Arcologies and the 21st Century

Status
Not open for further replies.

Grey Havoc

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
9 October 2009
Messages
19,748
Reaction score
10,200
Since many of us were supposed to be living in these things by now, I thought it would be appropriate to have a general thread on them here. I'll start it off with a few projects from within the last five years or so:

Try2004.gif


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shimizu_Mega-City_Pyramid
http://www.shimz.co.jp/english/theme/dream/try.html

http://www.tdrinc.com/ultima.html
http://www.dvice.com/archives/2008/04/ultima-tower-is.php

http://www.dvice.com/archives/2008/08/the-dubai-ziggu.php
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJNCeSFMvNI&feature=player_detailpage

http://www.dvice.com/archives/2009/08/gigantic-arcolo.php
http://www.yankodesign.com/2009/08/17/heavenly-abode/

http://www.dvice.com/archives/2010/01/spectacular-flo.php
http://www.yankodesign.com/2010/01/14/boston-gets-a-boa/


And here's a classic Sci-Fi clip to close up with:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaR5wVL9x2I
 
Good lord, that's two threads on arcologies started up....

As I said in reponse to the last one, I spent some time working out the details of one for a novel I'm writing. Basically, doughnut-shaped with the central area (a ground-floor park) given a lightweight transparent roof. Each floor level three stories high (the standard "ceiling" height) with structures fitted within this, and with additional one-storey levels in between for all the services. Occasional large squares of double or triple height with glass walls to the outside.

The idea is to provide a pleasant, spacious environment with everything within walking distance including the outside (surrounded by recreation space); very low energy use, etc.

It's been a while since I worked on it but IIRC I could get c.250,000 people in a building around 400m in diameter.
 
Grey Havoc said:
Since many of us were supposed to be living in these things by now


You mean you're not??? ;D
 
I'm a bit old fashioned, I'm afraid. ;D
 
From 2003, an Extreme Engineering episode on the Shimizu Mega-City Pyramid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu5b9rBdbVU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_jSVSXt4KA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zGLBNAXjNY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yi2gldK8QcU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-3T_CU6e4Y
 
Is it me, or have the plans become less ambitious than those illustrated in that 1969 M.I.T. book Arcology The City In The Image Of Man? A simple representation of the Empire State Building was used for scale comparison in many of the drawings and let me tell you, those things would have been huge.

When I got my copy (1970, I believe) I thought many of the designs were cool and would be fun to live in. Now, I feel that those places could easily become dystopias.
 
The Artist said:
Now, I feel that those places could easily become dystopias.

Reminds me of "Concrete Island" by J.G. Ballard
 
The Artist said:
When I got my copy (1970, I believe) I thought many of the designs were cool and would be fun to live in. Now, I feel that those places could easily become dystopias.

Some tower blocks in the UK provide among the worst living environments in the country. Others contain the most expensive and upmarket accommodation money can buy (think: Shard). Many old and formerly horrible tower blocks have been restored and put to good use, and are now in demand from people who want to live there. It all depends on the design and management of the buildings and their facilities.
 
Tony Williams said:
The idea is to provide a pleasant, spacious environment with everything within walking distance including the outside (surrounded by recreation space); very low energy use, etc.

Yeah, that's always the sort of goal for planned urban densepacks like this, and it just never seems to work. And until governments start reprogramming human nature ("Brave New World"), it never *will* work.

Consider "The Projects." The best intentions just don't work if they are based on flawed assumptions. And packing *vast* numbers of people into a space that they cannot modify and most likely do not own is never going to work. If you do not own your apartment, you do not give a damn about maintaining it, from appearance to functionality to safety. Renting is thus a potentially dubious proposition. Now, if you are renting exclusively to businesses or the well-off, you'll do ok; even without ownership, those will care about maintaining appearance *and* maintaining order. But if you are renting to *vast* numbers of the poor, who can pick up and split on virtually a moments notice and not care what they leave behind... you'll have urban blight in a hurry. Pruit-Igoe. Detroit. Cidade de Deus. Cabrini-Green. The UN building.

And while arcologies always seem to project a gleaming future full of happy inmates, you cannot have a city-sized urban populace without a city-sized group of malcontents, addicts, criminals and people just down on their luck. Arcologies will *have* to be tightly-controlled police states.

