sgeorges4

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is it me or the arado 234 C5 canopy are innacurate?
20-jpg.237773

15-png.522158

Also got to wonder why they didn't put the gondola under the C4 when it's on the original document
19-jpg.237771
 

Hood

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As an aside, I love how they added eyes and mouths to the outline pilots. Completely unnecessary but a neat touch that shows someone took the time.
 

newsdeskdan

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As an aside, I love how they added eyes and mouths to the outline pilots. Completely unnecessary but a neat touch that shows someone took the time.

Off topic, I know, but if you liked that, have a look at this section of a BV 238 Land (BV 250) drawing.

BV 238 Land.jpg


And here is the close-up. The guy on the left of the top row looks like, though tiny, he might even have been sketched to resemble a real person:

BV 238 Land close up.jpg

That little guy:

BV 238 Land guy.jpg
 

Avimimus

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I've heard from someone that a WB-151 based gunpack (used on the Ar-234 night fighter experiment) was also designed to be fitted to the Ar-234B for daytime use (and may have even been used). Is there any actual evidence for this?

I know that Arado flirted repeatedly with the idea of a forward firing armament for an armed recon variant in their early design studies, again with several C-variant proposals, and then with some of the follow-on projects... so it seems somewhat plausible.
 

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ArmchairSamurai

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As an aside, I love how they added eyes and mouths to the outline pilots. Completely unnecessary but a neat touch that shows someone took the time.

Off topic, I know, but if you liked that, have a look at this section of a BV 238 Land (BV 250) drawing.

View attachment 628670


And here is the close-up. The guy on the left of the top row looks like, though tiny, he might even have been sketched to resemble a real person:

View attachment 628671

That little guy:

View attachment 628673

Hello newsdeskdan, this is definitely off-topic, and I do not normally comment on posts, but your post is most intriguing; therefore I must ask, where did you find this drawing? That's the best quality draft of the BV 238-Land I have yet seen.
 

hesham

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From Flugzeug Extra.
 

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hesham

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From, Flieger Revue Extra 84,

a strange 3-view to Arado Ar.234 night fighter Project ?,I can't display the whole drawing,because the
magazine is just published,so I only exhibit a profile of it,and translate the caption;

Right: As a further development the Ar 234 was created 1945 the progressive design
of a night fighter.
 

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hesham

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From, Flugzeug Classic - 2014-09.
 

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newsdeskdan

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Also;

Ar.234 J
Ar.234 R ,Type A & B versions,fitted with one or two HKW 509 rocket engines
Ar.234 E
What was/were the intended role(s) for each of those variants?

There was no 'Ar 234 J' - although there was a design for an 'Ar 234 Jaeger' dated 22.5.1943, which was basically an Ar 234 fitted with 2 x Jumo 004 C or two HeS 011s and armed with 3 x MK 108 + 2 x MG 151s firing forward and 2 x MG 151s firing rearwards. Had it gone into production it's unlikely that it would have been given the letter 'J'.
I'm not convinced that there were 'A' and 'B' versons of the Ar 234 R. In any case, it was for reconnaissance.
The Ar 234 E was supposedly an Ar 234 bomber powered by two HeS 011s and the Ar 234 F was supposedly an Ar 234 bomber powered by four HeS 011s. I've never seen any contemporary evidence for an 'E' or an 'F' but they come from the otherwise reliable Arado 234 Blitz book by Smith and Creek so it's likely that they're 'real'.
 

athpilot

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Also;

Ar.234 J
Ar.234 R ,Type A & B versions,fitted with one or two HKW 509 rocket engines
Ar.234 E
What was/were the intended role(s) for each of those variants?

