Anglo French military project early 60s What might it have been like?

uk 75

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Given the Macmillan Government's desire to join the Common Market and the agreement on Concorde what might an Anglo French military programme have looked like either starting in 1958 or 1962. More of a fantasy than a what-if?

TSR 2 replaced by a BAC Dassault Mirage version?

1154 replaced by a Hawker Siddeley Breguet Harrier Jaguar type?
 

JFC Fuller

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I don't see anything much different from AFVG happening, a new custom high-end aircraft and engine combination based largely on UK tech but using French engineering/design capacity and cash- either for TSR-2 or for P.1154 requirements. Every new-start UK front-line combat aircraft programme started from 1955 onwards emphasised ground-breaking, high capability and often specialised platforms over and above simplicity, cost or any other consideration (remember the the RAF's initial interest in Jaguar was only as a trainer) and I see no reason why earlier Anglo-French collaboration would have changed this.

A far more tantalising prospect is that Concorde never happens and instead the money for it is used as launch aid for new airliners coming out of a unified Hawker Siddeley Aviation and British Aircraft Corporation. Government wanted to merge the two companies as early as 1966, Concorde was a monumental waste of money and resources and BAC was designing good fuselages (1-11, 2-11, 3-11) and HSA was designing great wings (HS.134/Airbus family). They could have beaten Airbus to market and bettered the US Tri-jets.
 

pathology_doc

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I don't know what the Mirage IV's nav/attack system was like, but if TSR.2 had fallen flat and the Brits and French had got together, could we have seen a Mirage IV with TSR.2 avionics and maybe British engines?
 

JFC Fuller

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pathology_doc said:
I don't know what the Mirage IV's nav/attack system was like, but if TSR.2 had fallen flat and the Brits and French had got together, could we have seen a Mirage IV with TSR.2 avionics and maybe British engines?
It was the TSR-2 Nav-attack system that was part of the problem; VERDAN was not capable enough for what the UK wanted to do with it.
 

JFC Fuller

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pathology_doc said:
Granted, but how does it stack up next to the IV?
Well, for a start, one assumes that the IV's system actually worked which would probably give it a first round advantage.
 

pathology_doc

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True. However, when the specification is written to be impossibly exacting, promises of Godlike capability that fall short might actually translate to decent performance in the real world. Or was it really that bad?
 

alertken

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Even before Concorde and Martel, we did try, but it was all so hard.

May,1958: le Grand Charles is back. 3 July,1958:US eased the McMahon Act; UK could derive operable nuclear weapons. CDG tried 17/9/58 to join Anglos’ nuclear “Directorate”; rejection fuelled his inherent Anglosphobia J.Newhouse,89, Nuclear Age,Joseph,P324, even though “France benefited (too) with an import of enriched uranium for its prototype submarine reactor in 1959” G.Prins (Ed.), Defended to Death, P’in,83,P.340 and. “US agreed to sell a nuclear sub (=PWR reactor) to France” 10/62, I.Clark,Nuclear Diplomacy & the Special Relationship,OUP,94,P405, and also supplied tools to build solid rocket motors, INS and (later) KC-135A to extend Mirage IVA capability. Weapon design help was given to CEA/DAM; ops. inc.targeting, were discussed with FAF. But he embodied la Gloire and asserted a nuclear deterrence policy a tous azimuts. Collaboration with him required patience beyond Brit politicians' disposition.

PM Macmillan did try: UK “wants to join the European concern, France (to join Anglos’ A-List). Can terms be arranged?” UK should“ support (France) in their (sceptical) attitude towards NATO, give them the Bomb, perhaps some V-bombers, and generally support the idea of a confederation of Europe instead of a Federation”7/60: C.Williams,H.Macmillan,Weidenfeld,2009,P.375.
Avro then schemed Blue Steel/Mirage IV: “no question of providing either warheads or information about their design”; “Br. leaders, rightly regarding (UK) as more advanced…thought (in ’62 with Concorde to have) made a gesture (to aid CDG’s) ambitions to construct a potent strike force(hoping he) would be grateful” (re.EEC) I.Clark, P319. (* note added, 29/8)

For NBMR.3, 8/61, Mirage IIIV was bid and BAC tried to spook onboard. In 1967 after AFVG was spreadeagled, BAC was not avid to be subordinate to Dassault, but yet worse would be ex-AFVG avionics in RAF-Buccaneer, so they pimped Spey/Mirage IV. But France's notions of marriage were, ah, gallic-centric. Which is why they were thrown out of (to be) Tornado, later of (to be) Typhoon.

Maybe on this FCAS UCAV-notion, the financial impossibility of going-it-alone may make it third time lucky.