There are definite similarities between arcologies and space colonies, of course, and this bodes ill for space colonies. But space colonies have one clear advantage: they border on infinity. Space colonies can build more space colonies, essentially forever; someone in a space colony can *leave.* But once arcologies get to a certain point, there is nowhere they can grow to. Sure, they'll try to cover the entire planet, like Trantor or Coruscant, but the ecosystem will collapse long before then. The way that arcologies will separate their inmates from the natural world - the way that modern urban metropoli separate the poor unfortunates stuck in them from nature - will lead to Very Bad Things. Millions of people who have never seen the night sky. Millions who do not know forests or plains or seas or creeks apart from over crowded, over developed caricatures. Millions of people whose idea of "travel" is to spend the bulk of their lives within a very tight geographical volume, with occasional "travel" on fixed routes such as trains or jetliners, going to planned destinations of equivalent levels of artificial development. Millions of people who have been *forced* to become dependent upon government services for even the most basic functions of life are the people who will vote to maintain governments that want to *provide* more and more, and will give up more and more of their rights. See: New York City/Bloomberg.

Bah.
BAH!!

And then some jackass shows up with a small tactical nuclear device or a virus.

Anyone want to know the inevitable fate of people in an arcology, read about Universe 25.
 
Let face it, those thing gonna not be build in near future!

One reason is
the huge cost for 4000 meter high X-seed 4000, would billions in R&D and Building a Mountain size habitat.

the other is, would wanna life in one of these ?

they try allot of experiments to change society by urbanization
the failure are world know:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7RwwkNzF68
large urban housing project Pruitt–Igoe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02x8EHXPfB0
Dying Detroit,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOXmrVR00RI
Hitler megalomaniac buildings

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qYFKLDwrvU
Fordlandria

the only way i see that those arcologies are build, is if the world it hit by mass extinction event
and survivors have be put in high density Populate buildings...
 
Michel Van said:
the other is, would wanna life in one of these ?

I'm sure many would, when it's new and shiny. But within the first generation, it'll start turning into a cesspit; it will require a true police state to keep it together.


the only way i see that those arcologies are build, is if the world it hit by mass extinction event
and survivors have be put in high density Populate buildings...

Yes. And in that case, a police state would be tolerated. But who would tolerate a police state that keeps you cooped up in a living hell, when you could *leave?*

As the saying goes about New York City, "If you can make it there, you can make it anywhere... but if you can make it there, why would you want to be in New York City?"
 
XP67_Moonbat said:
Scott forgot Mega-City One.

Actually, no. But why bring up horrific sci-fi dystopias when there are *real* dystopias?

Arcologies just give me the screamin' willies. Not so much for what they are and what they would inevitably become, but because so many people behind such efforts think that the last five thousand years of human historical precedent will magically go away on nothing more than their say-so.

Again, space colonies would inevitably fall victim to the same problems. But a space colony is merely a stepping stone; when it goes to hell, you leave. But arcologies? Those are *end* *points.* Once you start building those things, there's nowhere left to go. The sort of government that would permit or mandate the sort of police state an arcology would require would be the sort of government that would ban alternatives such as space colonization (the brain & talent drain to space would be the ruin of arcologies, just that much faster). And thus... "Blade Runner" would transition quickly to "The Marching Morons."
 
I contend that the best fiction (and some of the rest) deals with our truths, so I have no problem with bringing fictional examples into this discussion - as long as they are identified as fictional. While the movies Brazil and The Fifth Element were not set in Arcologies, the nightmare technologies depicted in those films would not be far from what would be needed to provide what would pass as habitable living spaces in an Arcology. When the stuff behind the walls starts to fail. where does the mess go?
 
That are two cruise ships, were the Electrical system failed and 4243 people were with absence of air-conditioning and fresh water, while the toilets not work or were overflowing the decks.
for the Carnival Triumph the Passengers had to live this ordeal for a week until the ship was tug into a harbor.

Ohh that would be recepie for Civilwar, if this happen on this Utopia: Freedom Ship
Freedom_Ship_side_view.jpg

A floating city project for 50000 residents, with a cheap prize for a Utopia: only USD 11 billion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_ship

that could happen also on Space colony, if it's Wast processing plant fails or worst there ecology collapse !
but here, have the people a chance to left the colony or life in this "Shit" for rest there existence ?

i forgot the Carnival Triumph and the Vision of the Seas are from "Carnival Corporation & plc" that gave us this:
800px-Collision_of_Costa_Concordia_27.jpg

the Costa Concordia disaster.
 
Interesting, but I think this should be moved to The Bar. Alternative History & Future Speculation topic is intended to still be related to core forum subject of projects, aerospace & military technology.
 
