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Author Topic: Unbuilt & Prototype Mirages 1955-1980  (Read 128639 times)

Offline Archibald

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Re: Unbuilt & Prototype Mirages 1955-1980
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2006, 08:26:20 am »
I'll not enter in the field of the Mirage III sub-variants (too many!) just mentioned some interesting one (sometimes well known!)
- Mirage IIIK was a Spey powered variant for GB.
- Mirage IIIT was a flying testbed for the TF-104/106 turbofans (first flight 4/06/1964 with Jean Coureau. The plane, as the F-111 and Tomcat later, was plagued by engines stalls)
- Mirage IIIM was the Aeronavale variant (not very realistic, considering that the landing speed of a Mirage III is around 200kt...)
- Mirage IIIW was to be a licence build Boeing variant to compete with the F-5A/E on export markets.
- Mirage IIIO was the Australian variant, the prototype had the
Avon-300 engine whereas the production aircrafts stayed with the Atar 9.
- Milan was the first atempt to fit canards on a Mirage III. They were fitted on the nose (not on the air intakes a la Kfir) and could retract on the fuselage.
- Mirage V( 1967) 50 (1979)  and NG (1982) were improved variants
(with less and less success along the years...)

The Mirage IIIF, IIIG and IIIV designations applied in fact to nearly 100% new aircrafts. The IIIV designation stayed whereas the two others were quickly dropped in favor of the single letter F and G.

Footnote : the Mirage III-01 Balzac (1956-1965)

The name Balzac was applied to the early Mirage III-01 of november 1956. This plane had a long life as testbed for the Mirage IIIA/B/C/E and was still flying in 1961.
It was then  changed into a subsonic VTOL demonstrator  by replacing its Atar 9 by an Orpheus+ 8 RB-108 lift engine. Know as Balzac V (Vertical) it was only subsonic, with a flight time of 12 minutes.
The plane flew in 1962, crashed for the first time in February 1964 at Melun-Villaroche, killing CEV test pilot Jacques Pinier.
The plane was repared, and crashed again in September 1965 killing Major Neale.
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Offline Antonio

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Re: Unbuilt & Prototype Mirages 1955-1980
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2006, 09:31:19 am »
Quote
Mirage IIIW was to be a licence build Boeing variant to compete with the F-5A/E on export markets.

I didn't knew about this variant. Boeing first thought to enter USAF's LFW competition (won by the GD F-16) was a Mirage F-1 with US avionics/weapons and J-79 Engine. It seems that Boeing had Dassault's Fighters in good consideration.

Offline Archibald

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Re: Unbuilt & Prototype Mirages 1955-1980
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2006, 10:48:09 am »
W stands for Wichita. I don't know more about this project :(
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Offline TinWing

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Re: Unbuilt & Prototype Mirages 1955-1980
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2006, 11:12:37 am »
Quote
Mirage IIIW was to be a licence build Boeing variant to compete with the F-5A/E on export markets.

I didn't knew about this variant. Boeing first thought to enter USAF's LFW competition (won by the GD F-16) was a Mirage F-1 with US avionics/weapons and J-79 Engine. It seems that Boeing had Dassault's Fighters in good consideration.

The Mirage F-1 was a good fighter for its time - although its time ran out when the YF-16 appeared.

A J-79 engined Mirage F-1 would have been aerodynamically superior to the IAI Kfir, not to mention the F-104S - which was still in production in Italy at the time!