There was no 'Ar 234 J' - although there was a design for an 'Ar 234 Jaeger' dated 22.5.1943, which was basically an Ar 234 fitted with 2 x Jumo 004 C or two HeS 011s and armed with 3 x MK 108 + 2 x MG 151s firing forward and 2 x MG 151s firing rearwards. Had it gone into production it's unlikely that it would have been given the letter 'J'.
I'm not convinced that there were 'A' and 'B' versons of the Ar 234 R. In any case, it was for reconnaissance.
The Ar 234 E was supposedly an Ar 234 bomber powered by two HeS 011s and the Ar 234 F was supposedly an Ar 234 bomber powered by four HeS 011s. I've never seen any contemporary evidence for an 'E' or an 'F' but they come from the otherwise reliable Arado 234 Blitz book by Smith and Creek so it's likely that they're 'real'.
I thought "R" is for Rakete (rocket); the roket powered recce version.
Btw. I´m reading your book about the Heinkel 162. Could you please do a "Secret Projects of the Luftwaffe" volume about the Ar 234 in the future?
 

newsdeskdan

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Also;

Ar.234 J
Ar.234 R ,Type A & B versions,fitted with one or two HKW 509 rocket engines
Ar.234 E
What was/were the intended role(s) for each of those variants?

There was no 'Ar 234 J' - although there was a design for an 'Ar 234 Jaeger' dated 22.5.1943, which was basically an Ar 234 fitted with 2 x Jumo 004 C or two HeS 011s and armed with 3 x MK 108 + 2 x MG 151s firing forward and 2 x MG 151s firing rearwards. Had it gone into production it's unlikely that it would have been given the letter 'J'.
I'm not convinced that there were 'A' and 'B' versons of the Ar 234 R. In any case, it was for reconnaissance.
The Ar 234 E was supposedly an Ar 234 bomber powered by two HeS 011s and the Ar 234 F was supposedly an Ar 234 bomber powered by four HeS 011s. I've never seen any contemporary evidence for an 'E' or an 'F' but they come from the otherwise reliable Arado 234 Blitz book by Smith and Creek so it's likely that they're 'real'.
I thought "R" is for Rakete (rocket); the roket powered recce version.
Btw. I´m reading your book about the Heinkel 162. Could you please do a "Secret Projects of the Luftwaffe" volume about the Ar 234 in the future?

Yes, the Ar 234 R was the rocket-powered recce version. Looking through the 'Ar 234 mit R-Antrieb' report of March 14, 1944, it does appear that there was an 'a' version and a 'b' version.
'Ausfuehrung a' had two rocket motors of 1500kg thrust in the fuselage for climbing plus two of 400kg thrust each under the wings for horizontal flight.
'Ausfuehrung b' had two rocket motors in the fuselage - one of 2000kg thrust for climbing and one of 400kg thrust for horizontal flight.
It looks as though the 'a' was dropped very quickly - documents from April 20, 1944, for a 'Kurzstreckenhoehenaufklaerer' only show the variant with two motors in the fuselage.
 
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robunos

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Also;

Ar.234 J
Ar.234 R ,Type A & B versions,fitted with one or two HKW 509 rocket engines
Ar.234 E
What was/were the intended role(s) for each of those variants?

There was no 'Ar 234 J' - although there was a design for an 'Ar 234 Jaeger' dated 22.5.1943, which was basically an Ar 234 fitted with 2 x Jumo 004 C or two HeS 011s and armed with 3 x MK 108 + 2 x MG 151s firing forward and 2 x MG 151s firing rearwards. Had it gone into production it's unlikely that it would have been given the letter 'J'.
I'm not convinced that there were 'A' and 'B' versons of the Ar 234 R. In any case, it was for reconnaissance.
The Ar 234 E was supposedly an Ar 234 bomber powered by two HeS 011s and the Ar 234 F was supposedly an Ar 234 bomber powered by four HeS 011s. I've never seen any contemporary evidence for an 'E' or an 'F' but they come from the otherwise reliable Arado 234 Blitz book by Smith and Creek so it's likely that they're 'real'.
I thought "R" is for Rakete (rocket); the roket powered recce version.
Btw. I´m reading your book about the Heinkel 162. Could you please do a "Secret Projects of the Luftwaffe" volume about the Ar 234 in the future?