Tony Williams said:
The Artist said:
When I got my copy (1970, I believe) I thought many of the designs were cool and would be fun to live in. Now, I feel that those places could easily become dystopias.

Some tower blocks in the UK provide among the worst living environments in the country. Others contain the most expensive and upmarket accommodation money can buy (think: Shard). Many old and formerly horrible tower blocks have been restored and put to good use, and are now in demand from people who want to live there. It all depends on the design and management of the buildings and their facilities.

I had to take some time to think about this one. What is the down side of those upmarket accommodation utopias? Who maintains those conditions? (If someone is spending a small - or large - fortune to live there, he or she is not going to want DIY repairs.) Where do the workers, the repairmen and the cleaners, live? Today, they live in other locations but in the Arcology they would live on the lower levels - the levels where the mess goes when the things in the walls fail. Capitalist, or Communist, it makes no difference. It's all Tinkle Down Economics. The people at the top drink Champagne and everyone else gets tinkled on.

There will be class distinction. There will be lords and surfs as in feudal times, or, if you want something newer, think of the relationship between owners and workers in American company towns. On top of that, there will be the gangs and the local district politics (Probably crooked) then the law enforcement that will seem to be there to protect the upper levels from everyone else. As Scott has pointed out, people (as a mass society) are not going to change just because someone offers a "new" way to live.

On the comparisons to cruise ships and space colonies. (I'm going into fiction here.) Let's consider approximately 35000 people living on 35 ships. (I think I remember these numbers right for the last few episodes.) I'll go with the easy average of 1000 per ship even though some ships in the fleet were too small for that number and some were larger. That's 1000 people living,sweating, eating, farting, passing wastes, puking, dying and decomposing within each closed environment. Battlestar Galactica was only able to suggest what conditions would be like on those ships. On today's ocean going cruise ships, at least the passengers could go up on deck to get some fresh air. They couldn't do that on the ships in BSG. When the systems start to fail in one of our future 50,000 resident space colonies, they will know first hand what the fictional life was like for members of the Rag-Tag-Fleet. Taking this back to the Arcologies, how long will it take until conditions in the lower (below ground) or innermost sections, the less desirable districts, become just as bad?

Let's face it. Arcologies can only work if their residents (inmates) are people who's social and emotional outlook are geared toward a hive mentality. People may act like flocks of sheep, but that is nowhere near the required hive mentality.
 
The Artist said:
There will be class distinction.

There will also be the small matter of surface area.

One of the supposed selling points of an arcology is energy efficiency. This is possible because the arcology is a closed ecosystem with reduced surface area: a city the size of London, say, packed into a cube, sphere or pyramid with *vastly* less surface area than all those apartment block and houses and whatnot. Maintaining a uniform comfortable temperature would be *far* cheaper in an arcology.

But...

With most cities today, most people live somewhere with at least one window. I expect that only a relative few live in apartments fully embedded within large buildings, with no access to the outside. But in an arcology, very few people would actually have a window or a balcony. Handwaving some math... assume a cube arcology, 1 km on a side (excessive, but go with me here). Assume that every home within was 10 meters on a side, and forget about roads and such for the moment. Only the outermost layer of homes could have windows or balconies. That would be about 400 homes... 100 on each side. But the 1 sq. km cross section could contain ten *thousand* homes. So... 4% or so of the homes could have windows. Not just anybody could or would get them; they would very likely cost substantially more than the interior homes. *They* could get fresh air. *They* wouldn't have to breathe air filtered through a million other pairs of lungs.

The social order in an arcology wouldn't be just top to bottom, but also inside to outside.


Let's face it. Arcologies can only work if their residents (inmates) are people who's social and emotional outlook are geared toward a hive mentality.

There may well be another way. A few months back I read the 1909 sci-fi story "The Machine Stops." This story features an underground arcology, with people more or less locked in individual cells. Why don't the inmates see this as hell? Because they spend their days surfing the web and Skyping and chatting on Facebook. No, really. Nearly a century ago, E.M. Forster foresaw all this, and the effect it would have on people. The names are different, of course, but the end result is the same. And with people plugged into the Machine, they are satisfied staying in small locked-off cells. They can actually get up and leave, but few ever do.
 
Orionblamblam said:
The Artist said:
Let's face it. Arcologies can only work if their residents (inmates) are people who's social and emotional outlook are geared toward a hive mentality.

