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Other Resources => Bookshelf & Marketplace => Topic started by: newsdeskdan on April 30, 2018, 02:44:56 pm

Title: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on April 30, 2018, 02:44:56 pm
The fourth in my Luftwaffe series.

Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
by Dan Sharp

Price: £6.99 in the UK. It's gone to press and should be out towards the back end of May.
If you've seen the 'unknown' chapters of my previous Luftwaffe titles, this is essentially a whole publication devoted to that.
Featuring contributions from forum members (alphabetical order): CiTrus90, Geist, Hamzalippischh, Skyraider3D and Zizi6785.

Contents:

Arado ‘Dreieck’
Arado ÜS-Flugzeug
Arado E 208
Arado Ar 233
Blohm & Voss BV 138 projects, P 81, P 84, P 85, P 86, P 94, P 110, P 111, P 112, P 144, P 145 and BV 238 Seefernaufklärer, Dornier P 93/Do 214 and P 173/Do 216, Heinkel He 120
Dornier P 209, P 215, P 231, P 232, P 238, P 252, P 254, P 256 and triple jet fighter
Dornier P 144, P 149, P 150, P 151, P 153, P 155, P 222, P 223, Do 317 and Do 417
DVL jet fighter
Focke-Wulf Grosstransporter
Gotha P-60.007
Gotha oddities
Guided weapons
Heinkel P 1076
Henschel P 75, P 87, P 90, P 108, P 122, P 130, P 135, P 136 and Hs 132
Junkers EF 116
Lippisch P 15 Diana
Messerschmitt Me 109 Zw, Me 309 Zw and Me 609
Messerschmitt Me 163 with canards
Messerschmitt P 1079
Messerschmitt Schnellstflugzeug
Zippermayr’s Pfeil Flugzeug
Zeppelin (FGZ) pulsejet fighter
And projects we only know about from text descriptions
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: Zizi6785 on May 01, 2018, 02:36:05 am
 ;D
I think this will be one of the best books on the luft46 subject!
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: athpilot on May 01, 2018, 03:37:29 am
Hi! Great News. I will of course buy it. Do you have a release date?

Ah, now I see: release probably end of may... Being so excited I read too fast ;D
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on May 01, 2018, 04:10:08 am
Hi! Great News. I will of course buy it. Do you have a release date?

Ah, now I see: release probably end of may... Being so excited I read too fast ;D

The on-sale date for retail is supposed to be May 21 but I think it's available to pre-order in any case.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: sienar on May 01, 2018, 12:58:53 pm
Looking forward to it!

Messerschmitt Me 109 Zw, Me 309 Zw and Me 609

Was the 609 a different project from the 309 Zw or just a case of designations being juggled around?
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on May 01, 2018, 02:29:15 pm
Looking forward to it!

Messerschmitt Me 109 Zw, Me 309 Zw and Me 609

Was the 609 a different project from the 309 Zw or just a case of designations being juggled around?

The Me 309 Zw is two Me 309 fuselages joined together. The Me 609 is the Me 262. I found a number of references to documents about the Me 609 and on retrieving them was surprised to discover that they all related to the Me 262 (see attached examples) and had nothing to do with the twin-fuselage Me 309. I asked Dan Johnson about it and he pointed me to Willy Messerschmitt - Pioneer of Aviation Design by Erbert, Kaiser and Peters which, on p296, describes the Me 609 as "cover designation for test-ready Me 262s". The evidence certainly backs up that description.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: Zizi6785 on May 02, 2018, 03:15:01 am
https://www.classicmagazines.co.uk/product/5540/bookazine-luftwaffe-secret-designs-of-the-third-reich (https://www.classicmagazines.co.uk/product/5540/bookazine-luftwaffe-secret-designs-of-the-third-reich)

Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: elmayerle on May 02, 2018, 10:46:40 am
Definitely looking forward to this one.  It promises to be as enjoyable, and useful, a read as your previous works.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: Wurger on May 02, 2018, 11:38:36 am
I`ve just pre-ordered it :D!Dan, what`s that design in the top left corner?
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on May 02, 2018, 01:52:06 pm
I`ve just pre-ordered it :D!Dan, what`s that design in the top left corner?

