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marauder2048

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Neither Meteor nor AIM-120D really have an answer for towed or other advanced expendable decoys.
You need time for the seeker to discriminate between the decoys and aircraft with even say (clean) Super Hornet
levels of signature reduction.

Ideally that discrimination would be achieved by IIR which wants slower missile speeds for thermal reasons or
MMW which because of the narrower beam width needs more time to cover the same handover volume
as a lower frequency seeker.

So one approach to buying time is coasting to seeker takeover at comparatively slow speeds (good thermally for IIR),
discriminating and then boosting for end-game.
 

marauder2048

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[Another concern it raises is with the choice of JP10 for the FMRAAM sustainer, suggesting that the corrosive properties of this fuel cause doubts about suitability for long-term storage.

Sorry. I missed this. JP-10 has been shown to have a shelf-life of 30 years in missiles. Even at the time it was known to be at least 18 years. So this was utter FUD.
 
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SpudmanWP

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The DoD is constantly upgrading the ECCM capabilities of the AMRAAM so towed decoys might not be as big of an issue as you think.

That being said, I agree that a dual-mode seeker is a much better option.
 

marauder2048

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The DoD is constantly upgrading the ECCM capabilities of the AMRAAM so towed decoys might not be as big of an issue as you think.

That being said, I agree that a dual-mode seeker is a much better option.
Sure. There are advanced signal processing techniques that, for example, try to discriminate based on subtle
differences in decoy and platform velocities.

But there really are no generalized ECCMs for active* microwave seekers against advanced towed decoys beyond
trajectory shaping and/or a bigger warhead.

* I'll leave out track-via-missile and other two-way datalink enabled off-board assistance from the firing platform.
 

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You might be better off firing a MALD-J at the AEW (I am assuming you meant AWACS) as it has a massive range advantage over a Meteor, it can do it's own jamming, and it runs cool enough to not trigger MAWS on the way in. Put a IIR seeker & a 20lb warhead in it and you are golden as a way to take out ISR, IFR, AEW, AWACS, etc.
True but a MALD-based weapon doesn't have the versatility for use in other A2A roles.
 

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A 2-stage CUDA would allow you to fill both needs. 2-stage for long range, single-stage for packing them in. One missile for both missions for cost effectiveness. (I'd want them to use a finless booster 8"-10" dia. if they could fit them in without taking more than a single AIM-120 equivalent spot.)
I just had a fun idea for a flexible missile system. Set up a two-stage missile but have the design such that if you needed a short-range engagement, the launcher could separate the stages and each one could operate as an independent short-range missile, but for long range, the stages remained linked and the "boost" stage would just self-destruct after the "terminal" stage was separated and boosting on its own.
 

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A 2-stage CUDA would allow you to fill both needs. 2-stage for long range, single-stage for packing them in. One missile for both missions for cost effectiveness. (I'd want them to use a finless booster 8"-10" dia. if they could fit them in without taking more than a single AIM-120 equivalent spot.)
I just had a fun idea for a flexible missile system. Set up a two-stage missile but have the design such that if you needed a short-range engagement, the launcher could separate the stages and each one could operate as an independent short-range missile, but for long range, the stages remained linked and the "boost" stage would just self-destruct after the "terminal" stage was separated and boosting on its own.
That's a two-stage missile dragging along a lot of redundant sensors, control units, steering actuators, warheads/lethality enhancers, etc.
 

SpudmanWP

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That's a two-stage missile dragging along a lot of redundant sensors, control units, steering actuators, warheads/lethality enhancers, etc.
How will it have twice the warhead, sensors, etc?

The duplication in booster-related gimbaled TVC is more than made up by the increased efficiency once the booster is jettisoned. This is why the naval Standard series of SAMs uses boosters instead of single, giant SAMs.
 

sferrin

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That's a two-stage missile dragging along a lot of redundant sensors, control units, steering actuators, warheads/lethality enhancers, etc.
How will it have twice the warhead, sensors, etc?

The duplication in booster-related gimbaled TVC is more than made up by the increased efficiency once the booster is jettisoned. This is why the naval Standard series of SAMs uses boosters instead of single, giant SAMs.
He was suggesting a booster that could also act as a missile.
 