There may well be another way. A few months back I read the 1909 sci-fi story "The Machine Stops." This story features an underground arcology, with people more or less locked in individual cells. Why don't the inmates see this as hell? Because they spend their days surfing the web and Skyping and chatting on Facebook. No, really. Nearly a century ago, E.M. Forster foresaw all this, and the effect it would have on people. The names are different, of course, but the end result is the same. And with people plugged into the Machine, they are satisfied staying in small locked-off cells. They can actually get up and leave, but few ever do.

That might seem sustainable at first, but it can hardly be called a thriving healthy city complex. Shades of The Matrix here. More than Matrix, just the writeup on this story at your link has me thinking of Justin Cord's visit to the V.R. Museum in The Unincorporated Man by Dani Kollin and Eytan Kollin. That chapter is a true horror story of where such technology can take us. Think of all those addicted to the Idiot Box (TV) then make it wallow in your own filth kind of worse.

Edit. I still haven't learned how to snip replies here. I hope I have the comments with the right members now.
 
The Artist said:
That might seem sustainable at first, but it can hardly be called a thriving healthy city complex.

Neither is Detroit, but it exists nonetheless.

The most practical purpose of an arcology is survival against some external horror (ecological collapse, radiation/plague/chemical warfare, whatever). In which case the function would be to simply warehouse a chunk of humanity for later use. It would be horrific, but understandable. But outside of the "ark" function of an arcology, the prime purpose of such a thing would be to concentrate populations for more effective control. There are always people who think that all the other people need to be told what to do, how to live, what to think; an arcology would be a way to accomplish the sort of social order needed.
 
Wow! Considering an arcology has never been built, there's an awful lot of absolute certainty that they could never work. There are also an awful lot of negative assumptions about what they would be like, in terms of physical layout, which I do not share.

Let me go into more detail about the one I "designed" to explain what I meant. The scenario is almost a century into the future, when changing climate and sea levels has led to lots of displaced people trying to survive in a harsher environment. So arcologies, like my Torus, have been built to accommodate them.

I've dug out the notes I made - here are some extracts concerning the design of the ring-shaped building:

"12 levels (Level Zero to Level 11), floor to ceiling height three stories in streets,
One storey below each level for services and deliveries.

Central "Ring Road"; ring-shaped boulevard runs through centre of building on each level, 25m wide. 620m diameter, so 1.88 km long (c. 24 minutes to walk all the way round at 3 mph – anywhere within reach in about 15 min.)

Series of radial fire walls with only single-storey and narrower parts of Ring Road closable by automatic fire doors divide Torus into 12 "Sectors", which with 12 Levels makes 144 "Slices" which can all be sealed off from each other. Alternate Slices (vertically) have plazas, so 72 in all. Each Slice has c. 2,000 people

Separate ventilation systems for each slice; air drawn in from central park area, exhausted via tall chimneys (12 stacks, one for each Sector).

Lifts, automatic escalators and stairs between Levels. Arches on Ring Road between sectors (fire doors).

Energy from solar cells across most of glazed exterior (plus flexible outer skin linked to piezoelectric generators to produce electricity from wind pressure?). A chain of wind turbines in close proximity to Torus. Exercise machines in gyms coupled to generators (get fit and help the economy!) plus well-trodden areas of floor/running tracks have piezo-electric elements.

Heat from industrial processes used in space heating system, heat extracted from exhaust air and used to warm central space from which air is drawn for ventilation. Air conditioned with constant gentle breezes in circulation spaces, diurnal temperature fluctuations (20 degrees day, 15 night)

Full-spectrum lights brighten and dim by the clock – never entirely dark at night.

remote controlled fire hoses in ceilings of circulation/public spaces

rainwater collected from roof; stored in aquifer if not needed

Flat "Roof" of Torus is under cover of transparent roof, is used as a market garden and orchard of 45 hectares. Residents go up to the Roof to pick fresh fruit and vegetables and pay for them when they need them. Hives for pollination and honey

Calculation of dimensions: 250,000 people at 25 m2 residential area = 6.25m m2 floor area (3 storey = 2.1m m2 floor area) Add the same again for work, social, educational, sports areas = 4.2m m2. Add 30% for circulation and open space = 5.5m m2. on 12 levels = 450,000m2 per floor. Area of central space required: diameter 400m = 125,000 m2. Therefore area of ground take = 450,000 + 125,000 = 575,000 m2 = 850 m diam circle, so building is 225m thick. Total height 13m per Level = 156m high.