(*: this US author was an ex-diplomat. I don't think he is alluding to the 1962 ogee transport as itself delivering ordnance: he is reflecting UK Ministers' hope for CDG recognition of military value in UK technology in big structures, big hot engines, to add endurance and longevity to a Mark 2 Mirage IV).
 

uk 75

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Fascinating stuff chaps. I had not thought to include the civil side but in fact Air France did order the Comet 1 and the Caravelle had a comet style nose.

Interestingly France did not go down the path of developing its own civilian airliners like the British, except for the lacklustre Dassault Mercure (thought this paved the way for French involvement in Airbus).

France and Germany were more successful than the UK in developing their own transport aircraft, the Transall C 160 though France had to buy additional C130s like Britain.

If France had had a more moderate ruler than Le Grand and if Marcel Dassault had not been so strong a personality, the actual aircraft builders seem to have worked okay together once the politics was out of the way.

A more powerful longer range Mirage IV would have been an excellent Valiant replacement for the RAF NATO operational theatre role.

If it had not been for Rolls Royce and BAC the UK might have been able to persuade the French and Germans to help develop a P1127 as a Hunter/Fiat G91 replacement.

An Anglo French jet transport without the complicated bits could have been a Transall replacement in the early 70s.
 

Jemiba

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uk 75 said:
the Caravelle had a comet style nose.
AFAIK, it wasn't just "Comet style", but it WAS the nose of the Comet !
 

uk 75

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Jemiba

Apologies, the 50s are not really my period on aircraft, should have checked first.
 

Pioneer

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Something I was not aware of…..

Fact
The French government whose original intention was to place a major order for 300 Orenda Iroquois engines for the Dassault Mirage IV bomber, [but due to Canada’s uncertainty with the CF-105 Arrow program – and hence the Orenda Iroquois engines future] they chose to end negotiations in October 1958 and opted for the [far less powerful and technologically advanced] indigenous SNECMA Atar engine.

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Pioneer
 

Pioneer

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uk 75 said:
Fascinating stuff chaps. I had not thought to include the civil side but in fact Air France did order the Comet 1 and the Caravelle had a comet style nose.

Interestingly France did not go down the path of developing its own civilian airliners like the British, except for the lacklustre Dassault Mercure (thought this paved the way for French involvement in Airbus).

France and Germany were more successful than the UK in developing their own transport aircraft, the Transall C 160 though France had to buy additional C130s like Britain.

If France had had a more moderate ruler than Le Grand and if Marcel Dassault had not been so strong a personality, the actual aircraft builders seem to have worked okay together once the politics was out of the way.

A more powerful longer range Mirage IV would have been an excellent Valiant replacement for the RAF NATO operational theatre role.

If it had not been for Rolls Royce and BAC the UK might have been able to persuade the French and Germans to help develop a P1127 as a Hunter/Fiat G91 replacement.

An Anglo French jet transport without the complicated bits could have been a Transall replacement in the early 70s.
And don't forget the Alpha Jet trainer!
 

Archibald

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Pioneer said:
Something I was not aware of…..

Fact
The French government whose original intention was to place a major order for 300 Orenda Iroquois engines for the Dassault Mirage IV bomber, [but due to Canada’s uncertainty with the CF-105 Arrow program – and hence the Orenda Iroquois engines future] they chose to end negotiations in October 1958 and opted for the [far less powerful and technologically advanced] indigenous SNECMA Atar engine.

Regards
Pioneer
I heard a slightly different story. The Iroquois was not alone; considered were also the J-75, the RB-142 and the Olympus.
Most importantly, there were two different Mirage IV bombers.
The original Mirage IV-01 that flew in June 1959 was only a subscale demonstrator for the twice bigger Mirage IV-B, which was as big and heavy as a B-58 Hustler.
It weighed 60 tons, had a range of 4000 km and would have been able to strike Moscow without inflight refueling (no C-135FR)
Between June and September 1959 a prototype Mirage IV-B was being build but then it was cancelled. I'm a die hard fan of the Arrow, but that Mirage IV-B was to be powered by J-75s.
Pratt&Whitney and SNECMA make some deal in December 1959. SNECMA shares against an access to Pratt advanced engines. That led to the TF-104/TF-106/TF-306 saga of the 60's, and much later to the M53.
It didn't mattered however, since in De Gaulle vision foreign engines were unacceptable for the Force de Frappe - no spares, no bombers !
As such the IV-B was abandonned in favour of the Mirage IV-A, essentially an optimized Mirage IV-01 which did the best it could with the Atar 9.
Source (via internet archive)
http://web.archive.org/web/20050210183341/http://www.stratisc.org/partenaires/ihcc/ihcc_nuc1_Cabriere.html
 

JFC Fuller

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Thats my understanding of the story as well. The IV-B would apparently have come in at 140,000lbs though some French books I have seen say 50 tonnes which is only about 110,000lbs. I seem to recall that expenditure on the IV-B was about 40 billion Francs.
 