DVL jet fighter. It's a shame it doesn't have a 'proper' designation but the document it's shown in doesn't give it one.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: sgeorges4 on May 02, 2018, 10:12:14 pm
Will you add the messerschmitt me P.1099 in your next book?
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on May 03, 2018, 12:27:12 am
Will you add the messerschmitt me P.1099 in your next book?

Probably a bit early to be discussing the next one. But possibly.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: athpilot on May 03, 2018, 02:50:32 am
Preordered! I´m especially curious on the chapter about the Zippermayr "Pfeil". Not much is mentioned about it in other sources (as far as I know.)

And I also have a preference in the now ongoing discussion on a (possible) follow up: Lippisch, Lippisch and Lippisch!

Greetings,
Athpilot
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: Wurger on May 03, 2018, 03:25:54 am
DVL jet fighter :o! According to Kay, DVL was working on a turbojet of it`s own. Was this design meant for it?
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on May 03, 2018, 04:33:16 am
Preordered! I´m especially curious on the chapter about the Zippermayr "Pfeil". Not much is mentioned about it in other sources (as far as I know.)

And I also have a preference in the now ongoing discussion on a (possible) follow up: Lippisch, Lippisch and Lippisch!

Greetings,
Athpilot

There's a bit of Lippisch in this one - the Me 163 with canards was a design patented by Messerschmitt AG on Lippisch's behalf several months before Willy Messerschmitt had his own V-tail idea patented. Lippisch also patented a version with forward-swept wings (!). I've gathered a fair bit more Lippisch material since Luftwaffe: Secret Wings but I don't know whether I want to go back to tailless and flying wings again so soon.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on May 03, 2018, 04:37:19 am
DVL jet fighter :o! According to Kay, DVL was working on a turbojet of it`s own. Was this design meant for it?

The type of turbojet isn't specified. It's more about the aerodynamics - when you read it, you'll see what I mean.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: Wurger on May 03, 2018, 04:39:59 am
Can`t wait for it!
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: richard B on May 06, 2018, 12:01:22 am
Is the big cover illustration a variation of the Messerschmitt P.1079 ?
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: Zizi6785 on May 06, 2018, 03:46:31 am
Is the big cover illustration a variation of the Messerschmitt P.1079 ?

Zeppelin (FGZ) pulsejet fighter
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: richard B on May 06, 2018, 09:30:07 am
Thank you .
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on May 09, 2018, 07:10:10 am
Back from the printers today...
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: GTX on May 09, 2018, 09:43:46 am
Looking good.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: Zizi6785 on May 09, 2018, 11:50:01 am
 ;D Good to see my work!
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: hesham on May 13, 2018, 06:35:24 am
Amazing book my dear Dan.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: athpilot on May 14, 2018, 02:22:45 am
Amazing! A P-15 like I never seen before... B)
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on May 14, 2018, 03:28:33 am
Amazing! A P-15 like I never seen before... B)

I was, frankly, stunned to discover the 11 or 12 different versions of the P 15 that Lippisch sketched out before binning them all and deciding that the P 15 should be a 'bitsa' aircraft instead.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: hesham on May 14, 2018, 07:49:58 am
Of course very great work,

but something is missing,the DVL Rammer aircraft;

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,24835.msg315943.html#msg315943
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: Zizi6785 on May 14, 2018, 08:25:37 am
Why missing? The DVL Rammer is a known project.