Central space "the Park" under inflatable-type transparent roof over entire building; 400m diameter = 12.5 hectares; arboretum, adventure playground (Go Ape), well-stocked lake, aviary, zoo (domestic animals – no pets allowed in Torus), walks and flower gardens, seating and refreshment booths. Long enclosed transparent slides from upper levels down to Park. Only place can make a noise! Cafes surrounding the Park at Level 1. Park has uneven ground – rocky outcrops

Sports facilities at Level Zero; swimming, athletics, games courts etc. Cycle track, running track and swimming track around the outside of Park (1250m long).

Large plazas cutting through two levels on alternate (even-numbered) Levels; full-height windows overlooking countryside, "open-air" cafes. View into plazas from level above (more cafes)
Smaller squares on alternate (odd-numbered) Levels, only 3 stories high, overlook Park

Different styles of buildings in different parts of Torus; reflect different parts of world (e.g. style of long-lost Venice – without the water!). Side-streets off Ring Road are c. 100m long and 10m wide. Residences ("homes") from studio apartments for singles, 1 bed for couples and larger (town houses) for families or shared (25m2 per person, then 10m2 per child). Have one-way glass windows for privacy. Railings keep people a distance away from ground floor windows. Homes shielded against scanning. Lightweight synthetic materials for external+internal walls but advanced sound insulation used.

Home buildings built to back on to work spaces which don't have windows – reduces the number of streets needed

Homes overlooking central space most costly. Those overlooking outside have double-skin, but windows only available in northern quadrant (Sectors 11,12,1) where no PV cells on outside (costly homes)

Torus an independent corporation, all employees have shares and get annual payout. Income for Torus from rents for residential and commercial space, charges for water and power use, selling surplus power and produce to surrounding area, income tax on residents (proportion taken, rest transferred to government).

Rents for bases determined by floor area, aspect and location. Least popular areas on Level 1 occupied by incomers (functional design); can apply for better locations when they come up.

Work spaces also rented; used where teams need to work together.

Multiple use of spaces; college and school rooms available outside teaching hours – not permanently assigned to any use.

Basement: warehousing, industrial processes, recycling, water recovery, triple CC system and command and control centres, plus maglev station and garaging of electric ATVs.

Multiple recycling chutes; everything recycled or processed; sewage processed for market garden;
bottles returned.

Quick access to outside: parkland and sports fields and golf courses surrounding Torus, grazing land beyond. Horse riding, cycle racks, running areas outside.

Intercity transport by maglev train with underground station, leaving Torus via tunnels."

Please note the emphasis on rapid access to external recreation space (probably better than most people enjoy in urban areas today). Also, as far as renting rather than the UK/USA fetish for buying housing: renting is the norm in many places in Europe, e.g. Germany. I haven't noticed any lower standards of maintaining the environment as a result.
 
Orionblamblam said:
Handwaving some math...

Interesting, but maybe too simplified. Take a look at really old high rise apartments, c.1900. Nobody had efficient artificial air circulation or air conditioning back then, so large buildings were built with air passages. Instead of a simple cube or rectangular prism, buildings had ins and outs. Result: maybe not full volumetric efficiency of a cubical building, but everybody had a window. Most of the windows looked out on to an airspace a few metres wide, with a brick wall full of windows on the other side. 100 years ago architects could lay out the floor plans and window locations to give at least a bit of privacy in such a situation. Lots of these buildings are still in use in North America and Europe today. I agree it is not as nice as a home in the suburbs, but people have made it work. And yes, the few suites that have a real view have a higher rent, but that helps drive the efficiencies of the free market system. You want a better view? Then work harder.

This is a very interesting thread, and I think we need to be having these discussions now. As some have pointed out, something like an arcology will probably only happen as a last resort, but we could be at that situation in a few decades.

Added in edit: take this floor plan, repeat as necessary:
6a00d8341c67ce53ef013488bf8ba4970c-500wi.jpg
 
Tony Williams said:
Wow! Considering an arcology has never been built, there's an awful lot of absolute certainty that they could never work.

Note that I said they *could* work. Just need to tinker with humanity first.

Energy from solar cells across most of glazed exterior... A chain of wind turbines in close proximity to Torus.


Plus a fusion reactor to provide the bulk of the power? Unless your inmates live an extremely power-limited life - not unlikely given that they are being warehoused against an environment that has turned all algore on 'em - I think you'll find that PV arrays and wind turbines just won't be enough.

no pets allowed in Torus

Screw *that* noise.

Long enclosed transparent slides from upper levels down to Park. Only place can make a noise!

So you *will* be reprogramming human nature. or you will be brutalising children and especially adolescents. Gags over their mouths? Sort of a Harrison Bergeron sort of thing?