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Unbuilt & Prototype Mirages 1955-1980
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2006, 01:17:23 pm »
W stands for Wichita. I don't know more about this project :(


According to Jack Gee's book on the Mirage, this was a variant of the Mirage IIIC intended as a competitor for the F-5A/B in the early 1960s.  It would indeed have been built by Boeing-Wichita.  It definitely could've lead somewhat earlier to a J9-powered version of the Mirage.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2006, 11:27:22 pm by elmayerle »

Offline Archibald

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Re: Unbuilt & Prototype Mirages 1955-1980
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2006, 01:27:32 pm »
 ;D Not totally outdated - see what the Iraqis did with their EQ in the 80's- :)
The Improved F1E would have had FBW and M53 engine -better armed to fight the YF-16 !-
Don't forget that the YF-16 - in 1975- was only a raw prototype. Nevertheless, the announcement of a buying of 650 of them in January 1975 by the USAF  pushed the decision of the Belgium governement.
But I agree, a better answer to the F-16 was the Mirage-2000...
I really don't want to start a "deal-of-the-century" polemic here!

PS concerning the Kfir and the F-104S they dated back from the 50's (Mirage III and... F-104).  That's why the F1 would have been superior...

More Mirage stuff to follow...

PS you mean a kind of american kfir ? Well the J-79 and Avon were the equivalent of the Atar in time, power, technology, spreading...(albeit a bit more powerful).
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Offline Jemiba

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Re: Unbuilt & Prototype Mirages 1955-1980
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2006, 10:10:40 am »
A version still not mentioned here, I think:
Mirage IIIT2, powered by a TF-106, as the IIIV's cruise engine, and intended as a
long range reconnaissnace and strike a/c, but at first just as an developing a/c for
the IIIV.
source:
Flying Review vol.19, 1963. The model was shown on the 25th
Salo International de l'Aéronautique et de #"Espace.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 03:50:06 am by Jemiba »
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Offline Archibald

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Re: Unbuilt & Prototype Mirages 1955-1980
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2006, 02:23:10 am »
Hey, this look like an operational variant of the Mirage IIIT! Never heard about this one, Jemiba...
To my mind, this project had two origins :
- Or  it was an alternative to the IIIV just in the case of a failure of the VTOL aircraft...
- Or it was a Mirage III variant developed BEFORE the IIIV (1960-1963 ?) abandoned, and then resurected to be use as a testbed...
It is aparently based on a Mirage IIIB, but the canopy look more a Mirage F2/ G... very, very interesting project! Where do you find it ?
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Offline Archibald

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Re: Unbuilt & Prototype Mirages 1955-1980
« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2006, 07:24:16 am »
Mirage F and G

I decided to join the two families because all the aircrafts are (more or less) linked together, from the F2 to the ACF.

At the beginning of the 60's, the AdA as many airforces was obsessed by the vulnearbility of its runaways. That's why many programs were setup to shorten or even supress the take off (and landing) run. Of course there was also the problem of the Mirage III succession...
The first and obvious move was in favor of VTOL Mirages. That was before discovering the difficulties of this kind of aircrafts. As an insurance, a STOL swept wing aircraft (full of flaps!)  was also required.
At the time, the need was for a long-range, two-seat strike aircraft to complement the Mirage IIIE (as the Argies discovered 25 years later, range was too short, and a two-man crew would have been better...)
The Mirage IIIF2 was born. At the beginning of the 60's, relations between Israel and France reached a peak, and the latter was seeking a replacement for its Vautour (timescale was around 1970).

The Vautour constructor, now Sud-aviation (from 1st March 1957 and the merge of SNCASO and SNCASE) proposed a vastly  upgraded Vautour. Major Yohash Tsiddon was responsible of the project for the IAF, so the plane was name Tsiklon. (picture from "les avions de combat francais" by Jean Cuny)

More to follow...
 
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Offline Archibald

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Re: Unbuilt & Prototype Mirages 1955-1980
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2006, 01:14:26 am »
This mean June 1963... well, we have a kind of ancestor of the Mirage F2, this time with a delta wing (instead of the swept wing). The canopy looks strikingly similar, the engine is a TF-106...

This plane really look like the missing link between the ultimate Mirage III developments (the V and 50 are straight developments, sub variants of the IIIE) and the first "differents" Mirages (biggers, with differents wings...)