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SpudmanWP

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ah.. ok

That's what I get for not reading ALL of the posts ;)
 

Forest Green

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How about 1 missile that carries 5 or 6 independently targetable explosive darts that all seek out the cockpit of their given target fighter?
 

sferrin

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Sounds unnecessarily complicated.
 

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sferrin

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In_A_Dream

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I wonder if we'll ever see the development of a 2 stage missile, where a missile essentially splits into 2 parts: one part emitting and providing the guidance, and the other (the actual warhead) receiving passive signals until it reaches its target.
 

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I wonder if we'll ever see the development of a 2 stage missile, where a missile essentially splits into 2 parts: one part emitting and providing the guidance, and the other (the actual warhead) receiving passive signals until it reaches its target.
technically speaking, very unlikely as it would means 2 missiles in one. You were basically describing SARH or maybe command guidance.

The seeker electronics roughly take about half or third of the missile's length. Your scheme basically doubles it . each part will have to carry basically their own guidance system, some sort of motor and double amount of battery as both will operate almost independently of each other.
 

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Neither Meteor nor AIM-120D really have an answer for towed or other advanced expendable decoys.
You need time for the seeker to discriminate between the decoys and aircraft with even say (clean) Super Hornet
levels of signature reduction.
Well, the Cold War solution to all towed decoy & eccm problems were to use nuclear-tipped missile...
 

RLBH

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Neither Meteor nor AIM-120D really have an answer for towed or other advanced expendable decoys.
You need time for the seeker to discriminate between the decoys and aircraft with even say (clean) Super Hornet
levels of signature reduction.
Well, the Cold War solution to all towed decoy & eccm problems were to use nuclear-tipped missile...
Towed is relatively easy - when presented with two targets, one behind the other, go for the one in front. Likewise dropped decoys - go for the one that isn't moving in a ballistic arc. Something like MALD is tricky, which is of course the entire point of MALD.
 

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Towed is relatively easy - when presented with two targets, one behind the other, go for the one in front. Likewise dropped decoys - go for the one that isn't moving in a ballistic arc. Something like MALD is tricky, which is of course the entire point of MALD.
If the towed or dropped decoy is jamming you as well it's not so easy.
 

stealthflanker

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Towed is relatively easy - when presented with two targets, one behind the other, go for the one in front. Likewise dropped decoys - go for the one that isn't moving in a ballistic arc. Something like MALD is tricky, which is of course the entire point of MALD.
If things really that easy.

The thing is the decoy may "Seduce" the missile, but the missile may have no real way to resolve which is the decoy and which is the target.

Active radar homing missile is carrying a radar seeker, which also bound to any limitation to a radar is. One important thing is the angular resolution which equals to roughly distance multipled by the beamwidth of the radar seeker.

Typical ARH seeker antenna in a missile have about 0.2 m diameter antenna and works in Ku or X-band (2-3 cm wavelength) This roughly gives about 7-10 degrees of beamwidth. ARH seeker may usually goes active at 20 km from target position, so multiply that distance (in meters) with the beamwidth (radians) gives you about 3750 m. The seeker cannot resolve object separated no less than that distance. It will just go to where the return is the strongest.. Thus the towed decoy may have a very good chance in fooling the missile.

There is technique called "super-resolution" but i havent heard about its application in current military radar. It is supposedly to allow discrimination between target and decoy as well as one countermeasure against sophisticated Cross Eye jamming.

Another thing a missile can do is to actually having a secondary or tertiary seeker that works in other band, such as Infra Red or a Passive seeker which home into another emission target could emit maybe L or S-band datalink.
 

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Typical ARH seeker antenna in a missile have about 0.2 m diameter antenna and works in Ku or X-band (2-3 cm wavelength) This roughly gives about 7-10 degrees of beamwidth. ARH seeker may usually goes active at 20 km from target position, so multiply that distance (in meters) with the beamwidth (radians) gives you about 3750 m. The seeker cannot resolve object separated no less than that distance. It will just go to where the return is the strongest.. Thus the towed decoy may have a very good chance in fooling the missile.
There is technique called "super-resolution" but i havent heard about its application in current military radar. It is supposedly to allow discrimination between target and decoy as well
Can't they use monopulse technique to improve the resolution?
monopulse-radar12.png
 

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Probably depends on the missile. If they were trying to unify to one missile there's no reason that capability couldn't be on an AIM-120 sized missile.
Perhaps it is a coincidence but I believe the Block III Aim-9X was expected to become operational on Navy Super Hornet's in the 2021-2023 time-frame. It was cancelled in FY16 probably during the time when the JATM competition was ongoing. JATM is expected to become operational on the SH in the 2022-2023 time-frame. If the JATM has significantly improved HOBS performance compared to the AMRAAM, and has some sort of multi-mode or jam resistant seeker, it would make total sense for the Block III 9X to have been cancelled and the entire AMRAAM and AIM-9X family being replaced by a combination of the JATM and something like the CUDA/Peregrine like missiles.
 