Sports facilities at Level Zero; swimming, athletics, games courts etc. Cycle track, running track and swimming track around the outside of Park (1250m long).

Gun range?



Torus an independent corporation, all employees have shares and get annual payout. Income for Torus from rents for residential and commercial space, charges for water and power use, selling surplus power and produce to surrounding area, income tax on residents (proportion taken, rest transferred to government). [/quote

So... 100% effective tax rates? The inmates are slaves to the Torus?

Also, as far as renting rather than the UK/USA fetish for buying housing: renting is the norm in many places in Europe, e.g. Germany. I haven't noticed any lower standards of maintaining the environment as a result.

Really.
 
Bill Walker said:
And yes, the few suites that have a real view have a higher rent, but that helps drive the efficiencies of the free market system. You want a better view? Then work harder.

Work harder *why*? Arcologies are zero sum games, and cannot work under free market systems. Worker harder, earn more... and find that there are no available homes with windows. They're all full. In order for you to get a bigger home, you cannot build on an addition, cannot add a story, cannot knock the place down and build new on the same plot of land, cannot buy an empty plot of land and build a bigger, better house. Your only option is to take an *existing* home. Maybe someone is willing to sell. Maybe not. If all the homes are rented, the only way for you to get a better apartment is if someone in such an apartment dies or undergoes economic collapse so that they need to move to cheaper digs... or you go to the landlord and offer to pay more per month than the current tennants. Yeah, that'll work out great.

Bonus: strict population controls. Who gets to have how many babies, and who determines, and who enforces... how? An arcology designed for 1,000,000 may seem pretty spacious in the early days with 250,000. But with births & immigration, in five years it'll be 500,000. In another ten years it'll be 1,000,000. What then? "Make Room, Make Room!"


As some have pointed out, something like an arcology will probably only happen as a last resort, but we could be at that situation in a few decades.


Expecting a cometary impact & subsequent ice age, or a biogenetic plague? Not sure what else could make arcologies necessary in a few decades.

Added in edit: take this floor plan, repeat as necessary:

Like so? Looks frakin' awful to me.
 

Attachments

  • arrgh.jpg
    arrgh.jpg
    379.1 KB · Views: 85
Expecting a cometary impact & subsequent ice age, or a biogenetic plague?

You said it yourself, OBB. If an arcology is a zero sum game, so is a finite planet eventually. It is just a matter of time.

If you can't buy a bigger/better room, you could consider moving out. As long as you have someplace better to move to. If not, you put up with you have. Which sums up the situation of a lot of people in this world already.
 
Bill Walker said:
Expecting a cometary impact & subsequent ice age, or a biogenetic plague?

You said it yourself, OBB. If an arcology is a zero sum game, so is a finite planet eventually. It is just a matter of time.


A matter of a *lot* of time. Population growth is slowing; last I heard expectations are that planetary population will top out around 9 or 10 billion. That's a lot, but only a small fraction more than the current 7 billion. We're not going to run out of building room anytime soon.

If you can't buy a bigger/better room, you could consider moving out.

Ah, but would they let you? An arcology would have to be a police state. Police states tend to not be overly thrilled with their better-performing inhabitants wanting to leave.
 
UGLY
index.php

don't forget this has to goes also into the third dimension !


In Germany some Architecture critics labels those compact Arcologies as "chicken battery cages" for humans
 
Orionblamblam said:
Population growth is slowing; last I heard expectations are that planetary population will top out around 9 or 10 billion. That's a lot, but only a small fraction more than the current 7 billion. We're not going to run out of building room anytime soon.

People aren't moving out of Detroit because the world population has reached some number. They are reacting to a very local situation. There are a lot of similar, or worse, situations around the world. We won't suddenly start building arcologies to house the whole planet. They will first be local reactions to local situations.

An arcology would have to be a police state. Police states tend to not be overly thrilled with their better-performing inhabitants wanting to leave.

Given the staggering cost of these things, if they ever get built (and I think that is a BIG if) they will start as gated communities for the relatively well-to-do. The biggest weapon the local cops will have will be the threat of eviction. Toe the line, or we ship you back to Detroit.
 
Bill Walker said:
We won't suddenly start building arcologies to house the whole planet. They will first be local reactions to local situations.

What local situation would drive the development of arcologies? Japans fairly unique population-packed-in-a-tiny-space issue would not seem a terribly universal drive.

The biggest weapon the local cops will have will be the threat of eviction. Toe the line, or we ship you back to Detroit.

