Messerschmitt Projects by Willy Radinger & Walter Schick’, Schiffer 1996.

- Luftfhart International Nº 9, 10 and 17.

- ‘Flugzeugfahrwerke ‘, by Günter Sengfelder, Motorbuch Verlag Stuttgart 1979.

- ‘Die Deutschen Raketenflugzeuge 1935-1945’, by Joachim Dressel & Manfred Griehl, Motorbuch Verlag Stuttgart 1989.

- Die Deutsche Illustrierte, 1953.

- Welt am Sonntag, 26 April, 1953.

- Flieger Welt Deutscher Aero-Digest, Heft 1/1951.

-Flugzeug 1/2000.

-Flugzeug 2/94.

-Avionrevue 6/1982.

- ‘German Helicopters’ by Heinz J. Nowarra, Schiffer, 1980.

- ‘Helicopters of the Third Reich’, by Steve Coates, Classics Publications Nº 10, 2003.

- ‘Rotorcraft of the Third Reich’ by Ryszard Witkowski, MMP Books, 2007.

- ‘Doblhoff WNF 342’, by Paul Lambermont, Le fanatique de l’Aviation Nº 120.

- ‘Corona and Induced Current Effects’, Tri-Valley Project PEA, SFO/992220016/November 1999.

- ‘The Coanda Story’, by Martin Caidin, Flying Magazine, May 1956.

- ‘Romanian Inventions And Priorities In Aviation’, by Constantin C. Gheorghiu, Ed., Albatros, 1979.

- ‘The hunt for zero point’, by Nick Cook, Century, 2001.

- ‘Le dossier des soucoupes volantes’ by Jacques Lob, Dargaud Ed, 1972.

- ‘Gas Turbine Development-BMW, Junkers, Daimler Benz’, by P.Lloyd, CIOS Report. File Nº XXIV (6). C. 1945.

- ‘Gas Turbine Development by BMW’, by P.R. Price. CIOS Report. File Nº XXIV (30). C. 1945.

- ‘German Submarine Rotary Wing Kite’, by B. Kelley and H.J. Mulvey. CIOS Report. File Nº XXVIII (21). C. 1945.

- ‘Ceskoslovenska Letadla 1918-1945’, by Václav Nemecek, Nase Vojsko Praha, 1983.

- ‘Les étranges creations d’Otto Kauba’, by Otakar Saffek, le Fanatique de l’Aviation Nº 272.

- ‘Skoda-Kauba Flugzeugbau’, by Walter Schroeder, Öfh nachrichten, Sonderheft Nr.23, 1998.

- ‘German Gas Turbine Development During the Period 1939-1945’, by J.W. Adderley, British Intelligence Objectives Sub-Committee Report Nº. 12, 1949.

- ‘Centrifugal Compressors’, by L.J. Cheshire, George Newnes Ltd, 1955.

- http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/helicopters/q0141.shtml

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiller_YH-32_Hornet

- https://www.quora.com/Could-a-helicopter-utilize-a-jet-engine

-https://www.saturdaynightuforia.com/html/articles/articlehtml/taleofthenazisaucer.html

-http://www.ufor.asn.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Real-Flying-Saucers.pdf

...so what do we make out of that?

I figure Justo Miranda is trying to prove something along the lines of "there is more to this than you think". I did say in my original post "fake (until proven otherwise)" and this is his attempt at setting the record straight, by the mere suggestion of a deeper mystery. That is my interpretation of course, not sure if Justo is actually saying just that. I have gone through an picked a few files and searched them. The intel reports are real. I have since added them to my own archive. Whether or not the other "sources" are relevant is up for debate.
 

edwest

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There is no need for debate. This subject has enough relevant documentation. The only thing missing is a willingness to investigate. The desired, and heavily marketed, position is that there was nothing to this concept. I thank Justo Miranda for providing document references that I did not have. That said, any reasonable researcher
should know that there are a significant number of documents that are still classified. The other problem is knowing who was collecting the relevant information so that any queries to archives will have enough information to identify what were called 'unconventional aircraft.' Without the right terms or identifiers and researchers are likely to receive a message like: "We have found no records that are responsive to your request." Among those other organizations are:

Office of Naval Intelligence, who handled the transport of advanced German aircraft.
Counter-Intelligence Corps, who worked with the British T-Force. A published document reveals that one CIC unit was given the task of locating information and interviewing anyone in Germany who may have known about these unconventional aircraft in the immediate post-War period.
Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Forces or SHAEF records. Some Top Secret documents have been published and SHAEF took a special interest in all advanced German weapons and aircraft.
Technical Industrial Intelligence Committee.
 