Of course very great work,

but something is missing,the DVL Rammer aircraft;

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,24835.msg315943.html#msg315943
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on May 15, 2018, 02:29:51 am
Of course very great work,

but something is missing,the DVL Rammer aircraft;

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,24835.msg315943.html#msg315943

Luftwaffe: Secret Designs is not a comprehensive collection of anything, nor was it ever intended to be. It's a selection of little known or previously unknown designs upon which I felt I had more or new details to offer.
I should tell you that I have nearly enough material for another volume in the same vein if the demand for it is there. And I if it is, I won't be including the DVL rammer in that one either, I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: Wurger on May 15, 2018, 04:53:54 am
newsdeskdan wrote:
Quote
I have nearly enough material for another volume in the same vein if the demand for it is there.

Please do publish more!

Dan, do you have something on the Arado proposal for a radial engined fighter, tendered by Rüdiger Kosin around 1938?
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on May 15, 2018, 06:50:11 am
newsdeskdan wrote:
Quote
I have nearly enough material for another volume in the same vein if the demand for it is there.

Please do publish more!

Dan, do you have something on the Arado proposal for a radial engined fighter, tendered by Rüdiger Kosin around 1938?

I have a few other Arado things but not that one unfortunately. I have to admit that I tend to actively pursue wartime projects to the detriment of pre-war material.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: hesham on May 15, 2018, 08:28:42 am
newsdeskdan wrote:
Quote
I have nearly enough material for another volume in the same vein if the demand for it is there.

Please do publish more!

Dan, do you have something on the Arado proposal for a radial engined fighter, tendered by Rüdiger Kosin around 1938?

What was it ?.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: Wurger on May 15, 2018, 10:15:09 am
Please see:

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4516.msg35836.html#msg35836

Reply#7
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: CiTrus90 on May 15, 2018, 11:39:29 pm
My copy has arrived safe and sound yesterday, and even with just a quick skim it looks awsome ;)

Thanks for having me on board Dan, it's always a pleasure to work with you!
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: hesham on May 16, 2018, 08:16:49 am
Please see:

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4516.msg35836.html#msg35836

Reply#7

Thanks.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: sienar on May 18, 2018, 01:24:18 am
Really good work! Especially the info on the 1079, the rotated engine is a really interesting solution to the problem of the supercharger.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on May 18, 2018, 01:57:42 am
Really good work! Especially the info on the 1076, the rotated engine is a really interesting solution to the problem of the supercharger.

Yes, although it makes the aircraft look a bit, erm, bent.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: Richard N on May 18, 2018, 03:41:50 am
The digital edition of Luftwaffe Secret Designs of the Third Reich is available from Pocketmags here:  https://pocketmags.com/us/aviation-classics-magazine/luftwaffe-secret-designs-of-the-third-reich
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: EPMUC on May 20, 2018, 10:08:01 am
The digital edition of Luftwaffe Secret Designs of the Third Reich is available from Pocketmags here:  https://pocketmags.com/us/aviation-classics-magazine/luftwaffe-secret-designs-of-the-third-reich
Got it already. Its a very interesting Book.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: sienar on May 26, 2018, 01:05:36 am
Is there any indication in the P222 drawings of where the port exhaust would have gone? And is there any data on the take off weight and empty weight of this design?
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on May 26, 2018, 10:55:42 am
Is there any indication in the P222 drawings of where the port exhaust would have gone? And is there any data on the take off weight and empty weight of this design?

It's unclear. I've attached the highest res version of the drawings I have. No weight data either I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: sienar on May 27, 2018, 07:05:58 am
Thank you!

Both drawings show an intake in the front view right where the exhaust is which is likely for cooling the port exhaust. A shame that there is no detail about where that exhaust goes though. Dumping it into the radiator exit would make a lot of sense....

The 9-12 must have a Jumo engine as the supercharger is on the right. Both designs look like they would be really under-powered though.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: sgeorges4 on May 29, 2018, 10:13:41 am
I've bought it,and it's a really nice book for me with a lot of unknow document.  ;D
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: gatoraptor on May 30, 2018, 06:43:22 am
Has anyone seen it for sale in the U.S. as of yet?  I haven't...
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: steelpillow on May 30, 2018, 06:50:31 am
Just turned up in my local newsagent, here in the UK. WH Smith may have been voted the worst high street retailer in the UK but they are the BEST newsagent anywhere near me.

