overscan (PaulMM)

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27 December 2005
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Thanks to Evan, heres a nice PDF of a British Aerospace Harrier II Plus brochure showing it in RN colours.


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Thanks Evan,

very nice artwork...it seems an Squadron/Signal in Action cover
*smile* It's scans of an official McDD/BAE brochure I picked up on E-Bay. it is official.
I was going through some old discs and I found some clip art obtained back when I was working for Boeing-Rocketdyne. I thought these items of interest:


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fightingirish said:
A MDD AV-8B flew with wingtip rails during the 90's.

I know, I've got pics if anyone wants them. The one shown here also has stretches to the fuselage and a larger spine that current AV-8Bs.
Yes the wingtip Sidewinder equiped AV-8B Harrier II flew on 30 November 1994.
Has anyone got photos of this test aircraft?

Pioneer said:
Yes the wingtip Sidewinder equiped AV-8B Harrier II flew on 30 November 1994.
Has anyone got photos of this test aircraft?


Yep, drop me a note with your email address adn I'll send 'em off.

Two pics attached, of the BAe Kingston Harrier GR.5(K) with a 250sq ft wing and of the early Sea Harrier FRS.2 proposal.


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Mike you don't happen to have a 3-view of the GR5 versions do you ?


Cheers Mike that will do nicely,

Now got the lottery numbers for tomoorw night as well ? ;)

harrier said:
Like this..?

I have the impression that definitive rebuilt Harrier for the RAF would have featured a standard GR.3 nose section.

The Sea Harrier cockpit would have made tremendous sense for new built "big wing" airframes, but in the absence of export customers, the rebuilding GR.3s seems to have been the most likely scenario.
I have the impression that the very last "big wing" first generation Harrier proposal to the RAF would have looked like this:


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See my post above (I think we crossed in timing). This is the original re-winging idea (1976) with LERX added, so dated about 1978. It is the Salamander GA I mentioned, I forgot it had LERX. The other GA is from 1980.
harrier said:
See my post above (I think we crossed in timing). This is the original re-winging idea (1976) with LERX added, so dated about 1978. It is the Salamander GA I mentioned, I forgot it had LERX. The other GA is from 1980.

So the 3-view I posted is from 1978, and the 3-view that you posted represents the definitive "big wing" Harrier I proposal? Did the Sea Harrier nose section indicate the presence of the Blue Fox, or similarly sized, radar set?

It isn't hard to see why the Harrier II, with its very austere avionics fit, was the cheaper alternative.
The dates should be OK, but are from memory. The 'Sea Harrier' nose would not have radar, just more space for LRMTS as it was cramped on the GR.3. Plus space for 'later'.
I have one or two. Will dig them out and scan, perhaps in a few days though.
2 views of the rewinged GR3 project


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3 view of a earlier new build Big Wing Harrier.

Big Wings from Kingston, Air International Sept 1979


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overscan said:
Finally, a little OT: AV-16 :)
Ooooh! Looky what I found on my hard drive:


I thought the AV-16 had a more F-16 style canopy with a forward section hinged upward and a fixed aft section?
overscan said:
Finally, a little OT: AV-16 :)

Ah, one of the supersonic AV-16 proposals., looks like what I believe was labeled the S-6 version.
overscan said:
AV-16 was a whole bunch of configurations, the one I posted was 6 I think.
The one I based my illustration on was the S-6, I think there's a 3v of it one of the BSP books (can't remember which one right off hand, though).
The Artwork and 3 view in BSP:B are for the earlier AV-16 that formed the basis for the first next gen Harrier back in the early 70's and was for the looks of it the basis for the Harrier II. I think the AV-16S were slightly later looking for a more supersonice performance and are might be in the BSP:F chapter with the 1216.

According to the listings I've seen, all the AV-16 studies, both subsonic and supersonic fall in the HS.1184/1185 range with the AV-16S-6 being the most studied supersonic version. I'm certain, though, that they did inform further studies and developments.
The subsonic ones came under P1184 and supersonic under P1185. They were done for the US Navy alongside other variants of the '84 and '85 for the RAF to AST.396. Jane's All the World's Aircraft say that the Sea Harrier was the P1184, but that is wrong.

As I understand it all the S variants up to 6 were about equally studied. They formed a 'spectrum' of options for the US Navy, from a basic AV-16A with PCB through to the essentially P1154-like S6. The latter was publicised most as it looked the raciest, although it seems a 'quick and cheap' wooden model of it was tested for HGI (see pic in Sweetman's Aircraft 2000 IIRC).

The AV-16S informed further studies in part by showing 'how not to do it' as much as how to. Initially a FBW variant of the S6 formed the first P1205 versions. However, the use of PCB plus a single rear fuselage was seen as unworkable by some, which led ultimately to the P1216.

That is the short version!
Could the equipment fitted in the nose of RAF Harrier GR5 etc have been fitted into an underfuselage or underwing pod so leaving the nose free for radar?

Could this have been done at a later stage?
Wasn't it in effect done with the MDD AV-8B+, even without using a pod, but by
repositioning the laser ranging equipment to the upper nose, behind the radom
for the AN/APG-65 ? Self-designation of targets wasn't possible, even for later marks,
with the built-in sytem, AFAIK, so at least the USMC Harriers were cleared to carry
the Litening II pod.
If I recall correctly, the system in the nose of the AV-8B (and presumably the Harrier GR.5) is the Hughes Angle Rate Bombing System, taken from the A-4M, and is a daylight-only electro-optical targeting system, which is why they put the GEC Marconi TICM II navigation FLIR in a blister in top of the nose. The ARBS was a good system, but long obsolete. The USMC met the precison targeting requirement with Northrop's Litening II - the UK has just ordered the Lockheed Sniper XR.
A picture of the AV-16 as it appeared in an issue of Naval Aviation News, many years ago.


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