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bring_it_on

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So one approach to buying time is coasting to seeker takeover at comparatively slow speeds (good thermally for IIR),
discriminating and then boosting for end-game.
THRUST VECTORING A FLIGHT VEHICLE DURING HOMING USING A MULTI-PULSE MOTOR
Assignee:
Lockheed Martin Corporation
Application granted:
2006

A method and apparatus for thrust vectoring a flight vehicle during homing are disclosed. The flight vehicle includes a body; a plurality of attitude control mechanisms on the body; a multi-pulse motor housed at least partially in the body; and a control unit housed in the body. The control unit generates Signals controlling an actuation of the attitude control mechanisms and the multi-pulse motor to initiate a follow-on burn of the multi-pulse motor to effect a maneuver directed by the actuation of the attitude control mechanisms. The method includes conserving a Second burn of a dual pulse motor until target acquisition; acquiring a target; actuating a attitude control mechanism for the flight vehicle to alter the flight vehicle's heading, and initiating the Second burn.
 

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sferrin

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"The method includes conserving a Second burn of a dual pulse motor until target acquisition; acquiring a target; actuating a attitude control mechanism for the flight vehicle to alter the flight vehicle's heading, and initiating the Second burn. "

That is basically what PAC-3 MSE does.

mfc-pac-3-mse-photo-03-t.jpg
 

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"The method includes conserving a Second burn of a dual pulse motor until target acquisition; acquiring a target; actuating a attitude control mechanism for the flight vehicle to alter the flight vehicle's heading, and initiating the Second burn. "

That is basically what PAC-3 MSE does.
Yeah very similar, although in this case, as marauder mentioned it may add additional utility as it gives the multi-band/multi-spectral seeker and/or networking more time during coast to help properly discriminate before kicking the second stage. It could also allow the use of higher frequency seekers or combined RF and IIR seekers. Interesting that the patent had an Air to Air scenario envisioned and depicted. The patent also speaks of thrust vectoring being a part of the final stage agility during burn.

Would definitely fit nicely with what Lockheed was known to be doing in the 2000-2015 time-frame in terms of mission capability and R&D. Unless there is a whole stream of research that the company was pursuing that we don't know about, its quite likely that they'll use what they've sort of matured with these programs.

If employed during a medium ranged engagement they could fire the pulses in rapid succession and get a much faster time to target compared to something else that cruises at Mach 2-3 to get extended range performance.
 
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So the missile will first do a Boost, gaining energy then, glide down until acquisition phase which then 2nd part of the propellant will start. I guess ?
 

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So the missile will first do a Boost, gaining energy then, glide down until acquisition phase which then 2nd part of the propellant will start. I guess ?
It could do that. If it needs time to discriminate or network it could leverage a slower coast, identify the target, use its ACM's for precise maneuvers and fire the second pulse and build up terminal speed. Alternatively, it could keep that slow(er) speed coast period short. The DOD is also investing in SRM's that can go through multiple cycles of extinguishment and restart so perhaps that is also a possibility long term. If it has ACM's there should be some significant terminal maneuvering capability independent of kinematic state or TVC.

As Marauder alluded to in his post, compared to the AMRAAM P3I in the 1990's where a lot of focus was on endgame kinematics and extending range, the problem set for the post 2030 air combat environment is probably more focused on seeker concepts, and how that mates with the other aspects of your missile. This is logical given how threat has evolved from say early 2000's (just one VLO design and DRFM CM's still in shorty supply) to say 2020 (multiple VLO programs and widespread use of DRFM jamming and other ECM/survivability aids).

A higher degree of altitude, agility, and velocity modulation may be a very important factor when the complexity of your seeker, guidance, and networking package is significantly enhanced and your target employs RCS suppression and/or highly effective ECM. This could be one of the reasons the USAF walked away from the VFDR solution which it had readily available for T-3 flight testing.