Maybe it was a bigger development of the IIIE, with a TF-106 to boost range. Sadly, with its delta wing, it had bad STOL abilities...we can imagine that Dassault stayed with the fuselage of this aircraft, but replaced the delta wing by a hypersustented, high mounted swept wing to allow STOL. Hence the Mirage F2....

For info, the Mirage IIIT was a single seat testbed based on a Mirage III. It flew on 4th June 1964 with Jean Coureau at the controls (already mentioned it!)
Well, dear Jemiba if you have others projects like that in your hard disk, don't hesitate to post :)

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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Unbuilt & Prototype Mirages 1955-1980
« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2006, 12:25:59 am »
Interesting account of Mirage design evolution in Salvador Mafe Huertas Dassault-Breguet Mirage III/5 Osprey Air Combat 1990

  • MD.550 - Mach 1.15 in shallow dive. Drag way too high for the limited thrust.
  • Fairey Aviation provided FD2 data to Dassault, as a result MD.550 fin and dorsal spine redesigned, length and wingspan reduced slightly. Renamed Mirage I. Speed increased to Mach 1.3 in level flight with rocket boost
  • Mirage II was a larger development with a larger wing based on Fairey data and two Turbomeca Gabizo turbojets. Not built.
  • Mirage III (01) had almost identical wing to the Mirage II project, but new "area-ruled" fuselage based on US research. SNECMA Atar 101G.2 turbojet. Mach 1.52 in level flight.
  • Refitted with conical "shock cones" similar to the F-104, achieves Mach 1.6 (jet engine) and Mach 1.9 (with rocket boost).
  • Mirage IIIA - increased thrust Atar 9B, wing redesigned to reduce drag and increase lift. Conical leading edge camber adopted [as recommended by NASA Ames research and implemented on F-106 and B-58 - my addition]. Mach 2 reached.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2006, 12:27:31 am by overscan »
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Offline Archibald

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Re: Unbuilt & Prototype Mirages 1955-1980
« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2006, 03:02:35 am »
I have to found the source (sorry) but the Mirage-II was partially built. And the wings of this unfisnished aircraft were used for a "speed built" of the Mirage III-01. (why speed built ? because Dassault was late against the Durandal, but also because the program had changed once again).
Thanks for the more detailed story Overscan.

Footnote : Mirage IV and Mirage-2000 tails were changed around their first flight just because old Marcel Dassault found they were ugly... that's not a joke! (Fana de l'aviation August 1998 about first flight of the 2000)
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Unbuilt & Prototype Mirages 1955-1980
« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2006, 03:10:36 am »
So we can see that both the Fairey FD2 and Convair F-106 connections have some basis in fact. Fairey's contribution however was in the initial stages, and the real advances that made the Mirage III a Mach 2 success were:

Uprated engine (French, based on original German design)
Area-ruled fuselage (US, e.g. F-102B/F-106)
Conical camber wing (US, e.g. F102B/F-106)
Intake shock cones (US, e.g. F-104)
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Offline Archibald

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Re: Unbuilt & Prototype Mirages 1955-1980
« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2006, 03:46:16 am »
Uprated engine (French, based on original German design)

BMW-003 (900 kgp of thrust).
Atar (first test benched, 26 th march  1948) : 1700 kgp
First production engine : 2200 kgp
Atar 101 family power grew from 2200 kgp to 4400 kgp (Atar 101G)
Then the Atar-9 variants reached 6000 kgp (Mirage IIIC) 6700 kgp for the 9K-31 of the Mirage IV and 7200 kgp for the 9K50.
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Unbuilt & Prototype Mirages 1955-1980
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2006, 05:19:09 am »
Hermann Östrich (ex BMW) actually worked on ATAR for SNECMA.

ATAR 101 was a straightforward derivative of the BMW 003 (7 stage compressor, 1 stage turbine), while ATAR 8/9 had a revised configuration (9 stage compressor, 2 stage turbine) but remained conceptually similar (single spool design, when most others were moving towards twin spools), and was simple, robust, and cheap, with little use of exotic alloys etc.
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