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Anschließend die Sendereihe:The Influence of German Military Technology afterWW2

Pelzig

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Within another thread, I kicked this can around but figured it could use its own thread. One thing I've always been interested in was how much, immediately after WW2, German military technology influenced the winning powers. Examples include the French AAS 01A and 01B (He 274), Czech Avia S-92 (Me 262), Junkers EF 126 (continued by the Russians), Ju 287 (also continued by the Russians), JB-2 Loon (U.S. copy of the Fi 103), etc. Also included would be other weapon systems such as the SS-1 Scunner (Russian copy of the V-2), the French AMX-50 tank (which was derived from the Panther), the StG-45 assault rifle (whose legacy was carried into French and Spanish small arms), the Swiss G-13/Czech ST-1 (continuations of the German Hetzer tank destroyer), and so on.


Anschließend die Sendereihe translates as "Afterwards Series" and seemed appropriate to the title. My proposed design would be very similar, if not a version, of the old Profile Series from the 1960s and 1970s. These were very short monographs, normally not more than 12-16 pages, on a particular topic. Asides from photos, there were usually color profiles.


Each booklet would be completely digital and offered as a e-book (PDF) or formatted for markets like Amazon's Kindle. The reason for this is purely economical in which it is economical to produce (as compared to physical print media which requires bulk production orders to even get a low, per-book cost) and also economical to the customer in terms of a very low price.


What would be the interest in such a series? Comments welcomed and appreciated.
 

Antonio

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Re: Anschließend Sendereihe: The Influence of German Military Technology after WW2

I'm interested :)
 

Stargazer2006

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Re: Anschließend Sendereihe: The Influence of German Military Technology after WW2

A very interesting subject for a book, I agree! Definitely something I would love to read.

Not sure this topic belongs in the "Bookshelf..." section though, since the book is not published, let alone written yet... ::)
 

Jemiba

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Re: Anschließend Sendereihe: The Influence of German Military Technology after WW2

The influence of German technology in the US or Soviet Union was already quite often a theme, but when I recently saw
again the short story of the FMA, or more precise, the development of the Argentine aviation industry
(http://www.mincyt.cba.gov.ar/site/fabricamilitar/descarga/fma2008.pdf),
I realised, that there was a lot of German influence, too. Mainly by active work of designers like Kurt Tank, but for example
the V 1 and the Hs 293 were at least tested in Argentina, too. And cross-references are pointing to Egypt (Helwan 300)
and India (Marut HF-24). Could imagine, that the German influence in those countries may have been much greater, than
in the then Super-Powers, who had an experienced aviation industry on their own. But still yet, I don't know a publication
about this theme.
BTW: "Anschließend (die) Sendereihe" is the typical standard phrase used by TV broadcasters to announce the next episode
of a TV series. An article ("die", definite article female) shouldn't be forgotten, otherwise the meaning is a little bit hard to
understand even for Germans.
And as the book still isn't written, I would think, this thread belongs to " ... & Marketplace" ;)
 

Pelzig

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Re: Anschließend Sendereihe: The Influence of German Military Technology after WW2

While I understand U.S. and Russian aviation is more well known, my series won't focus exclusively on aircraft. Although not as prevalent, there were tanks, small arms, artillery, etc. which sprang from continuations, or outright manufacture, of German ground force equipment following WW2.


So, true, it will touch material well covered but I think there is more than enough left to make it interesting. :)
 

Avimimus

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I'd be most interested if such a book took a highly critical attitude and focussed on how engineering trends in WW2 were refined, reinvented or discarded by other nations. For example, how the trend towards super-heavy tanks came to an end or how the MG213 had to be modified before the operational Aden cannons could be developed.
It would also be interesting if the book included some comparisons with technologies in development by other nations (e.g. how radically different the the ShKAS and the MG213 are)
 

Antonio

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And cross-references are pointing to Egypt (Helwan 300)

Don't forget about Spain. The Helwan 300 started development in Spain at Hispano Aviación under the designation HA-300 in 1953 and later sold to Egypt. Previously Egypt had bought the manufacturing license for the HA-200 as Helwan Al Kahira. The HA-300 was projected to be powered by a "German" engine, the Snecma ATAR-101 E. Ernst Heinkel, offered a rival design, the project He-012 to be developed in Germany but manufactured at CASA, Spain.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,171.0.html

Profesor Willy Messerschmitt came to Spain in March 1951 and the "Oficina Técnica Profesor Messerschmitt" was established in La Hispano Aviación de Sevilla in January the 1st, 1952.
Hispano HA-200 was offered to the Luftwaffe in 1955 as Me-200 because it was a Messerschmitt design. Hispano HA-100 was a Messerschmitt design too, and the HA-400 from 1958 was inspired in the Messerchmitt P.1203.
 

tartle

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... and the Brits... rocketry and delta wings and Gyrodyne to name but a few. There is a book, see below, that has a chapter on the countries that benefited from technology transfer, but of course not in much detail so expansion in the form of booklets would be good!
 