ArmchairSamurai

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There is no need for debate. This subject has enough relevant documentation. The only thing missing is a willingness to investigate. The desired, and heavily marketed, position is that there was nothing to this concept. I thank Justo Miranda for providing document references that I did not have. That said, any reasonable researcher
should know that there are a significant number of documents that are still classified. The other problem is knowing who was collecting the relevant information so that any queries to archives will have enough information to identify what were called 'unconventional aircraft.' Without the right terms or identifiers and researchers are likely to receive a message like: "We have found no records that are responsive to your request." Among those other organizations are:

Office of Naval Intelligence, who handled the transport of advanced German aircraft.
Counter-Intelligence Corps, who worked with the British T-Force. A published document reveals that one CIC unit was given the task of locating information and interviewing anyone in Germany who may have known about these unconventional aircraft in the immediate post-War period.
Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Forces or SHAEF records. Some Top Secret documents have been published and SHAEF took a special interest in all advanced German weapons and aircraft.
Technical Industrial Intelligence Committee.

Very true. Off-topic, but I still have that problem with reports on German cipher machines. The Schlüssel-Fernschreibmaschine SFM T-43 is the crown jewel of my research, and yet, it evades my grasp because it's buried so deep I cannot find it. The same applies to so much more that we are not even aware of.
 

ArmchairSamurai

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I do not know what you know so you may already have this information about the Siemens T-43.


That is appreciated my friend, but I have already cataloged that. I really want the debriefs and any good photographs, which I have for all machines except the SFM T-43. The following linked document claims that a handful of said machines exist in the States, which is a plus, yet I do not how FOIA's work, nor do I know where to send it, or if it is available, so I am at an impasse. Apologies for getting the thread off-topic. :p

 

RanulfC

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From what I gather it's essentially a jet powered autogryo. The jet exhaust was used to spin up the disk (the edge was weighted to help retain spin once the exhaust flow was cut) for a 'hop' take-off but the disk was unpowered in flight and had a positive angel of attack even during 'level' flight. I don't see it actually working as well as it may have been thought at the time. Quite obviously the materials issues with the jet-deflectors was going to be a major problem as well as the automation that would be needed to keep the thrust(s) stable in all axis while airborne.

Randy
 

Pierre TIAN

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Pierre TIAN replies>
Yes, the Flugelrad moved< I mean it heft at 4 5 m high made some cumbersome hops in a some clumsy right line at Munchen Prien in 1945, not far from August Sack AS4 Argus inverted V8 propelled lenticular wing, that suffered same fate> they crashed lamentably after some hops in the grass.
As AS4 was a little bird with full thrust but few lift surface, BMW Fluggelrad that worked with an upstair downstair doubleflow fitted BMW 008, to prove the feasability of that sort autogyr fantasy.
BMW director Dr Schaaf was so deeply concerned to promote his future double flow 018 and hence turboprop counterproppelled 028, that he sketched the P I P II PIII planes that never went at real blueprints level
Still after WWII Hermann Oestrich German French team moved at Rickenbach, east of Lindau, am Bodensee, to build the ATAR 101 from the 018 blueprints
for the later propulsion of Ouragan, Mystere,Mirage and Rafale, more and more powerfull versions
 

Pierre TIAN

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I wouldnt scrap out too soon autors of Spanish and especially Latin Americam origins. In the oleole manners, they often rely on secure sources, we don t necessarily dispose, here in Europe, and Justo Miranda was quite well informed on Blohm and Voss projects, Daimler Benz, and others. Remember that many nazis flew in Soth America after WWII. Their sons and grandsons, often lead the internatioinal historians on some usefull hints, even if this his mostly end-of -the war daydreams. History is such a gigantic jigsaw...

Pierre Tian
 

Grzesio

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I wouldnt scrap out too soon autors of Spanish and especially Latin Americam origins.
I'm sorry, but Justo made probably the worst thing as far as the German flying discs legend is concerned, publishing his deliberately fake book about German flying saucers, full of precise scale plans and historical data, without a word of warning, these are just his fantasies. And so he legitimized this whole fairy tale, convincing many aviation enthusiasts and modellers, it were historical facts - particularly that scale models based on his plans were marketed soon. :mad:
 

edwest

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Sad that prior to Justo Miranda there was other published material about German flying discs, such as Waffen und Geheimwaffen by Rudolf Lusar. Or recent books like Secret Projects: Flying Saucer Aircraft by Bill Rose and Tony Buttler, or Requiem for a Giant by Palmiro Campagna. Air Technical Intelligence at Wright Field wrote to the commander of the USAAF that it was possible to build an aircraft approximating the shape of the flying disc based on present US knowledge. That was in 1947 and that present US knowledge included interrogation reports.
 