Dan, so many nuggets of pure gold, I hardly know where to start - canards, shark's fins, twin fuselages, B&V asymmetric flying boats, the list of never-before-revealed wonders is truly - well, I am lost for words so, er - beyond words.

My absolute solid platinum favourite has to be the DVL outboard-tail prone-pilot tandem-fuselage jet fighter. I would never, ever have believed it if it was not from our own Newsdesk Dan doing his legendary thing with original documents and drawings. I suspect that it may actually be a two-stage plane rather than a single tandem design, as the intermediate "tail" makes no aerodynamic sense while the two are conjoined. The final sketch also has nose and tail fairings dotted in, though whether fixed or jettisonable is not clear. The outboard tail might look a touch small when the front half is flying alone, but wind tunnel work had shown that it was more effective than a conventional one so did not need to be so large. The B&V ones were not as small because they were brought forward on shorter booms instead - especially the P 215 - which reduced their efficiency back to normal.
By the way, Pohlmann's story of the B&V aircraft works had more to say about this line of projects than his colleagues did, but he too is silent on whose idea it was.

Keep that next one coming!
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on May 30, 2018, 06:54:47 am
Has anyone seen it for sale in the U.S. as of yet?  I haven't...

I'm told there is usually a six week lag, so expect to see it on sale towards the end of June/early July.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: gatoraptor on May 30, 2018, 12:23:46 pm
Has anyone seen it for sale in the U.S. as of yet?  I haven't...

I'm told there is usually a six week lag, so expect to see it on sale towards the end of June/early July.

We can fly cargo across the Atlantic in 8 hours or less, and even cargo ships can make the journey in less than a week, so it always puzzles me why British publications always take so long to make it here to the colonies.  I think that "slow boat" doesn't go to China, it comes here!
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: steelpillow on May 30, 2018, 12:59:47 pm
I think that "slow boat" doesn't go to China, it comes here!

It goes to China first. :(
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on May 30, 2018, 01:55:44 pm
Has anyone seen it for sale in the U.S. as of yet?  I haven't...

I'm told there is usually a six week lag, so expect to see it on sale towards the end of June/early July.

We can fly cargo across the Atlantic in 8 hours or less, and even cargo ships can make the journey in less than a week, so it always puzzles me why British publications always take so long to make it here to the colonies.  I think that "slow boat" doesn't go to China, it comes here!

You could always order it direct from classicmagazines.co.uk although this apparently adds £4.45 to the price, making the overall price a not inconsiderable $15.20 (£11.44).  :(
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on May 30, 2018, 02:02:21 pm
Just turned up in my local newsagent, here in the UK. WH Smith may have been voted the worst high street retailer in the UK but they are the BEST newsagent anywhere near me.

Dan, so many nuggets of pure gold, I hardly know where to start - canards, shark's fins, twin fuselages, B&V asymmetric flying boats, the list of never-before-revealed wonders is truly - well, I am lost for words so, er - beyond words.

My absolute solid platinum favourite has to be the DVL outboard-tail prone-pilot tandem-fuselage jet fighter. I would never, ever have believed it if it was not from our own Newsdesk Dan doing his legendary thing with original documents and drawings. I suspect that it may actually be a two-stage plane rather than a single tandem design, as the intermediate "tail" makes no aerodynamic sense while the two are conjoined. The final sketch also has nose and tail fairings dotted in, though whether fixed or jettisonable is not clear. The outboard tail might look a touch small when the front half is flying alone, but wind tunnel work had shown that it was more effective than a conventional one so did not need to be so large. The B&V ones were not as small because they were brought forward on shorter booms instead - especially the P 215 - which reduced their efficiency back to normal.
By the way, Pohlmann's story of the B&V aircraft works had more to say about this line of projects than his colleagues did, but he too is silent on whose idea it was.