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gatoraptor

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One would also have to notice the similarities between the Baade designs and the Boeing B-47: bicycle landing gear, engines in pods below the wings......
 

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Re: Anschließend Sendereihe: The Influence of German Military Technology after WW2

Hikoki1946 said:
While I understand U.S. and Russian aviation is more well known, my series won't focus exclusively on aircraft. Although not as prevalent, there were tanks, small arms, artillery, etc. which sprang from continuations, or outright manufacture, of German ground force equipment following WW2.

While some aspects of German technologies were obviously important post-war, others have been seriously blown out of proportion. For example, many people try to link the AK-47 to the Stg-44... based, apparently, on little more than them looking similar and having similar functions. But the actual workings of the AK-47 were far more likely derived from the Remington Model 8, designed by John Browning in 1900.

While German influence on American rocketry and space slight is undeniable, a good case can be made that the German approach set the US *back.* The Germans were cetainly ahead in 1945, and their shiny, more-or-less successful toys made the US military and politicians shove American rocketeers into the background, stifling many promising avenues of development.

The delta wing was a very important piece of technology in the post-war years, often attributed to German Al Lippisch. But Lippish's delta wing designs were *terrible.* Not a single successful aircraft was built in the post-war years based on his wartime delta wing concepts.
 

Stargazer2006

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Re: Anschließend Sendereihe: The Influence of German Military Technology after WW2

Orionblamblam said:
The delta wing was a very important piece of technology in the post-war years, often attributed to German Al Lippisch. But Lippish's delta wing designs were *terrible.* Not a single successful aircraft was built in the post-war years based on his wartime delta wing concepts.

Weren't the XF-92 and YF-102 directly developed from Lippisch's ideas? Of course, area ruling had to be tossed in the formula to make it really effective, but once this was done, did they not spawn the F-102A and then the F-106, two successful USAF fighters?
 

Antonio

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The German technological blossom from WWII was an aportation to Allied Nations technology, not a substitution. Produced simbiotic products. Remember that some German concepts resulted in unsuccesful products when developed from project to prototype. The XF-92 is an example.
Technological blossom developed under hard ambiental pressure so it can be explained under Darwin's laws.
Hikoki, you should consider what Scott Lowther noted in his post.
Technological evolution is fascinating and we shouldn't be naive considering that III Reich invented evething. Wasn't the Panther tank based on some of the T-34 solutions. And what about the B-29?, possibly one of the most influential aircraft in later Cold War developments: a 100% genuine American product.
 

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Re: Anschließend Sendereihe: The Influence of German Military Technology after WW2

Stargazer2006 said:
Weren't the XF-92 and YF-102 directly developed from Lippisch's ideas?

If the basic geometry of Lippisch's delta (DM-1) was kept, the airfoil thickness had to be considerably reduced to be effective.
 

Antonio

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Some data:

*North American studied the A-4b in the origins of MX-770 development, which became the Navaho missile. Research on the concept uncovered a severe stability problem.

*Hermes A-1 was a Wasserfall copy but was dropped in favor of the superior Nike Ajax design.

*In the Book "Superfortress", page 26 , General LeMay and Bill Yenne say the Me-264 was a copy of Boeing's Model 334 (a B-29 ancestor). Although I'm not really sure that could be true, that's an interesting claim to be confirmed. ;)

I think III Reich Technological Blossom should be explained in its right dimension, which is extremely fascinating and there is no need for mythification exhibited by some authors.
 

antigravite

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A huge scholar body of literature has been published on this very subject insofar as it pertains to a better understanding of scientific and technological migration, the oft called "brain drain".
This road will drive you down to the US (Lusty, Paperclip), USSR, UK, France, Switzerland, Egypt, Argentina, Zaire, Lybia… Western intelligence organizations orchestrated a series of well documented intelligence operations to piece the extent by which German engineers and scientists contributed to the build up of Soviet missile, aircraft radar and nuclear weapons systems. One of those intelligence operations was code named "Dragon Return". You might also find interesting pieces of information in some of the CIA's now declassified "Studies in Intellligence" articles. Such as: Bill Gray's "Crystal Balls and Glass Bottles" https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/kent-csi/vol12i2/pdf/v12i2a01p.pdf
In any case, there still is a lot of homework in sight for you.
A.
 

