Secret Projects Forum

Secret Projects => Early Aircraft Projects => Topic started by: Wurger on November 15, 2008, 09:50:56 am

Title: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: Wurger on November 15, 2008, 09:50:56 am
hello guys,

the Messerschmitt Me209 V4, taken from the latest ( at least in Portugal ) "Le Fana de L`aviation", an excellent article by Wolfgang Muhlbauer. Enjoy.

[Admin - please do not upload scanned images from books or mags larger than 600 pixels and be very considerate when scanning images from current periodicals of the author and publisher who need to sell their articles.]

Editions Lariviere site here: http://www.editions-lariviere.fr/site/abonnement.php?prov_id=260

Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: Bodmas on February 24, 2009, 04:26:27 pm
This pic would appear to be an illustration of an Me 309 variant, not an Me 209
{The Illustrations are from Wikipedia - not the most reliable source, i know, But try the Messerschmitt section in:

Tony Wood & Bill Gunston (3rd. impression, 1979)
Hitler's Luftwaffe
Salamander Books, UK
[ISBN 0-86101-005-1] }

 They give more or less identical illustrations (Me 309 V1 & V2; Me 209 V1 to V6 & A-series). Note the loop radiator on the nose of the Me 209, similar to that of the Fw 190-D

See also:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5609.0.html
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: Wurger on February 25, 2009, 11:51:47 am
Sorry Bodmas,

but your wikipedia source missed the Me209R. The were two Me209 lay-outs, as you`l find.
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: Bodmas on February 25, 2009, 04:19:31 pm
Umm... i tried to cross-reference the Wiki refs with the quoted book - i don't trust much of the info on Wikipedia - and they correlated ok [illustration-wise].
Sure, the pic. you provided has a lot in common with the Wendel Record-Breaker Me 209 (cf. the tailplane) - and i am grateful for the info - but i am skeptical. I'm not knocking your research skills or anything; Wiki was NOT my Primary Source!
That said, I Could be Wrong
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: sagallacci on March 28, 2009, 08:52:34 pm
The exploded drawing is of a militarized  Me209V4 (has appeared in other pubs too) and the actual machine was dressed up as a operational fighter for some photo propaganda shots. Attempts to do anything useful with the design met with nothing but disappointment.
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: Bodmas on March 29, 2009, 03:38:10 pm
Thanks for the replies :-\
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: hesham on September 15, 2013, 05:19:09 am
I can't translate well,


is this Messerschmitt Me.209H a fighter ?.
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: Jemiba on September 15, 2013, 05:47:17 am
"Based on the project for a „new Me 209“ submitted to the RLM during April 1943, the type should be used as conventional fighter
and as high altitude fighter as well. The latter variant would have been fitted, besides from an enlarged wing, with either the DB 603,
the Jumo 213 or the Jumo 222 engines. As the first pattern aircraft (prototype), a Bf 109 G-3 was converted. The Me 209 HV 1
(registration SP+EG, serial number 16281) was equipped with the eigth prototype of the DB 628. First flights can be verified for the
beginning of 1943 in Augsburg. On the 8th of May 1944 the aircraft was taken over by Daimler-Benz in Echterdingen. From August 1943,
the Me 209 V 1 was equipped with the DB 628 V 20 and the enlarged fin of the Bf 109 V 50. This aircraft was mainly used for tests of the
tail assembly of the Me 209 at the end of 1943. The prototype was destroyed during an air raid on Stuttgart-Echterdingen on the 14th of
August 1944. Then the whole Me 209 program had already been stopped by GFM (Generalfeldmarschall) Milch on the 25th of May 1944
with agrrement by Hermann Göring , because of the imminent introduction of the Me 262."

