• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

1946 USAAF Penetration Fighter (XF-88, XF-90)

devi

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Jul 17, 2006
Messages
118
Reaction score
1
Hi friends.

I know, that:
Initial attempts to produce jet-powered fighters with the endurance of piston-engined aircraft (e. g. the Bell XP-83 and the Convair XP-81) were disappointing, and in early 1946, the USAAF informally requested proposals for a "penetration fighter" with a combat radius of at least 900 miles and a performance capable of meeting all opposing fighters on more than equal terms. In addition, the USAAF wanted to keep the gross weight of the aircraft below 15,000 pounds. They didn't ask for much, did they? :) (J. Baugher).

I know:

1) McDonnell Model 36------------------XP-88-------XF-88
2) Lockheed Model TDN L-153-------XP-90-------XF-90
3) Convair Model ?

Do not know still what firms participated and with what projects?
 

Matej

Multiuniversal creator
Joined
Feb 13, 2006
Messages
2,617
Reaction score
43
Website
www.hitechweb.genezis.eu
http://www.hitechweb.genezis.eu/fightersAP02.htm

North American NA-157 (F-86A derivate)(intermediate designation F-86C) YF-93A
McDonnell Douglas Model 36 (intermediate designation XP-88) XF-88
Lockheed Model 90 XF-90

Nice info about XF-90 can be found in Lockheed Skunk Works by Jay Miller, Aerofax Ltd.
 

devi

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Jul 17, 2006
Messages
118
Reaction score
1
Hi Matej.

Yes I know this everything, but still what firms participated in initial competition?

I tomorrow shall show the citation from book X-Fighters...
 

lark

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Messages
1,783
Reaction score
9
Penetration Fighter Entries:

Curtiss-Wright , Consolidated-Vultee , Northrop , Goodyear ,
John Abbeman an independent engineer ,
a small engineering group called Management and Research
and of course Lockheed and Mc Donnell.

Only Lockheed and Mc Donnell held enough promise...
They became XF-90 and XF-88.

No designation numbers found but for Lockheed and McDonell.
-Lockheed model 90( first use) "90" model number was also used
for several bomber studies
-McDonnell model 36 ( C-variant)

Sources : Air Force Legends No:205- McDonnell XF-88 Voodoo
Steve Pace.
Lockheed Aircraft since 1913 -René Francillon , Putnam
 

Skybolt

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2006
Messages
2,297
Reaction score
39
Northop proposal probably was based on N-24 (later XF-89). No sign of a penetration fighter in the Northrop project list around 1946 (or later, for that matter). Problem is that it seems that not all early Northop designs were officially recorded with an N- project numeber. For example: Northrop submitted four designs to the September 1945 USAAF competion for an all-weather interceptor/fighter. Only N-24, the winning one, is recorded.
And, for Vought fanatics, I'd like to point to a V-356 of 1946, (long-range fighter for the USAF) and a V-367 (1949, so it is a strategic fighter, like the second Voodoo) for a penetration fighter.

Surces Docavia Northop and Docavia Vought project list (published here too).
 

devi

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Jul 17, 2006
Messages
118
Reaction score
1
friend Skybolt.

you speak, that V-356 (long-range fighter for the USAF), but in Docavia Vought project list is written so: V-356--long-range fighter for the USN.

What a mistake?
 

devi

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Jul 17, 2006
Messages
118
Reaction score
1
Hi lark.

If it is possible, please from book "Lockheed Aircraft since 1913" show us: "Appendices: A: Lockheed aircraft model designations and projects".
 

Skybolt

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2006
Messages
2,297
Reaction score
39
You're right Devi. My mistake.
 

hesham

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
24,665
Reaction score
1,387
Did Republic F-96 involve or not?.
 

Skybolt

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2006
Messages
2,297
Reaction score
39
As far as I know, no. Totally differennt target mission. The F-96 was developed by Republic to counter the success of the Sabre an so was intended as a day-fighter. Later it developed as a fighter-bomber (Thinderstreak) .Besides, F-96 was a very short-lived designation. In a couple of months, it reverted to F-84F. Republic used the two prototypes to experiment on side-intake for the engine, albeit not very succesfully. Later, with intakes bettered, the second prototype was used as the test bed for the Thunderflash.
 