Orionblamblam

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Re: Anschließend Sendereihe: The Influence of German Military Technology after WW2

Stargazer2006 said:
Orionblamblam said:
The delta wing was a very important piece of technology in the post-war years, often attributed to German Al Lippisch. But Lippish's delta wing designs were *terrible.* Not a single successful aircraft was built in the post-war years based on his wartime delta wing concepts.

Weren't the XF-92 and YF-102 directly developed from Lippisch's ideas?

"Inspired by," perhaps. But apart from the delta planform, they shared nothing else with Lippisch's delts. The airfoil cross-sections were *entirely* different... and that's a vital distinction. Lippisch's wings were horrifically fat; actually successful delta wings are quite thin comparatively.
 

Pelzig

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Re: Anschließend Sendereihe: The Influence of German Military Technology after WW2


True, the XF-92 started out from studies of Lippisch's captured DM-1 glider. But as already mentioned, so many problems were found with the DM-1 that it began a cascade of revisions in the design before the XF-92 was finalized.

Stargazer2006 said:
Weren't the XF-92 and YF-102 directly developed from Lippisch's ideas? Of course, area ruling had to be tossed in the formula to make it really effective, but once this was done, did they not spawn the F-102A and then the F-106, two successful USAF fighters?
 

Pelzig

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Re: Anschließend Sendereihe: The Influence of German Military Technology after WW2


And one intent of this series is to clear out the hype.

Orionblamblam said:
While some aspects of German technologies were obviously important post-war, others have been seriously blown out of proportion.
 

Justo Miranda

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Influence here... ;)
 

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edwest

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This type of approach has great merit. The Americans and British, not to mention the Russians, stole anything they could get their hands on, including patents. The BIOS and CIOS reports would be worth adding, along with items located by the British and American T-Force. Contrary to some comments on the internet, the Americans were not stupid. If a captured German scientist could not produce, he could be re-Nazified and shipped out of the country.
 

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It is interesting that a real contribution to high speed flight by German engineers (besides swept surfaces) - namely the area rule patented by Otto Frenzl and alias at Junkers 1944 - was overlooked or not taken seriously until the rediscovery by Whitcomb 1952. The application of it would have made supersonic flight possible or at least much easier in the immediate post war years and would have had a huge influence on the shape of the first generation jet fighters.
 

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I'm thinking I will use Lulu to offer the publications. Given the relatively small page count, it should make for an affordable book through them.
 

Pelzig

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Tossing up a prototype of the front cover of the series. It is based directly on the long out of print Profile Publications series. The interior will be laid out in a similar fashion. No fuss, no muss. ;D
 

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Looks good so far, Hikoki. Let us know when the Lulu version becomes available.
 

Pelzig

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I sent off the manuscript and should have the hard copy in hand in a week or three. Hopefully it comes out alright. :)

Firebee said:
Looks good so far, Hikoki. Let us know when the Lulu version becomes available.
 

gatoraptor

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As a collector of "Profiles" during the '60s, I love the look of the cover! I presume, though, that you'll use a more modern-looking font for the actual cover? And I'd suggest putting the English translation in larger type. I look forward to the series.
 

Pelzig

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I tweaked the cover to bring it more in line with the original Profile series. One thing, though, is that the interior is single column rather than two column. The original manuscript was done in double column (using Pagemaker) but no matter what PDF printer I used (Nitro Pro and Acrobat X), Lulu would reject the PDFs. So, I had to revert to MS Word which was a nightmare to try to layout the book. So, the easiest thing to do was ditch the two column and go with single.


Book size is 6X9 which approximates the Profile booklets.



gatoraptor said:
As a collector of "Profiles" during the '60s, I love the look of the cover! I presume, though, that you'll use a more modern-looking font for the actual cover? And I'd suggest putting the English translation in larger type. I look forward to the series.
 

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Pelzig

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The debut issue is now on sale!


http://www.lulu.com/shop/search.ep?contributorId=1173432


Many more to come and thank you in advance for your support.
 

Pelzig

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AdS No.2 on the MiG I-270 is now available and I've added a new series, Plane Profile Publications, the debut issue being the Bugatti Model 100 (which was cut from the Italian Secret Projects book).


http://www.lulu.com/shop/search.ep?contributorId=1173432
 

gatoraptor

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How often do you plan to issue these? If I had known #2 was going to come out so soon, I wouldn't have ordered #1 so quickly!
 

Pelzig

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I know what you mean. I have to buy my own copies!