Yes, the Ar 234 R was the rocket-powered recce version. Looking through the 'Ar 234 mit R-Antrieb' report of March 14, 1944, it does appear that there was an 'a' version and a 'b' version.
'Ausfuehrung a' had two rocket motors of 1500kg thrust in the fuselage for climbing plus two of 400kg thrust each under the wings for horizontal flight.
'Ausfuehrung b' had two rocket motors in the fuselage - one of 2000kg thrust for climbing and one of 400kg thrust for horizontal flight.
It looks as though the 'a' was dropped very quickly - documents from April 20, 1944, for a 'Kurzstreckenhoehenaufklaerer' only show the variant with two motors in the fuselage.

Hesham posted drawings in Reply #11 . . . ;)

cheers,
Robin.
 

newsdeskdan

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Yes, the Ar 234 R was the rocket-powered recce version. Looking through the 'Ar 234 mit R-Antrieb' report of March 14, 1944, it does appear that there was an 'a' version and a 'b' version.
'Ausfuehrung a' had two rocket motors of 1500kg thrust in the fuselage for climbing plus two of 400kg thrust each under the wings for horizontal flight.
'Ausfuehrung b' had two rocket motors in the fuselage - one of 2000kg thrust for climbing and one of 400kg thrust for horizontal flight.
It looks as though the 'a' was dropped very quickly - documents from April 20, 1944, for a 'Kurzstreckenhoehenaufklaerer' only show the variant with two motors in the fuselage.

Hesham posted drawings in Reply #11 . . . ;)

cheers,
Robin.

The photo from Reply #11 shows a model corresponding to the Ar 234 Jaeger. The drawings are highly inaccurate. I'll publish the originals - scanned from the Arado documents - at some point and you'll be able to see for yourself.
 

hesham

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From, Secret Luftwaffe Projects of the Nazi Era From Arado to Zeppelin with Contemporary Drawings
 

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Foo Fighter

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Very kind to show us what you did, thank you.
 

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newsdeskdan

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I have the rest of the document but it's not available for download.
If no download, in what form is this available then?

I scanned it from the original hard copy report.
Hmmmmmm.

Of course, another version of the same basic document, complete with drawings (albeit in much lower quality), can also be found on microfilm. But this isn't 'available to download' either. If you know where to look, you can order a hard copy of the original reel, wait six months for it to arrive, then run it through a digital microfilm scanner.

1.jpg 2.jpg 3.jpg
 

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Of course, "not available for download" might also mean "I've got it but don't want to share it." I've certainly run into that before.

AlanG
Sometimes folks have these things and plan to use them for books and such, and prematurely sharing the originals would trash the market for the authors book.
 

newsdeskdan

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Of course, "not available for download" might also mean "I've got it but don't want to share it." I've certainly run into that before.

AlanG

You spend years searching for something, and when you eventually find it you go to a great deal of trouble and expense to acquire it. And when you finally have it, some stranger on the internet is shocked when they can't click a link and download it.
 

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Very, very true, Dan!

I'm often willing to share things out of my collection with other authors and occasionally with on-line contributors whose contributions I've come to enjoy and respect for their depth of knowledge and integrity. Obviously, this is a pretty small number. LOL

AlanG
 

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Of course, "not available for download" might also mean "I've got it but don't want to share it." I've certainly run into that before.

AlanG

You spend years searching for something, and when you eventually find it you go to a great deal of trouble and expense to acquire it. And when you finally have it, some stranger on the internet is shocked when they can't click a link and download it.

Understandable newsdeskdan. Truthfully, when it comes to things like the BV 250 Land, a single sketch or a single photo is all I usually go for. I care not for an entire report as I use such things merely as a reference for my screenwriting hobby--to attest that it existed, but also that I have a hard list of everything I intend to include. (I am writing an anthology series based on my own alternate history timeline) I'd be willing to put in the effort myself to find such things, as I have already done that with so much else. The crown jewel of my reference archive methinks would be the Schlüssel-Fernschreibmaschine SFM T-43; yet, without writing FOIA letters to every agency in the U.S., I am lost as to where to look. And yes, I already know there are two overexposed xerox photos floating around out there, as well as a few PDFs on the machine (in English and German). I already looked through all that.
 

newsdeskdan

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BV 250 Land

The type was originally the Blohm & Voss P 161.01, then BV 238 Land before finally receiving its own designation - BV 250. The project report was presumably printed up just before the redesignation. The outside front cover has the correct designation but the internal title page appears to have been manually amended.