XP67_Moonbat

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Jan 16, 2008
Messages
2,154
Reaction score
15
Hey folks,

Alright, recently I was going thru my copy of Airpower from May 2005. One of the articles was on the XF-90, XF-91, and XF-92. One of the captions detailing an XF-90 states "neither prototype survived to be properly displayed".

However X-PLANES AND PROTOTYPES by Jim Winchester states that the wreck of XF-90, No. 46-688, was found on the Nevada Test Site and was being restored by the AF Museum. I tried Google but no avail.

Would anyone have a link to this or some insight. My curiousity has the best of me on this. Talk about things that make you go "Hmm", right?
 

RobertWL

CLEARANCE: Restricted
Joined
Jan 28, 2007
Messages
41
Reaction score
4
I did a bit of research, and was actually surprised to find pictures of the airframe in storage at the Air Force Museum restoration center, http://www.warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=146600&sid=27629c5bc008d781e16b643c35cbaf91 and a bit further down is the picture, http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f14/TAdan/XF90-1.jpg And from what I've read they intend on displaying it 'As is' with little restoration work.. Which actually makes sense given some of the airframe was mangled pretty well in tests.

Anyway, I hope this helps!
 

nugo

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Feb 2, 2006
Messages
337
Reaction score
2
Hi All!

Book: The Century Series Fighters.(RAND Memorandum)
page 67

V. The McDonnell F-101 Voodoo Series
A. The XF-88
"An adequate treatment of the F-101 development requires going back to the F-88, aclose predecessor developed by McDonnell soon after the close of World War II. When the war ended, the Engineering Division at Wright Field reverted to a prewar method of getting new fighter designs--the industry-wide, preliminary design competition. In August 1945, the Division submitted to industry preliminary penetration fighter characteriistics for the newgeneration of jet-propelled
aircraft. Thirteen companies responded with a total of 20 design proposals. The Engineering Division evaluated the McDonnell Model 36 as the best of the group. It was particularly impressed with the swept-back wing, V-tail, high critical Mach number, and the growth potential of the design."

13 companies and 20 design proposals:

1) Curtiss-Wright Model P-...
2) Consolidated-Vultee Model ...
3) Goodyear Model GA-...
4) Lockheed L-153...
5) McDonnell M-36A,-36B,-36C
6) Northrop XP-79Z
7) John Abbeman Model ...
8) Management and Research Model ...
9) ? Model ...
10) ? Model ...
11) ? Model ...
12) ? Model ...
13) ? Model ...

What can we say about this?
 

Skybolt

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2006
Messages
2,297
Reaction score
39
"US Secret Projects - Fighters and Inerceptors" by Tony Buttler has more info on the penetration, then strategic, fighter competition(s).
 

mz

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
May 28, 2007
Messages
683
Reaction score
1
Stumbled upon some pics of the second XF-90 prototype. Back then it ended up to nuclear blast testing and was only retrieved and cleaned up in 2003. The company doing the cleaning took some great photos from the process, you are treated to a sort of a real life cutaway (it begins around halfway down the page):

http://www.fluid-tech-inc.com/media/photo-gallery.html
 

Attachments

Stargazer2006

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,242
Reaction score
111
It seems like it was public knowledge for quite a while that the #2 aircraft was in Nevada and too radioactive to be retrieved, because I remember my dad telling me that story a long time ago.

Provided that beast is no longer hazardous to one's health, it would be great to see it restored to display condition!
 

Stargazer2006

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,242
Reaction score
111
A couple of weeks ago I stumbled across these in the great online LIFE Magazine archive. Enjoy!
 

Attachments

verner

CLEARANCE: Restricted
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
42
Reaction score
1
They are indeed great pics. Thanks a lot.
 

Steve Pace

Aviation History Writer
Joined
Jan 6, 2013
Messages
2,269
Reaction score
12
I believe they were shot in the small hanger at North Base, Edwards AFB - the same hanger used by the XP-59As and YP-59As as well as many others.
 

Rudolph

CLEARANCE: Restricted
Joined
Nov 15, 2009
Messages
7
Reaction score
0
thank you for the pictures, i have always liked the f-90...
 