For the moment, no new ones will be out until Japanese Secret Projects 2 is turned in the next few weeks. After that, the next three planned are the Convair XF-92 (evolved from the DM-1), Avia S-92 (Me 262), and EF 126 (same name in Russian post-WW2 testing).





gatoraptor said:
How often do you plan to issue these? If I had known #2 was going to come out so soon, I wouldn't have ordered #1 so quickly!
 

gatoraptor

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I received no. 1 from Lulu in good time, and this definitely shows promise.

I hadn't measured an old Profile Publication lately and was a bit surprised how small 6 x 9 seems, but it should be adequate. The quality of the card-stock cover and glossy pages is first-rate, and the production seems very professional. The back cover can (and will) be used for further color drawings, but in no. 1 the only one is the side view on the front cover. Considering that only two He 274/AAS 01 were built, and had limited lifespans, that is not really a problem here.

There are 9 pages of text and photos telling the story; the single-column layout looks a bit odd, as do the very generous margins. The 8 photos are rather small but well printed, though the print used for the captions is quite tiny. There is an additional page with a reasonably-detailed specification table and another with a 3-view line drawing by Dennis Punnett (which probably appeared in "Warplanes of the Third Reich" a long time ago).

I suspect that there isn't much more that can be written about this engimatic airplane. I've already ordered the second in this series, as well as the first in the companion series on the Bugatti 100, an airplane that always fascinated me. Thanks for the effort, and I look forward to more.
 

Pelzig

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Appreciate the review! The original Profile Publications are approximately 7.25 X 9.25. Since this isn't a size offered by Lulu, I had to go with 6 X 9. I have been impressed with Lulu's on demand printing service. It is much faster than I thought it would be and the results look slick.


Originally, I'd wanted to use double column. I am fluent with Adobe's Pagemaker but was not able to convert the document into a PDF that Lulu would except. And I tried all sorts of PDF printers (Adobe Distiller, Nitro Pro, PDF Printer, etc.) to no avail. So, I had to revert to using MS Word and that is a nightmare to try to do book layouts, especially double column. It just became much easier to do single column. As for the margins, not sure why that is happening. I don't have them set so large in Word, so, I'm hazarding a guess that when Lulu converts the file to a PDF, the margins get a bit bigger.


Page count will certainly vary depending on the aircraft. If there isn't too much to tell, it will be smaller. And indeed, the back cover would be used for color profiles. I made a mock-up of the second Anschließend die Sendereihe (I-270) with color interior pages and the cost, even my cost, was too high to proceed with given the page count. So, the back and front covers would be the only places for any color profiles.


The next Plane Profile Publication will cover the Royal Aircraft Factory B.E.9 "Pulpit"
 

gatoraptor

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I can understand the cost problem with color. Is putting color on the inside of the covers a possibility, or would that still be prohibitive?

The B.E.9 is an interesting topic. How about oddballs like the Caproni Stipa?
 

Pelzig

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At least with my account level, they only print the back and front of the cover, not the interior. I'll have to look into their premium services to see if that is a possibility.


Indeed, while there is little to say on the B.E.9, it was bizarre enough to warrant an issue. At least the British thought better of putting it into production. I suspect I'll give the SPAD A.2 some time later as it was pretty much the same idea but actually did go into regular service.


Ah, the Stipa. I love that flying barrel. But, it is covered in depth in the Italian Secret Projects book. Though, I plan on doing monographs on the more unusual planes rather than rehashing the same aircraft that Profile Publications put out.



gatoraptor said:
I can understand the cost problem with color. Is putting color on the inside of the covers a possibility, or would that still be prohibitive?

The B.E.9 is an interesting topic. How about oddballs like the Caproni Stipa?
 

gatoraptor

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After a promising start, Mr. Dyer's two series came to a screeching halt after a total of 5 issues (4 of which are still available thru Lulu). Does anyone know what's happened?
 

Pelzig

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At present, other book projects have priority. But, rest assured, my two series haven't been forgotten and more will appear sometime this year. :)

gatoraptor said:
After a promising start, Mr. Dyer's two series came to a screeching halt after a total of 5 issues (4 of which are still available thru Lulu). Does anyone know what's happened?
 

gatoraptor

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Hikoki1946 said:
At present, other book projects have priority. But, rest assured, my two series haven't been forgotten and more will appear sometime this year. :)

gatoraptor said:
After a promising start, Mr. Dyer's two series came to a screeching halt after a total of 5 issues (4 of which are still available thru Lulu). Does anyone know what's happened?
"more will appear sometime this year." That was written over three years ago, and there have been no more issues of either series!
 
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