Keep in mind this is all us guessing based on what is public. Who knows whether Lockheed employs any of this in its JATM desing.

In many high performance flight vehicles maneuverability is a prized performance characteristic. Such flight Vehicles frequently are fired at targets that are themselves highly maneuverable. The targets, understandably, Seldom wait for the flight vehicle and try to evade it. This is a much greater concern to the flight vehicle as it approaches the target because Shorter distances yield Shorter reaction times. Sometimes, these flight vehicles are themselves fired upon. In these situations, maneuverability may be desired to help evade the weapon fired at them. Designers frequently choose larger fins for greater maneuverability over Small fins for Speed in these types of flight vehicles.

One attempt to compensate for these kinds of tradeoffs experiments with motor technologies. Rocket motors be categorized in a number of ways, e.g., by whether they employ solid fuel or liquid fuel. Traditionally, solid rocket motors burned in Stages, and once per Stage. Submarine based ICBMs are classic examples of this technology. More recently, Some rockets have employed what are known as “dual pulse' motors that burn twice per Stage, although their practical applications are still relatively rare. The Boeing Company's AGM-69-A Short Range Attack Missile (“SRAM”) II and Lockheed Martin Corporation's Javelin shoulder launched missile Systems are examples. Dual pulse motors have been found useful in improving range, alleviating thermal problems, and achieving higher end Speed.

Conventional uses of dual pulse motors cause other problems, however. For example, the increased high end Speed exacerbates the problem of decreased reaction time. Another approach to providing terminal maneuverability is to provide what are known as “divert motors.” Divert motors are essentially side facing thrusters. The principal consequence of the divert motors is to move the missile Sideways, bodily, relative to the current heading, as represented by the arrow 108. Divert motors are a separate System that can cause complications, Such as difficulty in integrating into the control systems of the missile . The divert motors also add cost and weight to the missile 100, and generally decrease the reliability of the overall missile System. The present invention is directed to resolving, or at least reducing, one or all of the problems mentioned above.

The present invention, in its various aspects and embodiments, includes method and apparatus for thrust vectoring a flight vehicle during homing. The flight vehicle comprises a body; a plurality of attitude control mechanisms on the body; a multi-pulse motor housed at least partially in the body; and a control unit housed in the body. The control unit generates Signals controlling an actuation of the attitude control mechanisms and the multi-pulse motor to initiate a follow-on burn of the multi-pulse motor to effect a maneuver directed by the actuation of the attitude control mechanisms. The method comprises conserving a Second burn of a dual pulse motor until target acquisition; acquiring a target; actuating a attitude control mechanism for the flight vehicle to alter the flight vehicle's heading, and initiating the second burn...

The flight vehicle, in the illustrated embodiment, is an interceptor missile. In operation, the flight vehicle performs a mission profile in two phases. In the first phase, the flight vehicle locates and acquires the target before entering the Second phase, wherein it homes in on the target. The multi-pulse motor burns its fuel in two pulses, just as does any other dual pulse motor. However, the present invention, through the control algorithm encoded on the program Storage medium and executed by the computing device , conserves the Second pulse of the burn until the Second phase of the mission profile. More particularly, in the illustrated invention, the multi pulse motor A30 is a solid-fueled, dual pulse motor.

As shown in FIG. 3, the present invention begins by conserving a second burn of a multi-pulse motor until target acquisition . Eventually, the flight vehicle acquires a target. This conservation is performed by the control unit , through the execution of the software control algorithm encoded on the program Storage medium by the computing device . Target acquisition may be made by any technique known to the art. AS used herein, the term “target acquisition' means location of the target by the onboard sensors of the flight vehicle . Furthermore, target acquisition marks the point at which the flight vehicle begins “homing” on the target. As used herein, the term “homing” identifies that part of the mission that follows target acquisition.

As is shown in FIG. 4A, the flight vehicle will be moving on a first flight path. Typically, the flight vehicle will need a new flight path, e.g., the flight path 405, to intercept or strike the target. The flight vehicle is shown oriented in the direction of the first flight path 400 at the time of target acquisition, but this may not always be the case. Note that there is no burn from the multi-pulse motor 230 shown in FIG. 4A.

