ATF: speculation and disinformation from the 1980s

flateric

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Interesting stills of scientist looking at what everybody (mostly, Soviet spies) should consider Lockheed ATF from Lockheed promo documentary, showing how far they went into not-showing how their real ATF would look like.

Third picture (ATF manufacturing) remembers me Khruchev's phrase of making rockets on conveyor like a sausages
 

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flateric

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Sasha, of course I know these artist's impressions (adding more Lockheed art studio masterpieces now):) I just wanted to show how far could cover-up attempts go in trying to steal the real thing shape. I often think of this regarding I-21/PAK-FA.
 

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Orionblamblam

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Keep in mind... this particular "ATF" was deisgned and painted by Syd mead, the industrial designer who gave the world the "spinner."

BR.Spinners.jpg


So, yes, it's artistic, but it didn't have much to do with reality.

Which was the point.
 

flateric

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Orionblamblam said:
Keep in mind... this particular "ATF" was deisgned and painted by Syd mead, the industrial designer who gave the world the "spinner."

Blade Runner...oh, my favourite sci-fi movie...so, Syd Mead was hired by Lockheed to foolish our spies?

Orionblamblam said:
So, yes, it's artistic, but it didn't have much to do with reality.

Which was the point.

Sometimes it's strikingly remembers me our Frankenstain-inspired MiG 1.44...which also didn't have much to do with reality.
 

flateric

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Where are damn canards?
 

Orionblamblam

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flateric said:
Syd Mead was hired by Lockheed to foolish our spies?

Seems that way. They made no secret that he was doign the art at the time, though... perhaps he simply took some generic fighter layout and made it realistic.


Sometimes it's strikingly remembers me our Frankenstain-inspired MiG 1.44...which also didn't have much to do with reality.

The best "phony designs" are the ones that make the other side spend lots of time, money and effort trying to copy it.
 

Skybolt

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Ummmh, has anyone tried to use that ATF design to do some simulation model for X-Plane ? ;)
 

flateric

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http://www.sydmead.com/v/01/bookstore/viewer/series2.html
 

hesham

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My dears,

a surprise to all member,
I have a really picture to dear (paralay) artistic
picture of Lockheed ATF project of 1986,it was shoted at its
lair,and the source mentioned it was actually built.

the artistic picture from paralay which I mean it:
 

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flateric

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Dear Hesham, I don't know if you have read previous posts, but it was clearly explained that this is was graphics concept of ATF having nothing common to reality, made by Syd Mead for Lockheed. Thread purpose was to show that Lockheed even make a wind tunnel model to make everybody think that their ATF would look like this.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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I believe Lockheed's disinformation effort was primarily aimed not at the Soviets but at other US aircraft companies.
 

Sundog

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I don't think any of this had to do with dis-information and simply to do with the fact that the ATF designs were classified at the time. Anyone with a back ground in aeronautics could immediately recognize that the canard placement just about embedded on the spine of the Syd Mead conception wasn't feasible and was just an artist's concept of an "Advanced" fighter.
 

flateric

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I must agree, while I should mention that Northrop concept drawing published was not far away from the real stuff.
 

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hesham

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My dears,

you still don't believe me,I rebeat I have a really
picture to this aircraft,but the book was not
popular.and I think it was not a full scale mock-up.
 

flateric

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What the title of the book and what do you think it was?
 

hesham

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The book,

Warplanes of the 21st century, by Bill Yenne.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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I've seen the Bill Yenne book, it has a number of photographs of Erik Simonsen models. Perhaps one of those is your picture?
 

hesham

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Yes my dear overscan,

and the picture was shown a little different from artist picture,such as
the really aircraft had a longer canard than the drawing,but the book
has also a picture to a fighter derivative from Rockwell HIMAT,and I
don't know it was a really aircraft built or a macket trick,because it was
shooted in the sky.
 

flateric

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Stills from fresh German N24 channel stealth-related documentary. Stuff is claimed to be - of course - F-22. Interesting if this a pure speculation or another Lockheed's(?) desinformation CGIs (films is loaded of LM computer graphics of REAL F-22 from Lockheed, and appearence of this images is seems interesting). My German language knowledge is less than poor.
 

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hs1216

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It looks a awful lot like the Lockheed ASTOVL concept designs.
 

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What came to my mind now is the speculation, if Russia is currently doing the same with the PAK FA. I mean model revealed by Paralay that looks like a warped F-22. Isnt it made only for disinformation campaign to cover real look of the airplane?

Thanks to God, his web moved to a much faster server and has a new adress http://www.paralay.com Take a look!
 

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Merv_P

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I found this on the DVIC site, on the first page of a search on 'ATF'. I haven't seen this design before; does anyone have more information?
 

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LowObservable

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It was an entirely notional concept from the USAF system project office (SPO) - around 1984-85, certainly well before downselect. Someone felt that there should be some kind of official depiction of ATF. By this time the SPO pretty much knew where the competitors were headed and were careful to draw something that did not look like any of them.
 

sferrin

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Merv_P said:
I found this on the DVIC site, on the first page of a search on 'ATF'. I haven't seen this design before; does anyone have more information?

That brings back memories. I remember seeing that back then and had completely forgot about it. There was another that somewhat resembled LoFLYTE with twin engines, ventral intakes with half-cones, and was an off-white color with the aircraft flying towards the camera.
 

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I remember seeing a design, I think it was on the cover of a Science magazine (maybe even named "Science"?) back around the mid to late 80's, and it was the twin engine delta wing canard design that Lockheed Martin was showing that sort of reminded me of a more blended MiG-1.42. It was coming straight at you while going almost straight at you. It was very good artwork.

I also remember seeing that picture posted at the beginning and wondering what was going on with the inlets. They reminded me of the head of an electric shaver. :D I would swear on the version I saw, black and white, it looked like there were grills over the inlets. It might have just been poor printing.
 

flateric

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This one, indeed. This is Lockheed's artist's concept ca.1985.
 

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Sundog

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Yes that's the design, and the cover of Wings is similar to the other cover I saw, but the other cover was still a different image. I actually have it buried in a box somewhere, either in the house attic or the garage attic. Thanks for posting those, though, because I always thought it was still a nice looking design.
 

flateric

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Hmm, may be this one?
 

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sferrin

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Not the plane but. . . (From '86. I'd say they didn't quite get there with the F-22 :p )
 

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Sundog

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It seems they were off by one generation, as a lot of what is shown there appears to very much be what is in the F-35 cockpit.
 

flateric

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Original NATF pin from Lockheed team
 

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airman

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hesham said:
My dears,

a surprise to all member,
I have a really picture to dear (paralay) artistic
picture of Lockheed ATF project of 1986,it was shoted at its
lair,and the source mentioned it was actually built.

the artistic picture from paralay which I mean it:
project that had inspired this game :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F29_Retaliator :eek: :eek:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qwJmlWdmP2M
 

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sferrin

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Spotted the picture on the right yesterday. Don't know if that's an available mode or a photoshop job though. Now all they need are the 3D overlay graphics of SAM envelopes etc. and they'll be set (apparently touch screens suck in the cockpit as bad as in real life).
 

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