Ah, but consider this: the mindset of those who chose to live in an arcology would be vastly different from those who chose not to. The differences would be far greater than between, say, those who live in Cook County, and the rest of the population of Illinois. And right now (and for quite some time), the politics of the state of Illinois have been driven by the politics of Chicago due to the sheer population numbers. The rest of Illinois would *love* to seccede from Chicago. Now in some future where the city of Chicago has been replaced with the arcology of Chicago... Chi-town and the rest of the state would have *nothing* in common. They would effectively be not only separate nations, but culturally very different nations.

So when the Imperial Arcology of Chicago, say, decides to evict someone for (let's say) chewing gum or having a plastic cup of more than 16 ounces volume, what makes you think the Republic of Illinois will take them? The Imperial Arcologists might open the door only to find the Republic has built a wall just outside it. Alternatively, when the Republicans get sick of the Imperialists crap, such as passing laws that make *no* sense outside of the Arcology and yet try enforcing them everywhere, the simple solution of stopping the food trucks and trains might be enforced.
 
They would effectively be not only separate nations, but culturally very different nations.

"Effectively" literally doesn't count. The relationship between Imperial Chicago and the People's Democratic Republic of Illinois will be worked out before the thing is built. If it is ever built.

And anyway, Canada will take them. We take around 100,000 Yanks a year right now.
 
Bill Walker said:
And anyway, Canada will take them. We take around 100,000 Yanks a year right now.

Feel free to take Chicagoans. Illinois would thank you.

As to the relationships being worked out in advance: that relationship would only last as long as the respective cultures remain what they were. As the glittering shining City As A Hill descends inevitably into Cabrini Green In The Sky, the surrounding farmland may well transform into a blighted no-man's land. As it becomes more lawless and dangerous inside, fewer truckers will be willing to drive in to unload food. With less food coming in, the worse off it will get.

Over the centuries, perhaps a cycle will be recognized and accepted: a generation or two of Heaven Above Earth, folowed by a few generations of decay, followed by a year or two of nightmarish zombie apocalypse, with the inmates eating each other. Then you wait for a few months for the last of 'em to go at each other; pump the place full of carbon monoxide to be sure of it; wait five years or so for the stink to die down, then spend another five years cleaning it out. Then repopulate and repeat the cycle. The trick is to know when to stop letting people leave the arcology, and when to nail the doors shut. After a certain point, you do *not* want to let the inmates out into civilized company; they will have become eaters of men. This can be seen in many urban centers *now,* where thugs have taken over. But it was well explained in Skyfall:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yI1hjITn8Q
 
Orionblamblam said:
Over the centuries, perhaps a cycle will be recognized and accepted: a generation or two of Heaven Above Earth, folowed by a few generations of decay, followed by a year or two of nightmarish zombie apocalypse, with the inmates eating each other. Then you wait for a few months for the last of 'em to go at each other; pump the place full of carbon monoxide to be sure of it; wait five years or so for the stink to die down, then spend another five years cleaning it out. Then repopulate and repeat the cycle. The trick is to know when to stop letting people leave the arcology, and when to nail the doors shut. After a certain point, you do *not* want to let the inmates out into civilized company; they will have become eaters of men. This can be seen in many urban centers *now,* where thugs have taken over. But it was well explained in Skyfall:

Boy, you really do have a negative view of humanity - ::) we'll just have to agree to disagree.

FWIW the arcologies in my story would accommodate only a small percentage of the population - equivalent to those displaced by sea level change. The rest would continue to live in existing, albeit modified, settlements.
 
Tony Williams said:
Orionblamblam said:
Over the centuries, perhaps a cycle will be recognized and accepted: a generation or two of Heaven Above Earth, folowed by a few generations of decay, followed by a year or two of nightmarish zombie apocalypse, with the inmates eating each other. Then you wait for a few months for the last of 'em to go at each other; pump the place full of carbon monoxide to be sure of it; wait five years or so for the stink to die down, then spend another five years cleaning it out. Then repopulate and repeat the cycle. The trick is to know when to stop letting people leave the arcology, and when to nail the doors shut. After a certain point, you do *not* want to let the inmates out into civilized company; they will have become eaters of men. This can be seen in many urban centers *now,* where thugs have taken over. But it was well explained in Skyfall:

Boy, you really do have a negative view of humanity - ::) we'll just have to agree to disagree.

FWIW the arcologies in my story would accommodate only a small percentage of the population - equivalent to those displaced by sea level change. The rest would continue to live in existing, albeit modified, settlements.

Nope, he is a realist. Just like me...
and yes i know what he talking about, during 1932 and 1944 we Germans jump into the Abyss and still try to get out of it...