JazzTime

CLEARANCE: Restricted
Joined
Dec 30, 2009
Messages
14
Reaction score
0
Dear mister Star... I am sorry, I'm Russian designer. Your creativity delivers me a sheer pleasure. It is a condition of your soul?
Excuse me for my bad English...
 

Stargazer2006

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,242
Reaction score
111
JazzTime said:
Dear mister Star... I am sorry, I'm Russian designer. Your creativity delivers me a sheer pleasure. It is a condition of your soul?
Excuse me for my bad English...
Thanks! But are you addressing "Stargazer2006" (that is, me) or the "Super Star" (the Lockheed name for the F-90)? ;) ;D

Anyway, these pictures are not any display of creativity... they are absolutely REAL!
But maybe you're being mistaken because I ALSO do a lot of imaginary models on another forum?
 

JazzTime

CLEARANCE: Restricted
Joined
Dec 30, 2009
Messages
14
Reaction score
0
I cannot get on your site... All check me... Help... Or my bad Engl...?

P.S. About, no! I mean your gallery. As the professional to the professional, that you do it's amazing...
Excuse, I'm far from thought to advertise your creativity... Simply, I recently at this forum... May be, I don't know any rules... The moderator will correct me... I'm assured of it...
 

Justo Miranda

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Dec 2, 2007
Messages
3,553
Reaction score
288
Some additional info -Post-3
From
-Airpower-March 1981
-Flight Journal -August 2001
-Flug Revue -Juli 1999
-Le Fanatique de l'Aviation unknown issue
-Unknown source
 

Attachments

Justo Miranda

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Dec 2, 2007
Messages
3,553
Reaction score
288
Some additional info -Post-4
From
-Airpower-March 1981
-Flight Journal -August 2001
-Flug Revue -Juli 1999
-Le Fanatique de l'Aviation unknown issue
-Unknown source
 

Attachments

Stargazer2006

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,242
Reaction score
111
All fascinating stuff about a fascinating aircraft... Thank you so much Justo! I will now rename the topic appropriately.
 

aero-engineer

CLEARANCE: Restricted
Joined
Jul 10, 2007
Messages
49
Reaction score
0
Stargazer2006 said:
It seems like it was public knowledge for quite a while that the #2 aircraft was in Nevada and too radioactive to be retrieved, because I remember my dad telling me that story a long time ago.
That info was in either Ben Rich's or Kelly Johnson's memoirs.

I too was surprised to see that they were retrieving it. Hope to see it someday.

aero-engineer
 

archipeppe

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Oct 18, 2007
Messages
1,568
Reaction score
87
Excellent stuff, as usual, folks!!!

I always loved the F-90 the real "father" of the F-104.
 

JazzTime

CLEARANCE: Restricted
Joined
Dec 30, 2009
Messages
14
Reaction score
0
Dear archipeppe, as it seems to me, F-104 represented other concept of a fighter. The maximum speed, instead of manoeuvrability, was the preferable characteristic.
And all design decisions have been subordinated to it.

Thanks.
 

archipeppe

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Oct 18, 2007
Messages
1,568
Reaction score
87
JazzTime said:
Dear archipeppe, as it seems to me, F-104 represented other concept of a fighter. The maximum speed, instead of manoeuvrability, was the preferable characteristic.
And all design decisions have been subordinated to it.

Thanks.
Of course but, anyway, there is a "family feeling" among the two fighters and not only because they came frome the same source (Johnson). Especially if you look at the fuselage the relationship is clear.
 

JazzTime

CLEARANCE: Restricted
Joined
Dec 30, 2009
Messages
14
Reaction score
0
Certainly, Kelly was the magnificent designer. His SR-71 represents a fantastic design till now.
 

Steve Pace

Aviation History Writer
Joined
Jan 6, 2013
Messages
2,269
Reaction score
12
In designing the F-104, I believe, Johnson tried to undo his XF-90 mistake. The latter was too heavy, too underpowered.
 

JazzTime

CLEARANCE: Restricted
Joined
Dec 30, 2009
Messages
14
Reaction score
0
The Lockheed XF-90 was built in response to a United States Air Force requirement for a long-range penetration fighter and bomber escort. Therefore it was, really, "heavy"...
 
Top