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Grzesio

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O boy, Lusar et consortes...
You know, there's a three volume book by a Polish author, Bartosz Rdułtowski - "Ostatni sekret Wunderwaffe" (The last secret of the Wunderwaffe), over 700 pages of text. He investigates the myth of the German flying saucers just from the 1940s, tracing all published information, article by article, book by book - who wrote what first, who copied from him, who added what, who suddenly made a mistake or alteration repeated after him by subsequent authors, what are the proofs supporting each story - and so on. The conclusion is very simple - the truth of the Wunderwaffe is really disappointing.
 

Antonio

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Dear members,

I think you’ll better try to stop going further with personal and offensive comments in your posts.

Thanks
 

galgot

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Pierre TIAN replies>
Yes, the Flugelrad moved< I mean it heft at 4 5 m high made some cumbersome hops in a some clumsy right line at Munchen Prien in 1945, not far from August Sack AS4 Argus inverted V8 propelled lenticular wing, that suffered same fate> they crashed lamentably after some hops in the grass.
As AS4 was a little bird with full thrust but few lift surface, BMW Fluggelrad that worked with an upstair downstair doubleflow fitted BMW 008, to prove the feasability of that sort autogyr fantasy.
BMW director Dr Schaaf was so deeply concerned to promote his future double flow 018 and hence turboprop counterproppelled 028, that he sketched the P I P II PIII planes that never went at real blueprints level
Still after WWII Hermann Oestrich German French team moved at Rickenbach, east of Lindau, am Bodensee, to build the ATAR 101 from the 018 blueprints
for the later propulsion of Ouragan, Mystere,Mirage and Rafale, more and more powerfull versions
Mmh... sorry, from Atar 101 to ATAR 09 yes, you can trace origin to Oestrich and Atelier technique aéronautique de Rickenbach (ATAR), with ATAR 09K50 been very last of a long evolution. But the M88 powering Rafale has nothing to do with ATAR apart from being a mil jet engine and being made by the same manufacturer. Same with the M53 powering M2000 and 4000, no connection with ATAR.
 

Pierre TIAN

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I wouldnt scrap out too soon autors of Spanish and especially Latin Americam origins.
I'm sorry, but Justo made probably the worst thing as far as the German flying discs legend is concerned, publishing his deliberately fake book about German flying saucers, full of precise scale plans and historical data, without a word of warning, these are just his fantasies. And so he legitimized this whole fairy tale, convincing many aviation enthusiasts and modellers, it were historical facts - particularly that scale models based on his plans were marketed soon. :mad:
OK, you are right on that point: you have to be very carefull about literatures on behalf Projecys, being germans, japanese, american, etc.
What I do, it s crossing the sources. Sure that force you to dive in a lot of different autors and different languages. So , be ready for Turkish,Russian, Czech, Polish... That s why some well-known German historian did me advice to write in English, what I did cum the version in french, because it had to be sold in Northern France
The Rolf Lussar example was the first fantasy in the fifties, when the 10 years ban was over. It was explainable by the 1955 German context. Lussar was a plain Luftwaffe ground officer that found the Der Spiegel - way to make some money telling tales. Leslie Simon "German WWII research" book, was there to sort the right from the wrong
But yet in the seventies, the After the Battle british review, did mix the fw 1000X1000X1000 project with existing late german realisations. William Green book 2 Warplanes of the IIId Reich, was some times on the verge of fiction, when Henschel dive-bomber later was revealed like an artist view, showing the real craft not even fitted with its BMW 008.
Can we speak about fantasy , when David Myhra pictures show mock-ups of FW 229 or Oberammergau "Attrappen" of some Messerschmitt 3th generation fighters ? Is a windtunnel Junkers EF128 or EF 132 still of fantasy domain or the first step towrds reality? Many of these projects were to be shown to the Allies, as mock-up or blueprints. People like Richard Vogt, Waldemar Voigt, Hans Mülthopp, ... did asset their post WWII career like that. In the ruins of Messerschmitt Augburg factories, engineers and designers were still designing dressed in heavy winter coats, waitinf for the GIs and Allied officers to show their fifthy years advance ( dixit the British invasion forces)
 

mekon

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Hi all, a quick question regarding Justo's Flügelrad III colour art in the first post - what (Russian?) publication has this been scanned from? It's shared in various places online, without accreditation, and I've always wondered..thanks
 

Raketyr

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Hi all, a quick question regarding Justo's Flügelrad III colour art in the first post - what (Russian?) publication has this been scanned from? It's shared in various places online, without accreditation, and I've always wondered..thanks

Техника молодёжи 2000-12​

 

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