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Amerika Bomber Ta-400 and others (Me-264 contenders),

newsdeskdan

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Skyblazer said:
Those Fw 300A blueprints are amazing. I have a feeling there was a third picture that you initially shared, newsdeskdan, but the link is apparently no longer working. Can you repost it? Thanks anyway!
Third one? I can't remember. What I can tell you is that the Fw 300A/Ta 400 was never intended to be an Amerika Bomber. It was for attacking Britain and shipping in the Atlantic - which is why there are so many drawings of it armed with Hs 293s etc. The only aircraft you could ever really say was designed with bombing America in mind was what became the Me 264. And I can't find a single reference to it as an 'Amerika Bomber'. Goring referred to it as an 'Amerika flugzeug' and I've got interrogated prisoners of war saying it was known as the 'USA bomber' or 'New York flugzeug' but the words 'Amerika' and 'Bomber' do not seem to appear together in any contemporary source.
The earliest mention I can find of 'Amerika Bomber' is in an American magazine printed in 1952, and it uses 'Amerika bomber' to refer to the Junkers EF132. In the 1970s 'Amerika Bomber' is usually used to refer to the Me 264, in the 1980s it tends to be used in connection with the Sanger rocket bomber, in the 1990s it refers to the Horten XVIII and in the 2000s and on it refers to the Me 264 again. You can see how the whole 'Amerika Bomber' myth grew up...
 

Stargazer2006

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newsdeskdan said:
Third one? I can't remember.
The reason I said this is because the first of your three attachments in that post that wouldn't be displayed at the time. Now it's showing. Lousy wi-fi I guess...

newsdeskdan said:
What I can tell you is that the Fw 300A/Ta 400 was never intended to be an Amerika Bomber. It was for attacking Britain and shipping in the Atlantic - which is why there are so many drawings of it armed with Hs 293s etc. The only aircraft you could ever really say was designed with bombing America in mind was what became the Me 264. And I can't find a single reference to it has an 'Amerika Bomber'. Goring referred to it as an 'Amerika flugzeug' and I've got interrogated prisoners of war saying it was known as the 'USA bomber' or 'New York flugzeug' but the words 'Amerika' and 'Bomber' do not seem to appear together in any contemporary source.
The earliest mention I can find of 'Amerika Bomber' is in an American magazine printed in 1952, and it uses 'Amerika bomber' to refer to the Junkers EF132. In the 1970s 'Amerika Bomber' is usually used to refer to the Me 264, in the 1980s it tends to be used in connection with the Sanger rocket bomber, in the 1990s it refers to the Horten XVIII and in the 2000s and on it refers to the Me 264 again. You can see how the whole 'Amerika Bomber' myth grew up...
Fascinating account! Thanks a lot for this newsdeskdan. Especially appreciated in those rapidly changing times of digital information that can be posted, modified, continue to exist in cache form with mistakes, and so forth. Each day that passes by sadly looks more and more like Orwell's 1984 to me, not just the states snooping on people, but also the constant rewriting of history... :'( :'(
 

newsdeskdan

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Skyblazer said:
newsdeskdan said:
Third one? I can't remember.
The reason I said this is because the first of your three attachments in that post that wouldn't be displayed at the time. Now it's showing. Lousy wi-fi I guess...