To achieve the new flight path 405, the flight vehicle 200 actuates an attitude control mechanism, e.g., a control Surface 220 (at 315) for the flight vehicle 200, as indicated by the arrow 415 in FIG. 4B, to alter the current flight path 400 of the flight vehicle 200 to the new flight path 405. Although only the one control Surface 220 is indicated as being actuated, any maneuver will typically include actuation of two, three, or more attitude control mechanisms. The deter mination of which attitude control mechanisms are actuated will depend on the combination of change in pitch, yaw, and roll needed to perform the desired maneuver. These details will be implementation Specific and may be implemented in accordance with conventional practice. Note that, in Some Scenarios, the attitude control mechanism may already be actuated for the effectuation of a previously desired maneu ver Such that the attitude control mechanism may already by actuated when the target is acquired. Thus, the actuation of the attitude control mechanism (at 315) upon target acqui Sition does not preclude prior actuation.

The flight vehicle 200 also initiates the second burn for the multi-pulse motor 230 (at 320). Note that the initiation of the second burn is indicated in FIG. 4B and in FIG. 4C by the plume 420. The second burn generates a vectored thrust that generates a relatively large "Sideways' thrust component (represented by the arrow 425 in FIG. 4C) as the heading of the flight vehicle 200 changes. The vectored thrust 425 alters the flight path of the flight vehicle 200 in the direction of the new flight path 405.

Note that the illustrated embodiment initiates the second burn not only after target acquisition, but also after actuation of the control Surface 220. However, the invention is not so limited. The Second burn may be initiated after target acquisition but before actuation of the control Surface 220, for instance. Furthermore, the illustrated embodiment only changes the heading of the flight vehicle 200 until it is consonant with the new flight path 405. Some alternative embodiments may choose to control the heading of the flight vehicle 200 temporarily beyond the direction of the new flight path. This will generate a vectored thrust that will more quickly maneuver the flight vehicle 200 to the new flight path 405. However, the heading will need to be corrected back in a timely fashion to the new flight path 405 to prevent “overshooting” the new flight path 405. The vectored thrust of the second burn permits the use of smaller, lighter fins 250. Although the drawings are not necessarily to Scale, the difference is illustrated by compar ing the size of the fins 104 relative the overall size of the flight vehicle 100 in FIG. 1 and the size of the fins 250 relative to the overall size of the flight vehicle 200 in, e.g., FIG. 4A. The invention in this embodiment consequently realizes both the Speed and weight advantages of using Smaller fins with the range, thermal loading, and Speed advantages of dual pulse motors without incurring the complexity of using divert motors. Indeed, simulations have shown that the invention may have a relatively extraordinary beneficial impact on the maneuverability of Such a flight vehicle. Furthermore, the increase in Speed does not adversely affect target acquisition time Since the acceleration occurs after target acquisition. Note also that, although the invention permits the use of Smaller, lighter fins, this is not required. The invention may be employed with fins of conventional size in Some embodiments.

AS was noted earlier, liquid-fueled motors may be burned Several times. In theory, Solid-fuel motors can also be constructed to achieve more than two burns by further Segmenting the propellant Supply. Thus, Some embodiments might not be limited to a “first burn and a “second burn.”..
 
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REQUEST FOR INFORMATION: Technical Experimentation: Long Range Air-to-Air Missile Technologies

This Request for Information (RFI) titled Technical Experimentation: Long Range Air-to-Air Missile Technologies provides an opportunity for respondents to interact with the Government to determine how technology development efforts and ideas may support or enhance DOD capability needs. The purpose of this RFI is to facilitate a collaborative relationship between Government and industry to promote the identification and assessment of emerging technologies.
 

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sferrin

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I wonder if they're limiting it to AMRAAM dia. or allowing all the way up to AARGM-ER. Wonder what the largest dia. AAM you could fit in the F-22 if you accepted 2 per bank instead of 3.
 

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You could probably increase the length a little bit and still meet requirements for 6 in the F-22 or F-35 bay. Perhaps even minor increases in diameter could be possible.

BTW, what's the missile in the first pic?

 

sferrin

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You could probably increase the length a little bit and still meet requirements for 6 in the F-22 or F-35 bay. Perhaps even minor increases in diameter could be possible.

BTW, what's the missile in the first pic?

Just something I threw together. 10" booster, hit-to-kill upper stage.
 
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