Pioneer

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I would love to see some drawings of the
twice bigger Mirage IV-B
!
Anyone got drawings please??
For this is what the design should have been! Far more effective and versatile!!

Regards
Pioneer
 

Michel Van

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the French British Mirage IVS Bomber proposal is quite divergent from the Mirage IV design
The fuselage is stretch 2ft to fit the british Spey turbofan engines
and it Cockpit got avionics of TSR-2 !

on P.1154, the french wet very interesting in VTOL aircraft and Dassault had try to get a Bristol VTOL engine for there MD 610.
with Anglo-French collaboration they had push the original P.1154 as a supersonic Harrier and not the Kerstal prototype.

i wonder if RAF had show interest in Mach 3 Mirage interceptor MD750, especial combine with british Ramjet technology
would be a spectacle
each time a SR-71 flies mach 3 over Britain and France , is get passed by Mirages...
 

sferrin

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Michel Van said:
the French British Mirage IVS Bomber proposal is quite divergent from the Mirage IV design
The fuselage is stretch 2ft to fit the british Spey turbofan engines
and it Cockpit got avionics of TSR-2 !

on P.1154, the french wet very interesting in VTOL aircraft and Dassault had try to get a Bristol VTOL engine for there MD 610.
with Anglo-French collaboration they had push the original P.1154 as a supersonic Harrier and not the Kerstal prototype.

i wonder if RAF had show interest in Mach 3 Mirage interceptor MD750, especial combine with british Ramjet technology
would be a spectacle
each time a SR-71 flies mach 3 over Britain and France , is get passed by Mirages...
How does a mach 3 aircraft pass a mach 3 aircraft?
 

Michel Van

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ups i forgot that,

the SR-71 makes mach 3.3 max
the MD750 design for mach 3.5 max or they take French MZ1-460 design with mach 4.2 max
 

Archibald

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There was a wonderful article on these super Mirage in Le Fana de l'aviation five years ago. One has to figure a Mig-25 with Mirage intakes and a delta wing.

The Spey Mirage IV is the Mirage IV* (star, no letter) and dates back from the post TSR-2 debacle, late 1965. F-111K was preferred - the reasonning being the Mirage IV lagged behind in avionics and low level flight. Quel dommage ! :-[

IMHO there were many, many opportunities for Anglo-french cooperation from 1958 to 1973. Naval interceptors aplenty (a naval Jaguar, a British Mirage G with a Spey, cooperation on a two-seat Crusader, a naval Mirage F1, the Br.1120 Sirrocco of 1958, French testing of the Harrier on the Foch in November 1973...)

As for the carriers, Foch and Clemenceau are too small for British standards (CVA-01 is nearly twice as big) but the bigger PA-58 Verdun may be a better start (around 1958).

Another possibility I'm exploring is a PH-75 / Invincible joint project after 1973. That would be formidable - imagine if the Spanish and Italian navies adopted the ship as a Harrier carrier. Three for Great Britain, one for France, two for Spain, two for Italy - a fleet of eight Euro commando / helo / Harrier carriers.
Most sources say the PH-75 was nuclear, but early on (1973) it had conventional machinery from the F67 frigates.
The French Navy really wanted a helo /commando carrier to replace old Arromanches, but the oil crisis and requirement creep (to nuclear propulsion) killed the project... only for it to return as the PA-75, future Charles de Gaulle and thus a Foch / Clemenceau successor. Arromanches replacement had to wait thirty years and the BPCs.
 

Caravellarella

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Jemiba said:
uk 75 said:
the Caravelle had a comet style nose.
AFAIK, it wasn't just "Comet style", but it WAS the nose of the Comet !
In truth, only the two prototype Caravelles were built with De Havilland-supplied Comet cockpits (for expediency); all other Caravelles (from the first static test specimen to the final Caravelle 12) were built with Sud-Aviation designed cockpit sections featuring ever larger glazing panels over time.

Terry (Caravellarella)
 

Kadija_Man

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Pioneer said:
I would love to see some drawings of the
twice bigger Mirage IV-B
!
Anyone got drawings please??
For this is what the design should have been! Far more effective and versatile!!

Regards
Pioneer
Your wish is my command...




[Source]
 

Archibald

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the Mirage IVB would have much saner flight characteristics than the B-58 which was kind of death trap - 116 build, 30 crashed, 25% loss rate... :eek:
 
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