Interesting article with several precise dates an incidents, that should make a verification relatively easy. Where is it from ?
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: carsinamerica on September 15, 2013, 01:00:26 pm
From Hitchcock (Messerschmitt O-Nine Gallery), p. 101:

"The RLM advised Messerschmitt to expedite development of a high altitude fighter by incorporating Me 209H systems directly into the Bf 109H program (see p. 92). Messerschmitt complied, but continued construction of the Me 209H V1, albeit on a low priority basis. Accordingly, early in 1943 a design was advanced based on the Me P.1091a resulting in the Me 209H. Although it was not fitted to the Me 209H V1, the DB 627B [I think this should be DB628 based on other references Hitchcock makes] was selected. Delays protracted its completion until June 1944, and by this time the Me 209 and the DB 627 programs had been cancelled. Therefore, the Me 209H V1 was completed with a DB 603G (similar to the DB 627 but lacking after-cooler and two-stage mechanical supercharger)."

So, there was the Me 209 V1 through V4 (the record-breaker), with the V4 being the proposed fighter.
Then followed the Me 309
Then the revised Me 209, usually called the Me 209-II.
Then the RLM wanted a high-altitude variant of the 209-II. It sounds, though, that the 209H was really a continuation of the stretched Bf 109 program (P.1091a), and only used some systems architecture from the 209A.
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: Taranov on September 15, 2013, 01:27:26 pm
V4 scale plans from AJ-Press book
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: Taranov on September 15, 2013, 01:30:12 pm
V5 scale plans, source same
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: sienar on September 15, 2013, 03:03:18 pm
From Hitchcock (Messerschmitt O-Nine Gallery), p. 101:

"The RLM advised Messerschmitt to expedite development of a high altitude fighter by incorporating Me 209H systems directly into the Bf 109H program (see p. 92). Messerschmitt complied, but continued construction of the Me 209H V1, albeit on a low priority basis. Accordingly, early in 1943 a design was advanced based on the Me P.1091a resulting in the Me 209H. Although it was not fitted to the Me 209H V1, the DB 627B [I think this should be DB628 based on other references Hitchcock makes] was selected. Delays protracted its completion until June 1944, and by this time the Me 209 and the DB 627 programs had been cancelled. Therefore, the Me 209H V1 was completed with a DB 603G (similar to the DB 627 but lacking after-cooler and two-stage mechanical supercharger)."

So, there was the Me 209 V1 through V4 (the record-breaker), with the V4 being the proposed fighter.
Then followed the Me 309
Then the revised Me 209, usually called the Me 209-II.
Then the RLM wanted a high-altitude variant of the 209-II. It sounds, though, that the 209H was really a continuation of the stretched Bf 109 program (P.1091a), and only used some systems architecture from the 209A.


The picture posted at the start of this thread is of the Me 209V14, or at least that it what it is labl[/size]e[/size]d in this document.

According to an issue of Le Fana de L'Aviation this variant was proposed to the [/size]R[/size]LM in November of 1939. If you look at the drawing you can see many differences from the earlier 209s, as well as simularites to the later 309 and 209 developments.
[/size]
Source of this pic is Me-209 by David Myhra
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: Taranov on September 15, 2013, 10:06:47 pm
Me-209H with DB 628 engine, project.
Source same - AJ-Press book
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: Taranov on September 15, 2013, 10:12:52 pm
Me-209H, source same
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: Taranov on September 15, 2013, 10:15:44 pm
Me-209V6, source same
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: Jemiba on September 16, 2013, 12:06:25 am
What I've found out, up to the Me 209 V 4 the design was directly based on the record aircraft, with
test flight proving to be disappointing, with no chance of fitting internal weapons to wing, as it was too
thin and was still needed for radiators.
From the V 5 onwards, it was actually a completely new design, submitted as contender to the Ta 152,
which should use as many Bf 109 components, as possible to ease production.
Maybe an interesting side note: According to "Die Illusion der Wunderwaffen" by Ralf Schabel, Willy
Messerschmitt himself officially favoured the Me 209 against the Me 262 still at the end of 1943, as
this type would have allowed a higher output and higher profits.
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: Grzesio on September 16, 2013, 12:43:30 am
One notice - 209 V5, both 209 H and V6 plans posted by Taranov are marked as "reconstruction, hypothetical design".
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: toura on September 16, 2013, 01:45:03 am
Hi all
From an old "fana"
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: hesham on September 16, 2013, 11:17:58 am
Thank you my dear Jemiba very much,


and now we can say,there was a fighter version of Me.209 racer
aircraft,but didn't build.
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: Jemiba on September 16, 2013, 12:26:04 pm
and now we can say,there was a fighter version of Me.209 racer
aircraft,but didn't build.

Not built in series, but at least in prototype form.  ;)
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: carsinamerica on September 16, 2013, 02:59:07 pm
What I've found out, up to the Me 209 V 4 the design was directly based on the record aircraft, with
test flight proving to be disappointing, with no chance of fitting internal weapons to wing, as it was too
thin and was still needed for radiators.
From the V 5 onwards, it was actually a completely new design, submitted as contender to the Ta 152,
which should use as many Bf 109 components, as possible to ease production.

Correct. The original Me 209 also had diabolical handling characteristics. Messerschmitt's chief test pilot called it "a diminutive monstrosity" and a "brute." They increased wingspan twice, enlarged the radiators and still it didn't help. In fact, it just degraded performance.

So, Messerschmitt switched tracks and developed the Me 309, with tricycle landing gear, bubble canopy, and lower scoop. It had reliability issues, especially with the gear, and performance was not all that was desired. The RLM decided that it wouldn't be worth interrupted Bf 109 production to bring the Me 309 into service.

THEN they went back and developed the Me 209-II (aka Me 209A), which is the revised aircraft with a plan much more aligned to the Bf 109. That wasn't a success, either. Somewhere in there came the Me 409 and Me 509, neither of which went anywhere. That was the end of the piston-engine Messerschmitt fighters.
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: sienar on September 20, 2013, 09:09:52 am

Here is a short translated summary of what Le Fana de l'Aviation says about the fighter variants of the first Me 209; 


Messerschmitt wanted to make an aircraft that was more compact then the 109 but would have had similar performance while capable of carrying out the same missions with the same payloads. Additionally this smaller aircraft would be easier to build and would use fewer resources - but this came with a disadvantage in handling, take off and landing performance.

Attempts were made at remedying this by increasing the wing area, changing the geometry of the wing (not sure if the article means planform, washout or both) and different leading edge slats installations. No success was found with these changes.

In November of 1939, Messerschmitt proposed a DB601E engined fighter based on the 209 V-4 to the RM. At this time the V-4 showed worse performance then the 109F then in development, despite all attempts by Messerschmitt at improving the V-4.

Hermann Wurster and Fritz Wendel, 209 test pilots, came to the same conclusion as the Rechlin test center with Heinrich Beauvais: the 209 is a dead end. Fitting the 1200hp DB601N brought no improvement to the 209V-4, but infrequent flight testing continued until the beginning of 1941. Eventually the V-4 was transferred to storage where it was destroyed or more likely scrapped.



Additionally David Myhra in X-planes of the Third Reich: Messerchmitt 209 (ISBN-10: 0764311077) says that there was a fighter design based off the Me 209V-4 called the 209 V-14. The drawing included in the book is the same as the one I posted in this thread but much higher quality. It appears that V-14 is written on this drawing.

I would assume that the V-4 development Le Fana refers to is this 209 V-14. I can post the high quaity drawing if its OK by the mods. I'm also working on figuring out the dimensions, which appear to be quite a bit greater then the V-4.

EDIT:

Anyway, here is a rough estimate of 209V-14 dimensions.

7.57m in length
8.9m wingspan
1.75m height

I'm thinking about putting together a nice speculative 3-view of the V-14 and the rounded wingtip version of the V-4.
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: c460 on September 20, 2013, 09:51:48 am
There was a book recently published on the Me 209 by Aviatic Verlag, written by Ferdinand Käsmann, ISBN 3942645033.
However I don't know how much new information is given inside.
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: blackkite on January 27, 2016, 06:36:10 am
There were two types of Me209 fighter.
Me209 fighter(V4) was developped based on record breaker Me209(V1 to V3). Of course development was failed. ;D
Me209Ⅱ fighter(V5 to V7) was developped based on Me109 after Me309 failure.
So Me209Ⅱ fighter had bigger area tail stabilizer, longer moment arm for tail stabilizer and larger nose radiator compared with Me309.
V5=A-1 with DB603G engine
V6=A-2 with Jumo213 engine
V7=H V-1 with DB628 engine and long span wing

http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=763

So Bf109 ⇒Me209V4⇒Me309⇒Me209Ⅱ⇒Me509?
(Me409 was a twin Me209Ⅱ.)
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: blackkite on January 27, 2016, 06:51:40 am
This Me209v4 is a modified version of the V1. The main difference is that it carries two MG17s and one MG-FF cannon.
You can see normal shape radiator under the wing instead of skin cooler(v1 to v3), two guns at the nose and 20mm cannon at the spinner in three side view drawing.
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: Vladimir on January 27, 2016, 09:28:12 am
Hi, me 209 concept
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: blackkite on January 27, 2016, 03:04:38 pm
The glory of Me209V1 record breaker had bad influence for a design of successor of BF109 fighter.
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: blackkite on January 27, 2016, 06:35:39 pm
From Hitchcock (Messerschmitt O-Nine Gallery), p. 101:

"The RLM advised Messerschmitt to expedite development of a high altitude fighter by incorporating Me 209H systems directly into the Bf 109H program (see p. 92). Messerschmitt complied, but continued construction of the Me 209H V1, albeit on a low priority basis. Accordingly, early in 1943 a design was advanced based on the Me P.1091a resulting in the Me 209H. Although it was not fitted to the Me 209H V1, the DB 627B [I think this should be DB628 based on other references Hitchcock makes] was selected. Delays protracted its completion until June 1944, and by this time the Me 209 and the DB 627 programs had been cancelled. Therefore, the Me 209H V1 was completed with a DB 603G (similar to the DB 627 but lacking after-cooler and two-stage mechanical supercharger)."

So, there was the Me 209 V1 through V4 (the record-breaker), with the V4 being the proposed fighter.
Then followed the Me 309
Then the revised Me 209, usually called the Me 209-II.
Then the RLM wanted a high-altitude variant of the 209-II. It sounds, though, that the 209H was really a continuation of the stretched Bf 109 program (P.1091a), and only used some systems architecture from the 209A.


The picture posted at the start of this thread is of the Me 209V14, or at least that it what it is labl[/size]e[/size]d in this document.

According to an issue of Le Fana de L'Aviation this variant was proposed to the [/size]R[/size]LM in November of 1939. If you look at the drawing you can see many differences from the earlier 209s, as well as simularites to the later 309 and 209 developments.
[/size]
Source of this pic is Me-209 by David Myhra
Indeed.
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: sienar on January 27, 2016, 07:12:59 pm
Hi, me 209 concept

From myhras 209 book, right?

Likely late wind tunnel model of that design from this thread; http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9028.msg236807.html
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: sienar on January 27, 2016, 07:21:49 pm
The glory of Me209V1 record breaker had bad influence for a design of successor of BF109 fighter.

Yes, messerschmitts desire to minimize fuselage wetter area lead to short moment arms, which he coupled with small control surfaces that only worked effectively at higher speed.

There is a good break down of the envisioned development of the 309 at time of cancellation in one of my books. But I cant seem to find it right now.
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: blackkite on January 27, 2016, 07:29:59 pm
Oh ski?? :o We can see the radiator under the wing.
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: sienar on January 27, 2016, 10:16:06 pm
Oh ski?? :o We can see the radiator under the wing.

Likely just repurposing.

Wind tunnel models were expensive. Probably used for testing 109 skis.
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: Wurger on October 20, 2016, 03:04:58 pm
Dan, are you considering a third volume on the "Luftwaffe..." series?
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: Hood on October 22, 2016, 01:32:38 am
Dan,
Do you think the Germans might have been thinking about either transferring the development programme or the production programme to French industry before the Me 209 was cancelled?
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: newsdeskdan on October 22, 2016, 08:24:49 am
Dan, are you considering a third volume on the "Luftwaffe..." series?

Worth considering but not sure what it would cover.
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: newsdeskdan on October 22, 2016, 08:35:55 am
Dan,
Do you think the Germans might have been thinking about either transferring the development programme or the production programme to French industry before the Me 209 was cancelled?

Messerschmitt had a chronic shortage of capacity in both design and production at that point so it's possible. Only that drawing has French notes on - all the others in the same set are unanotated German. More research needed.
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: sienar on November 28, 2017, 05:58:49 pm
From some expired ebay auctions. Hope the data get published in full someday.
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: sienar on November 28, 2017, 05:59:49 pm
Pt 2
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: newsdeskdan on November 29, 2017, 12:04:49 am
From some expired ebay auctions. Hope the data get published in full someday.

Remarkable that of the six images shown in your first post, the last one is by far the most interesting - yet almost no one has tried to view it.
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: Wurger on November 29, 2017, 02:48:34 am
I see what you mean. The Me108 with a double Hirth engine is the most surprising to me. Unfortunatelly the text is trunked as well as incomplete.
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: sienar on April 08, 2018, 02:23:41 am
 B)
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: Nick Sumner on April 08, 2018, 03:39:34 am
I see what you mean. The Me108 with a double Hirth engine is the most surprising to me. Unfortunatelly the text is trunked as well as incomplete.

Me 108 with a double Hirth engine?

Wait, What?
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: sgeorges4 on April 08, 2018, 08:38:09 am
verry great!  ;D
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: richard B on April 08, 2018, 08:48:03 am
Do I read right in the last of the six images shown in your first post : "Me 327 , früher 263"  ?
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: newsdeskdan on April 08, 2018, 09:21:29 am
Do I read right in the last of the six images shown in your first post : "Me 327 , früher 263"  ?

Looks like the P 01-114, which became the original Me 263, was then redesignated Me 327.
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: sgeorges4 on June 03, 2018, 09:51:47 am
anything regarding a zwilling variant of the V5 one?
(https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wardrawings.be%2FWW2%2FImages%2F2-Airplanes%2FAxis%2F1-Germany%2F1-Fighters%2FMe-409%2Fp2.jpg&hash=5731764da37e7df446165cf15e0d0b43)
http://www.wardrawings.be/WW2/Files/2-Airplanes/Axis/1-Germany/01-Fighters/Me-Bf109/Me-409.htm
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: sgeorges4 on June 03, 2018, 09:54:23 am
Also,is this one historicaly accurate with original document or not?
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/hyperscale/messerschmitt-me-209-h-or-is-it-the-bf-109-v-55-t493959.html
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: hesham on June 03, 2018, 10:47:08 am
anything regarding a zwilling variant of the V5 one?
(https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wardrawings.be%2FWW2%2FImages%2F2-Airplanes%2FAxis%2F1-Germany%2F1-Fighters%2FMe-409%2Fp2.jpg&hash=5731764da37e7df446165cf15e0d0b43)
http://www.wardrawings.be/WW2/Files/2-Airplanes/Axis/1-Germany/01-Fighters/Me-Bf109/Me-409.htm

it's real or what ?.
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: sgeorges4 on June 03, 2018, 11:02:13 am
Is this doppel 209 is real or not?
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: newsdeskdan on June 04, 2018, 01:59:40 am
Is this doppel 209 is real or not?

I've never seen any evidence for it. I can't rule out its existence completely, but when the Do 335 had already defeated the Me 109 Zw and the Me 309 Zw had been dropped, why bother working on a Me 209 Zwilling?
Title: Re: Me209 as a fighter
Post by: hesham on June 17, 2018, 04:49:28 am
Is this doppel 209 is real or not?

I will check.