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A CL-84 & Convair 200 "partnership" for SCS and VSS.

Archibald

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It just dawned on me, reading a thread on the USN V-22 Osprey variant - the COD to replace the C-2 Greyhound.
For all their respective flaws, fact is that the V-22 and F-35B open brand new capabilities. For example, a V-22 could refuel a F-35B and then both could land on a USMC amphib.

Now we could have had similar capabilities in the late 70's. Had the Canadair CL-84 been bought by the USN, and the Convair 200 picked instead of the shitty Rockwell XFV-12.
Also XV-15 tilt rotor.

Imagine... Wasp LHA, Iwo Jima LPH, Essex carriers... SCS, VSS... what might-have-been.
 

apparition13

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Not just then. I was just reading about the CL-84 (in Convair Advanced Designs 2) and the larger 84-8 design for the SCS had a four hour patrol time at 150 miles and a top speed of 440 mph. Imagine that (or its successor) in ASW, AEW, COD, etc. operating from Queen Elizabeth, or Charles DeGaulle, or Cavour, or Izumo, and the like.

But to the scenario, I suspect it would make small carriers really attractive, and there might have been a proliferation of them among navies that had carriers but had to give them up. ASW carriers could patrol much larger areas, and much further from the carrier. Small carriers could act as fleet carriers, with AEW and fighters, perhaps supplemented by Harriers for CAS support. Essentially a return of the WW2 CVE, used in ASW, amphibious assault support, CAS, even the odd fleet action. The 200 and 84-8 wouldn't the capability of the Tomcat and Hawkeye, but they'd be a lot more effective than Sea Harriers and helicopter AEW.

I also suspect the XV-15 would go nowhere; there was also an assault version* of the CL-84-8, which had capacity of 22. Given it would have been over 100 mph faster, the XV-15 wouldn't look near as attractive. And medium tiltwings could have been deployed 25-30 years earlier than the Osprey.

What I really wonder about is what second generation tilt-wings would be capable of, and what a follow up to the 200 (Vought TF120 anyone?) would look like. And the real kicker, what might VSTOL look like today with potentially a couple more generations of VSTOL production and development?

*The full list in the Convair book for the potential 84-8 variants is ASW, AEW, Tanker, COD, Assault Transport, SAR, and ASMD (anti ship missile defense). There was also an attack variant of the earlier and smaller design.
 

Archibald

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It is really a shame CL-84 was never ordered and then XV-15 - and later V-22 took three more decades and 42 dead to get operational.
What could be the POD for an operational CL-84 ?

Attached, comparison between CL-84 and XV-15. Not only did the XV-15 used the CL-84 engines, it also used its landing gear...
 

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riggerrob

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We could also predict that more ships lik Atlantic Conveyor would be taken up from trade.
Wrap idle loaded with pre-positioned containers, she could set sail in a couple of days.
Specialized containers could hold emergency floatation below the waterline. Few bunks and cafeterias I board minimize casualties. Outboard containers armed with Gatling close in AAA. All topped by a flight deck.
 

uk 75

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apparition13

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The last post in this thread makes it clear that hefting those deadweight lift jets around was a dealbreaker for the Convair even though it doesnt make the Rockwell bird any less cxxp.
The artwork and midels in this thread are achingly pretty. The Marines had the Harrier and without their buy in you have to wait till JCA-JSF-F35.
The USMC circa 2000 =/= the USN circa 1975. A dealbreaker in 2000 is not necessarily a dealbreaker in the mid-70s.

By the way, this thread:


has a similar idea, though less posts.
 

uk 75

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I have no problem with the idea of imagining what a Convair 200 and CL84 combination could have looked like in service and any devices to get them there. With one proviso which I am always prepared to have in my posts, a nod to why they did not happen in reality.
 

Archibald

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The last post in this thread makes it clear that hefting those deadweight lift jets around was a dealbreaker for the Convair even though it doesnt make the Rockwell bird any less cxxp.
The artwork and midels in this thread are achingly pretty. The Marines had the Harrier and without their buy in you have to wait till JCA-JSF-F35.
The USMC circa 2000 =/= the USN circa 1975. A dealbreaker in 2000 is not necessarily a dealbreaker in the mid-70s.

By the way, this thread:


has a similar idea, though less posts.
And the guy who posted it stole my pseudo, Archibald... oh well forget it. o_O
 

uk 75

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Er I am confused. How do we have 2 Archibalds and two threads on more or less the same subject?

Both threads are very interesting. I also tried to get a discussion on these VSTOL aircraft and related ships in my thread about a second Carter Presidency.

I went back to the Friedman book on US Aircraft Carriers.

The US had planned to build specialised ASW carriers to operate S2 and helos but ended up using Essex classes as CVSs. Vietnam and the arrival of the S3 Viking saw ASW assets move aboard the big CVAs turning them into CVs.

The Sea Control Ship and later iterations recognised that more escorts were needed to protect Atlantic convoys. The S3 needed quite a big platform to operate from, so a family of VSTOL aircraft were needed.

The UK abandoned fixed wing ASW aboard ship after the Gannet. There was simply no room on the small RN carriers for these and fighters/attackers. The Sea King in different versions becomes the ASW helo for both USN and RN.

However, if more money had been available, an ASW carrier force for US and NATO allies to support the big CVA attack carriers would have been valuable. Take away the Vietnam War and the Essex class would have had more life years as CVS into the 70s but there would also have been money for replacements.
A VSTOL ship using one of the 1970s fighter and ASW/AEW/COD planes would have been a good candidate. Cooperation with the RN (Hermes and Bulwark as Essex style ASW carriers) would have continued with the Invincibles looking more like carriers than cruisers.
Now the Grumman 200 and CL84 might have been worth a punt.
Canada and Netherlands might have bought Essexes to replace Bonnie and Karel D. in the late 60s and then the new VSTOL ships at the end of the 70s.
 

Archibald

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Er I am confused. How do we have 2 Archibalds and two threads on more or less the same subject?
Woops. Seems my atempt at self-deprecation miserably failed :p
 

uk 75

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Woops. I can be pretty stupid at times lol
 

apparition13

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