Back to Arcologies

Bill Walker note on dying Detroit could also happen to Arcologies, if economy move to another place.
but architects had also think about this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auIOnkoH5sg
like X-seed 4000, what is actually a swimming platform with 4000 meter high tube structure on it, but to move it need a hell of Tug boat.
X-seed 4000 was Not a real program it merely a think tank project for young engineers at Taisei Corporation back in 1995

other like Archigram went step to far: Plug-in City or The Walking City
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwTRBSUg6Zw
Plug-in-City is a mega-structure, a massive framework into which dwellings in the form of cells or standardised components could be slotted.
and yes Archigram was thinking on NATION wide Framework in Great Britain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq79yv1bKok
The Walking City is similar Idea, but smaller and it can move around!
 
Any settlement, of any type, can fail in unfavourable circumstances. The world is littered with the remains of town and even cities which died because the reason for their existence disappeared and suitable alternative reasons to survive could not be found (recent examples being maybe more common in the USA than elsewhere in the First World). There is nothing to suggest that an arcology would be more prone to failure than any other type of community. As I said in my first post, it all depends on how it is designed and managed, which determines whether or not people are going to want to live there.
 
Well I'm sure as hell not going to want to live where I can't have pets or shoot guns. Your Torus sounds like a complete nightmare to live in, like all these other mega-engineering thought experiments.
 
Each to his own - I would prefer it to a lot of existing places.

Who said anything about not shooting guns? With the building surrounded by recreation space accessible within a few minutes, there's no reason why opportunities for shooting shouldn't be provided if there's a demand for them. Unless, of course, you want to wander through the building shooting as you please, in which case your stay in the arcology would be very brief.....
 
1) How is an Archology a "zero-sum-game?" Are you only allowed one? No others can ever be built?

2) The argument on population is being argued from both sides: Ie: It will balloon out of control unless strictly controlled, meanwhile it has been pointed out that population growth in high-tech nations has slowed to below replacement level.

3) There is an assumption that the "government" of the Arcology will have to be a "police-state" and highly represive. Why?

4) There is an assumption that an Arocology MUST be unchangable and unalterable but this is not true of most modern structures and does not have to be true especially in a large structure such as an Acrology. Why is this assumed?

5) It is assumed that the interior will be unable to recieve natural light and fresh air. Why is this assumed when no details habe been given or definitions of how the Arcology is designed or built? (Note: It is still an Arcology even if there are numerous seperate "buildings" within a single structure. Many of Buckminster Fullers "Sky-Break" cities were and are considered prototype Arcologies)

6) The assumption is given that the inhabitents of an Arcology will somehow be "less-than-human" seems to be a theme and that those who choose to inhabit such a structure must be both morally corrupt and doomed to extinctiion yet the only example shown is one of mice/rats which unlike humans are unable to change even if given the opportunity. (The problem with the "realisitc" viewpoint that is being shown is that it ignores that the majority of human "civilized" culture we tended to crowd together in large numbers instead of dwelling apart in large areas. By choice for the most part.)

7) It is asssumed that the only cicumstances that could lead to Arcology type structures is catastrophe or disaster, there is also the assumption that any "Arcology" is going to have to be a huge, monolithic, expensive construction. This isn't neccessarily true as some mega-buildings currently are proto-acrologies already, and size-wise an Arcology can range from a simple "block" building to a full size city and anywhere in between.

8) No Pets! That's got to be one of the worst "suggestions" for an Acrology there ever was! People as a general rule LIKE to be around animals and there is no practical reason why they could not be accomodated easily and safetly into an Arcology.

9) Guns. Why would there be and why is it assumed that there would be specific and certain hobby activities prohibited within the Arcology? Sections and/or levels could easily be set aside with complete gun ranges, machine shops and light manufacturing areas. There would of course be restrictions on the kind and scope of certain activites within and around the residential sections, shades of zoning laws! :)

10) Since there seems to be a multiplicity of "bad" examples in literature given how about has anyone read "Oath of Feality" by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournele
http://www.amazon.com/Oath-Fealty-Larry-Niven/dp/1416555161
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_Fealty_(novel)

"Think of it as Evolution in Action"

Randy
 
Nils_D said:
Well I'm sure as hell not going to want to live where I can't have pets or shoot guns. Your Torus sounds like a complete nightmare to live in, like all these other mega-engineering thought experiments.


It would depend entirely on the alternative. If your options are arcology / zombie-infested city / zombie-infested countryside, you might reconsider.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom