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Designation Systems / Re: Handley Page aircraft
« Last post by Apophenia on Today at 03:31:10 pm »
Chris: No such luck, no such access  :P

Stéphane: Corrections made. Thanks for sharing your enhanced HP list  I like you theory that Type X may have been applied to the whole slotted wing research programme.

With the 1921-22 types S and T being 'recycled' within the first system, as you show, the second Letter Type designation system becomes even more fragmented and puzzling.
Modelling Forum / Re: HobbyBoss YF-23A -> F-23A modeling project
« Last post by flateric on Today at 11:22:28 am »
You have to see his other model then...

Modelling Forum / Re: HobbyBoss YF-23A -> F-23A modeling project
« Last post by sferrin on Today at 11:17:48 am »
The way he was able to capture the metallic look of one of the early F-22s is amazing.
Boy, the sheer skill and patience to do that level of detail requires a round of applause.  Beautifully done.
Propulsion / Breda aero engines
« Last post by Jjr on Today at 10:22:36 am »
During my Breda inquiry I found that on the "Salone di Taliedo" of 1919 at the Breda stand there was an aer engine of 320 hp, further no details.
During the same period Breda build a few 80hp engines, which were used in some Breda-Pensuti's 2 seaters.
That small engine was mentioned in some articles as inline and V-8 engines, my opinion that both are wrong.
Looking at pictures of the two-seater Breda-Pensuti its to see that it was jot an inline and also not a V-8 but a V-4. I think that a V-8 with 80 hp was to heavy.
Until now I did not found more of both engine, but I think that the V-8 they mentioned was the 320 hp engine.
Who can help me with details, dimensions, pictures, drawings etc. etc. of both engines each small detail is welcome.
Quality is not important but what is on it.


Designation Systems / Re: Handley Page aircraft
« Last post by Skyblazer on Today at 07:19:01 am »
Funny that Paul shared a page from the Putnam book... I have just finished scanning and turning to PDF the entire list of types from that book, as it hadn't been posted in this thread previously. Here it is (see attachment).

Finding dates for HP designs was crazy-making  :o I too have seen Bluebird listed as a 1909 type. The Type A first flew on 26 May 1910, so I went with that. But now I'm doubting my choice on the Type B (with its convoluted history). Finished in 1909 but abandoned by HP before flying, the 'B was flown in 1910 as the Plane Limited Biplane. But, this is an HP list, so 1909 seems to be the important date.

It's tricky sometimes to put a precise date on a design. Sometimes the same lists make a mish-mash of dates that makes little sense: unbuilt types are only dated according to when they were drafted, but built types are usually given according to their first flight. It makes for a pretty incoherent chronology. A better list should feature the draft date for all types, and add first flight (if there was one) in a separate column (and delivery in another one still). I'm working on something of that sort for H.P. which should clarify a couple of questions.

I've seen both "Antiseptic" and "Yellow Peril" applied to the Type D/H.P.4 and the Type E/H.P.5.

According to the Putnam book, Type D was Antiseptic while Type E was Yellow Peril. But I guess it's not impossible that the two were used for both at the time.

Type S: Doh! I had the HPS as Type S in the 'H.P.' listings but forgot to add it to the second Letter Types  :-[

Type T: Still confused about this one. Are you saying that (in the second series), the Type T was the H.P.19 Hanley while the Type Ta was its development, the H.P.25 Hendon? That would certainly make sense.

Thanks for confirm the Type X designation.

Actually even the Putnam book is confused over that particular letter... Type X doesn't get an entry of its own in the book, but rather is mentioned (and illustrated) as part of both the "Handley Page Slotted Wings" chapter and the "C/7 Handcross and D/4 Transport" chapter. The letter covered two very different projects: the Type X Bomber, and the Type X Transport (Spec. 17/21). However, none of these two designs is mentioned in the Appendix list (see PDF), and instead, only the H.P.20 is given as the X/4B (or X.4b) Slotted Monoplane with Liberty 12 engine (which we know was a D.H.9A [F1632] fitted with monoplane slotted wings). Either the "Type X" designation was given to the entire slotted wing research (including D.H.9 and 9A test-beds, bomber and transport projects), OR the terms "Type X Bomber" and "Type X Transport" simply mean "Bomber project using the Type X wing" and "Transport project using the Type X wing". I'm still not sure about which is more likely.

A closer look at the chronology (as explained earlier) makes it clear that Types S (HPS-1 Scout), T (Hanley) and Ta (Hendon) were designated long before the new lettering system appeared. Types S and T were reallocated circa 1921 (as the original Types S and T had not been built), and as the Hendon was a development of the Hanley, it followed suit in 1923. New letter designations (Types C, D and E) were then given circa 1923-24 for new types, but strangely enough, although the new HP- system appeared in 1924 to cover (nearly) all previous designs retroactively, the company continued to allocate letter designations until 1929. Of these, only Types F, H and M are known, but very clearly, the 1921-22 types S and T could NOT be part of that second system.

There probably weren't any letter designations after Type M. It would be logical from looking at design chronology that H.P.22 and 23 could have been Types A and B of the new system, H.P.33 could have been Type G, and H.P.35, 38 and 39 could have been Types J, K and L. But it's PURELY HYPOTHETICAL on my part.
Designation Systems / Re: Handley Page aircraft
« Last post by hesham on Today at 06:39:27 am »
As I think,the missing numbers were unknown Projects,lost there documents.
William Wingate, Fireplay, 1977

United States

USS Galveston (CV-??)
Aircraft Carrier, class not specified.
Length: 1020ft (310.9m)
Displacement: 80,800 tons
Crew: 4493
Air group includes A7E Corsairs and F4N Phantom IIs
Note: Explicitly identified in the text as a conventionally powered warship.

USS Stormy Beach (CGN-?)
Long Beach Class Cruiser?
Details as per the real ships.
Note: Name is dubious. Details of armament however are an exact match for the USS Long Beach (CGN-9).

USS Mary Jane
Oceanographic Survey Ship, class not specified
Length: 260ft (79.25m)
Displacement: 5000 tons
Diesel-electric engines
Speed: 12 knots (Cruising)
Crew: 43 + 17 scientists
Electronics fitted includes side-scan sonar.
Note: Name is dubious, 'Mary Jane' is a slang term for marijuana.

Four Destroyers of unspecified class.


Golf (Pr.629) Class Submarine
Launched: 1963
Details as per the real ships.

Kresta I (Pr.1134) Class Cruiser (Modified)
Details as per the real ships save she carries 2 x KA-25 'Hormone Helicopters.

Kresta I (Pr.1134) Class Cruiser
Real ship, details as in service

Dmitri Lazarev
Sverdlov (Pr.68bis) Class Cruiser
Details as per the real ships

Cruiser, class not specified
No other details provided

Cruiser, class not specified
No other details provided

Oceanographic Survey Ship, class not specified
17,000 tons
Crew: 137 + 71 Scientists
No other details provided.

Various destroyers and frigates.

Plot summary: The Russians have lost a submarine in the Pacific, giving the US the opportunity for a major intelligence coup.

Note: This is only the second novel I've come across based on Operation Jennifer (Project Azorian) (The other is 'Neptune' (1976) by Noel B. Gerson.), this one features a fictional version of Howard Hugues & the Glomar Explorer (Called in this novel, the Pacific Klondike.) other changes from the actual events are the use of a submersible barge (Omega One) and a copy of the bathyscape Trieste (Explorer One) to salvage the sunken Russian submarine. Interestingly this is one of the few 1970s action novels I found to be available on Kindle.
Designation Systems / Re: Handley Page aircraft
« Last post by CJGibson on Today at 03:03:08 am »
Boo hoo. I was hoping for an original HP document.


Designation Systems / Re: Handley Page aircraft
« Last post by PaulMM (Overscan) on Today at 01:08:48 am »
The original source is the Putnam on Handley-Page I think. There's a little more in the text:
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