On the point about 'without writing FOIA letters to every agency in the U.S., I am lost as to where to look', this may seem a bit obvious, but have you tried Googling 'captured German WW2 documents'?

Or get some existing books on the topic and look at the footnotes, where available, which show the sources referenced and where they came from.
 
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ArmchairSamurai

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BV 250 Land

The type was originally the Blohm & Voss P 161.01, then BV 238 Land before finally receiving its own designation - BV 250. The project report was presumably printed up just before the redesignation. The outside front cover has the correct designation but the internal title page appears to have been manually amended.

On the point about 'without writing FOIA letters to every agency in the U.S., I am lost as to where to look', this may seem a bit obvious, but have you tried Googling 'captured German WW2 documents'?

Or get some existing books on the topic and look at the footnotes, where available, which show the sources referenced and where they came from.

Interesting. I will have to keep an eye out.

Not to be rude my friend, but if it were as simple as Googling it, I'd have it by now haha. XD
I have dug through dozens of TICOM, SIGINT, OKW, Telefunken/Siemens documents, museum/archivist catalogs, books or articles, and found nothing more than a few mentions here and there. I know how the machine works, I know its weaknesses and so on, that information is available... however the actual file itself, the actual classification, and documentation are elusive. The big question is where did it come from? Compared to what I can readily find on the T-52, SG-39, SG-41 & SG-41z, SZ-40, SZ-42, and the well-known Enigma, the information on the T-43 is severely lacking, and lacking an origin too.

The only good lead I have (what most people credit in their footnotes) is a German author(?) by the name of Jozef Langer. His account of the machines' whereabouts postwar is why I figure FOIA is my best option, as he claims how the U.S. ended up with the majority of the examples, where they found their new home in the state of Maryland. Trust me, I checked his bibliography too. What puzzles me further is that not a single example of the machine has turned up, anywhere, since war's end, compared to all the other machines that see many examples in both private and public hands. You would think a museum, somewhere, would have one given the number that was recovered. Hell, even Norway ended up with at least 1 if I remember correctly... yet, there is nothing. I thought I found one for auction once, but come to find out, it was a misidentified T-37. I even contacted Bletchley Park museum and was surprised that the staff was equally perplexed as I was. Part of me wonders if, for whatever reason, the machine is still classified in the U.S.? But what about the U.K.? Since all the information that I can find on the T-43 leads back to a German source, it's likely that the origin is not declassified American intel, but maybe Siemens itself. Either that, or it is so buried in red tape, that no one as of yet has dug it up. I do not know. I have practically anything and everything archived, minus a few rare eggs here and there like the BV-250, however, the T-43 is like a white whale to me.
 

newsdeskdan

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Not to be rude my friend, but if it were as simple as Googling it, I'd have it by now haha. XD

Locating captured German WW2 documents concerning aviation is as simple as Googling it. I thought you would most likely dismiss my suggestion - it perhaps seems absurd - but since you don't yet have what you are looking for, you may not, in fact, have Googled it. If you have Googled it, you may not have examined your search results very closely. I must stress, though, that this applies to aviation-related documents (including electronics such as radar, radios, IFF etc.). I have no idea what happened to the crypto stuff.
 
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ArmchairSamurai

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Not to be rude my friend, but if it were as simple as Googling it, I'd have it by now haha. XD

Locating captured German WW2 documents concerning aviation is as simple as Googling it. I thought you would most likely dismiss my suggestion - it perhaps seems absurd - but since you don't yet have what you are looking for, you may not, in fact, have Googled it. If you have Googled it, you may not have examined your search results very closely. I must stress, though, that this applies to aviation-related documents (including electronics such as radar, radios, IFF etc.). I have no idea what happened to the crypto stuff.
Oh no, I did not dismiss you on the aviation stuff. I will find the BV 250 files eventually. That's how I found everything else, was by digging through lots of internet pages, forums, and such (mostly foreign sites). I was more or less ranting about the T-43. I appreciate the conversation though; my apologies that I got off-topic for this thread.
 

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