newsdeskdan said:
What I can tell you is that the Fw 300A/Ta 400 was never intended to be an Amerika Bomber. It was for attacking Britain and shipping in the Atlantic - which is why there are so many drawings of it armed with Hs 293s etc. The only aircraft you could ever really say was designed with bombing America in mind was what became the Me 264. And I can't find a single reference to it has an 'Amerika Bomber'. Goring referred to it as an 'Amerika flugzeug' and I've got interrogated prisoners of war saying it was known as the 'USA bomber' or 'New York flugzeug' but the words 'Amerika' and 'Bomber' do not seem to appear together in any contemporary source.
The earliest mention I can find of 'Amerika Bomber' is in an American magazine printed in 1952, and it uses 'Amerika bomber' to refer to the Junkers EF132. In the 1970s 'Amerika Bomber' is usually used to refer to the Me 264, in the 1980s it tends to be used in connection with the Sanger rocket bomber, in the 1990s it refers to the Horten XVIII and in the 2000s and on it refers to the Me 264 again. You can see how the whole 'Amerika Bomber' myth grew up...
Fascinating account! Thanks a lot for this newsdeskdan. Especially appreciated in those rapidly changing times of digital information that can be posted, modified, continue to exist in cache form with mistakes, and so forth. Each day that passes by sadly looks more and more like Orwell's 1984 to me, not just the states snooping on poeple, but also the constant rewriting of history... :'( :'(
One could argue that with 'Amerika flugzeug', 'USA bomber' and 'New York flugzeug' all used in contemporary sources, someone somewhere must've referred to the Me 264 as an 'Amerika bomber'. It seems likely that the Focke-Wulf design commonly referred to as the 'Fw 238' (Focke-Wulf never called it that, nor did the RLM) was a competitor for the same requirement as the Me 264, and a Junkers design that no longer seems to exist too (although it was probably somewhere along the lines of the EF100 or something otherwise related to the Ju 290 family). These were the three 'Amerika flugzeug' designs. There seem to have been some far-fetched 'maybe if we had two-stage mid-air refuelling' or 'maybe if we conquered the Azores and turned them into a gigantic air base' or 'maybe if we refuelled a BV 222 from a submarine' ideas but these never received any serious consideration.
Once Messerschmitt was chosen as the winner of the 'Amerika' requirement, and subsequently disgraced when it emerged that its calculations on range were wrong, a new requirement for a multi-purpose long-range aircraft was issued with the Ju 390 emerging as the winner (against a revised, smaller 'Fw 238' and an unknown six-engined Heinkel design).
The earliest Fw 300A/Ta 400 designs don't appear until late 1942 - some six months after that. So the Fw 300A/Ta 400 never really competed against the likes of the Ju 390, but did compete against the He 277. Neither of them had anything to do with America.
The He 274 was definitely in a class of its own, being specifically designed to avoid fighters by flying at high altitude. Its range was relatively poor - just enough to get it to western Britain, or Scotland, and back - so there's no way that was an 'Amerika bomber' either.
 

Stargazer2006

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Just found out we have a second topic on the Ta 400. Would it be a good idea to merge them?
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,24994.0/all.html

Indeed, topics merged
 

blackkite

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I feel there are some difference between these BMW803 engine pictures, especially mechanical supercharger which located after part of the engine.
I can understand the first picture, but the second picture is hard to understand for me. With two stage supercharger type?
pic1.jpg
pic2.JPG
 
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blackkite

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Upper picture correspond to these drawings.
Mechanical supercharger seems to be single stage.

There was a large gap between No.2 and No.3 engine cylinder row in the second drawing.
But there was no such a gap in the first drawing.

The first drawing shows that the fresh air ducts to supercharger seems to locate front end and back end of the supercharger.
And the supercharged air ducts to the engine cylinders seems to locate middle of the supercharger.
But the second drawing shows that the fresh air nozzles seems to locate middle of the supercharger.
And the supercharged air ducts to the engine cylinders seems to locate front end and back end of the supercharger same as #46 top picture.
Perhaps there were some designs for BMW803 engine.

This engine is pusher type with radiator cooling fan. I can't find fresh air duct which connected to supercharger.
 

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blackkite

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This paper shows that BMW803 had two stage supercharger.
Tank2.jpg
 

blackkite

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Another type BMW803 engine pictures.
PIC3.jpgPIC4.jpg
 
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newsdeskdan

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Although, none of the aircraft you show images of was ever intended to bomb America. Particularly the He 274, which was designed as a high-altitude bomber and only had a range of 2200 to 2500 miles. I believe that the He 177's range was even less. The Ju 488 was designed for anti-shipping missions like the Fw 300A/Ta 400, rather than carrying a bomb load all the way to the US.
The original 'Amerika bomber' was the Me 264, although the RLM's calculations (in contrast to those of Messerschmitt) found that it didn't actually have the range to carry out that mission. Focke-Wulf and Junkers both designed 'Amerika' aircraft (as we have seen elsewhere on the forum recently with drawings of Focke-Wulf's 1941 Fernkampfflugzeug designs - Junkers' designs were the Ju 290 and 390) but they were much larger and heavier than the Me 264.
Incidentally, since I wrote those earlier posts in this thread back in 2016, I have discovered a single contemporary use of the phrase 'Amerika bomber' - used in reference to the Me 264.
 
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Archibald

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And the He-274 ended in France, launching mockups of jet bombers that never were...
 
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