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Author Topic: NATO Basic Military Requirements (NBMR)  (Read 24461 times)

Offline Apophenia

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Re: NATO Basic Military Requirements (NBMR)
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2010, 10:54:42 am »
... And that makes the contenders for NMBR.4 as following;

Shorts PD.55,Agusta A.118 & A.119,BAC-224,SIAI S.201,Aerfer-2102,
AW.681,EE P.36,Fiat G-222 V/STOL,Avro-783,Bristol-208,DH-129
Dornier Do.31E and Breguet Br.941.

The tilt-wing Canadair CL-62 should be added to that list.

Offline Colonial-Marine

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Re: NATO Basic Military Requirements (NBMR)
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2011, 02:49:29 pm »
Would anybody happen to comprehensive list of NBMRs and the designs proposed in response to these? While I've seen many references of NBMR-1 and 3 and their influence on certain aircraft, I have been unable to dig up much on the actual requirements themselves. Were these "unofficial" competitions or was there an expectation to achieve some sort of NATO standardization in aircraft?
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 02:51:05 pm by Colonial-Marine »
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: NATO Basic Military Requirements (NBMR)
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2011, 05:48:30 pm »
This book - Friendly rivals: bargaining and burden-shifting in NATO By Wallace J. Thies

seems to have an excellent summary of the process - view on

Google Books
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Offline Nico

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Re: NATO Basic Military Requirements (NBMR)
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2011, 04:50:10 am »
Regarding this document shown in J.C.Fayer "Vols d'essay", the Folland Gnat, the Avro 727
and the Dassault Mystere XXVI (led to the Etendard VI) were considered.
I can add the ill-known SIPA S.800
My complete lits, the, is:
Avro Type 727
Breguet Br.1001 Taon
Dassault Etendard XXVI
FIAT G.91
Folland Fo.141 Gnat
SIPA S.800
In the same timeframe, but not directly answering the NBMR-1 there were the:
Aerfer Sagittario II
Bpulton Paul P.111A
Nord-SFECMAS N.1402 Gerfaut
Nord-SFECMAS N.1502 Griffon
Sud-Est SE.212 Durandal
Sud-Est SE.5000 Baroudeur
Sud-Est SO.9000 Trident and probably some others...

Nico S

Offline Nico

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Re: NATO Basic Military Requirements (NBMR)
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2011, 04:57:19 am »
Sorry, I forget the Messerschmitt entry ( I don't have any information about it).
Could be of interest remember that the others NATO Basic Military Requirements are:
NBMR-2: Maritime Patrol Aircraft, won by Breguet Br.1150 Atlantic
NBMR-3: V/STOL combat aircraft, split in two requirements:
AC.169a for a Mach 2 fighter
AC.169b for a subsonic fighter-bomber (both V/STOL)
NBMR-4: Tactical Transport (V/STOL)
NBMR-22: I don't have exact datas but I think was an evolution of NBMR-4
Nico S


Offline Pioneer

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Re: NATO Basic Military Requirements (NBMR)
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2011, 03:42:44 pm »
Hi,
during 1960s the NATO wanted a new long range maritime patrol aircraft,
manufacturers from Belgium,France,Canada,Germany,Italy,the Netherlands,
UK and USA submitted proposals.
for example Avro-745 was too big to the task,Nord N----? was too small
to the task,and the competition was won by Breguet Br.1150 Atlantique.


         can anyone know the other proposals ?.

So gents, out of curiosity, did we ever find what this NBMR designation was i.e NBMR-?

Regards
Pioneer
And remember…remember the glory is not the exhortation of war, but the exhortation of man.
Mans nobility, made transcendent in the fiery crucible of war.
Faithfulness and fortitude.
Gentleness and compassion.
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Offline Skyblazer

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Re: NATO Basic Military Requirements (NBMR)
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2011, 05:12:04 pm »
So gents, out of curiosity, did we ever find what this NBMR designation was i.e NBMR-?

Regards
Pioneer

It stood for NATO Basic Military Requirement.

Three examples:

NBMR.3 was for a Supersonic VSTOL strike fighter (1961)
Designs submitted to NBMR.3 were as follows:
  • Hawker P.1150/3
  • Hawker P.1154
  • Mirage IIIV
  • Fokker-Republic D.24 Alliance
  • BAC Weybridge 585 (design)
  • BAC Warton (English Electric) P.39 (design)

NBMR.4 was for a Tactical V/STOL fighter
Designs submitted were as follows:
  • B.A.C. 224 (design)
  • D.H. 129 (design)
  • English Electric P.36 (design)
  • English Electric P.41 (design)
  • English Electric P.44 (design)
  • L.T.V. (design)
  • Breguet (design)
  • De Havilland of Canada (design)

NBMR.22 was for a V/STOL transport
Designs submitted were as follows:
  • B.A.C. P.43 (design)
  • Fiat (design)
  • Dornier (design)
« Last Edit: February 26, 2011, 05:24:24 pm by Stargazer2006 »

Offline hesham

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Re: NATO Basic Military Requirements (NBMR)
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2011, 04:46:06 am »
Hi,

the NBMR.3 contenders were;

   Hawker P.1150/3
   Hawker P.1154
   BAC/Vickers 583
   BAC/Vickers 584
   BAC/Vickers 585
   Armstrong-Whitworth AW.406
   Shorts PD.45
   Shorts PD.49
   Shorts PD.56
   BAC/English-Electric P.39
   Mirage IIIV
   Fokker-Republic D.24 Alliance
   Fiat G95/4
   Breguet Br.122
   Nord N.4400
   EWR VJ.101
   Focke-Wulf FW.1262
   Lockheed CL-704
   
   

Offline Apophenia

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Re: NATO Basic Military Requirements (NBMR)
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2011, 01:44:44 pm »
NBMR.4 was for a Tactical V/STOL fighter
Designs submitted were as follows:
  • B.A.C. 224 (design)
  • D.H. 129 (design)
  • English Electric P.36 (design)
  • English Electric P.41 (design)
  • English Electric P.44 (design)
  • L.T.V. (design)
  • Breguet (design)
  • De Havilland of Canada (design)


NBMR.4 was, of course, for a V/STOL tactical transport aircraft.

Stéphane: do you have a ref for a DHC entry? I am aware that Canadair put a lot of work into their CL-62 concept for NBMR.4. What was DHC working on?

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: NATO Basic Military Requirements (NBMR)
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2011, 03:21:44 pm »
NBMR.4 was, of course, for a V/STOL tactical transport aircraft.

 :o :o :o I KNOW!!! I realize I typed "fighter" instead of "freighter"... How could I be so absent-minded?? ???

Stéphane: do you have a ref for a DHC entry? I am aware that Canadair put a lot of work into their CL-62 concept for NBMR.4. What was DHC working on?

Actually I do. This is from an old listing published in a British aviation magazine (I believe it was Air Pictorial). I'm attaching a copy for reference.

Offline Apophenia

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Re: NATO Basic Military Requirements (NBMR)
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2011, 10:28:52 pm »
Thanks Stéphane! Very intriguing, now we just need to figure out what DHC was proposing  ;)

Offline Pioneer

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Re: NATO Basic Military Requirements (NBMR)
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2011, 11:38:41 pm »
So gents, out of curiosity, did we ever find what this NBMR designation was i.e NBMR-?

Regards
Pioneer


Quote
It stood for NATO Basic Military Requirement.

No sorry Stéphane, what I meant was what was the NBMR designation for what would become the Atlantic ASW/MP aircraft.........NBMR??

Regards
Pioneer

And remember…remember the glory is not the exhortation of war, but the exhortation of man.
Mans nobility, made transcendent in the fiery crucible of war.
Faithfulness and fortitude.
Gentleness and compassion.
I am honored to be your brother.”

— Lt Col Ralph Honner DSO M

Offline Nico

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Re: NATO Basic Military Requirements (NBMR)
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2011, 12:53:06 am »
So gents, out of curiosity, did we ever find what this NBMR designation was i.e NBMR-?

Regards
Pioneer


Quote
It stood for NATO Basic Military Requirement.

As you can see in my post on January 6, the Basic Military Requirement for Atlantic (see Pioneer's request) was NBMR-2.
In fact, other than the quoted NBMR-1 for the light fighter, NBMR-2 for the maritime patroller, NBMR-3/169a for the V/STOL supersonic fighter, NBMR-3/169b for a subsonic V/STOL fighter-bomber, NBMR-4 for a V/STOL tactical transport and NBMR-22 for a tactical transport, I can suppose that there were others (perhaps between -5 and -21) but I lack any info about.
Moreover there were also other important requirements involving the Eiropean NATO members  but I don't know the official designations.
The first I can remember was the 1949 evaluation following the requirement for an all-weather interceptor fighter. The winner was the deHavilland DH.112 Venom NF Mk.51, with a target of building 1,000-1,100 aircraft with licence to various European industries. Washington suspended the program in July 1952. On January 22, 1953, for the same requirement USAF proposed a simplified version of the F-86D (originally intended as a two-seater) and the result was the F-86K Sabre Jet. Then F-86K, built under licence by FIAT for NATO countries, could be considered the winner of the first NATO contest (but I don't know the official designation of the requirement). One of possible contestant was the Gloster Javelin.
Not really a NATO contest was the 1958 German program for a military transport aircraft replacing the Nord N-2501 Noratlas. The result was an international requirement with several candidates, won by Arbeitsgemeinschaft Transporter Allianz C-160 Transall, but most NATO countries preferred the Lockheed C-130 Hercules and only France, Germany and Turkey bought the C-160 (also South Africa, onviously not a NATO member). Perhaps one of the losers was Armstrong-Siddeley AW-681.
Another important NATO requirement was the May 1956 one for the F-86K replacement, won, as we know, by Lockheed F-104G Starfighter that was built  by a "production ring" including Messerschmitt, Dornier, Heinkel, Siebel, Fokker, Aviolanda, HFB, SABCA, Avions Fairey, FIAT Aviazione and Aermacchi for airframes and final assembly.

Nico




No sorry Stéphane, what I meant was what was the NBMR designation for what would become the Atlantic ASW/MP aircraft.........NBMR??

Regards
Pioneer



Offline boxkite

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Re: NATO Basic Military Requirements (NBMR)
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2011, 05:07:36 am »
Actually I do. This is from an old listing published in a British aviation magazine (I believe it was Air Pictorial). I'm attaching a copy for reference.

Stéphane, actually it was published in Aeromilitaria (The AIR BRITAIN Military Aviation Historical Quarterly) No. 1/1997.

Offline JFC Fuller

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Re: NATO Basic Military Requirements (NBMR)
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2011, 07:00:32 am »
1953 mass NATO (US funded) aircraft purchase: http://www.nato.int/cps/en/SID-285B69DB-59222616/natolive/opinions_17376.htm

Link also mentions the F-86D to be built in Italy which as Nico states took the place of the DeHavilland Venom. Scanning the google books search results for "Supermarine Swift NATO 1952" it seems like the Swift was originally going to take the role of the Hunter as a pan-European (except for France) and low countries produced aircraft until about 1953 when the swap was made.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2011, 07:19:45 am by sealordlawrence »