Keep that next one coming!

I also shop regularly at WHSmith - can't see what the problem is. There's a lot of diverse material in Luftwaffe: Secret Designs and it worries me that such a broad range might put people off. Depending on how this one does I'll either go back to a more focused approach for the next one or put out a second volume of oddities.

UPDATE: I received this 3D printed model of one of the newly discovered aircraft designs featured in Luftwaffe: Secret Designs this morning (see attached - 1/144 scale Arado 'Dreieck'). Modelled by contributing artist and forum member Hamzalippischh and produced by Shapeways in the US.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: gatoraptor on May 31, 2018, 05:36:05 pm
UPDATE: I received this 3D printed model of one of the newly discovered aircraft designs featured in Luftwaffe: Secret Designs this morning (see attached - 1/144 scale Arado 'Dreieck'). Modelled by contributing artist and forum member Hamzalippischh and produced by Shapeways in the US.

Or, in other words, who really designed the A-12?  Maybe Frito-Lay got the idea for Doritos from the Germans.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on June 01, 2018, 12:13:53 am
UPDATE: I received this 3D printed model of one of the newly discovered aircraft designs featured in Luftwaffe: Secret Designs this morning (see attached - 1/144 scale Arado 'Dreieck'). Modelled by contributing artist and forum member Hamzalippischh and produced by Shapeways in the US.

Or, in other words, who really designed the A-12?  Maybe Frito-Lay got the idea for Doritos from the Germans.

It does seem to be a remarkably similar shape to the A-12 (albeit with a fin and protruding engine housings), but not much like a Dorito, sadly. I think Frito-Lay are more likely to have got the idea from the Hortens' H X or Lippisch's DM-3.  ;)
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: Wurger on June 01, 2018, 07:00:56 am
Just got mine here in Europe`s westernmost corner! It is absolutelly packed with excelent stuff for the Luftwaffe buffs. I would start to review the preface, and asking Dan to please ID the quad (20mm MG151?) tail turret on the top, next to the Fw 191 cabin view. To which project did it belong to? Also, on the left bottom page, I didn`t knew that the Ta 254A-1 projected nightfighter had a hood, on a B-stand, I presume facing rearwards.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on June 01, 2018, 08:36:51 am
Just got mine here in Europe`s westernmost corner! It is absolutelly packed with excelent stuff for the Luftwaffe buffs. I would start to review the preface, and asking Dan to please ID the quad (20mm MG151?) tail turret on the top, next to the Fw 191 cabin view. To which project did it belong to? Also, on the left bottom page, I didn`t knew that the Ta 254A-1 projected nightfighter had a hood, on a B-stand, I presume facing rearwards.

The Focke-Wulf tail turret is dated November 21, 1942, but was from a bundle of design papers, rather than being included in a particular report so the aircraft it was intended for is unknown to me. Yes, there was apparently a proposal to include a rear-facing turret on the Ta 254 A-1 and the drawing shows profiles and weights for a DL131/1 (solid line, 340.2kg), DL15/131 (double-dotted line, 302.5kg) and WL131 (single-dotted line, 283kg).

The drawings around the edge of the preface show (clockwise from the Me 609 in the top left corner), Heinkel P 1079 (otherwise unknown version), Focke-Wulf Ta 153 wing detail design, Focke-Wulf tail turret, Fw 191 cabin brochure drawing, Dornier Do 335 wind tunnel model with pointed nose, DFS Robbe test flight photos, BMW 028 turboprop, Blohm & Voss BV 141 B cabin layouts, AVA 'large aeroplane' designs, Arado Ar 240 V1 WNr. 0001 weights, Arado Ar 65 aerodynamics, Focke-Wulf Ta 254 A-1 turrets, Junkers EF 100 breakaway zones, Junkers Ju 85 mock-up, Messerschmitt Enzian E1 scale plan, Messerschmitt Me 210 wind tunnel model and Me 209 wing test model and Messerschmitt Me 328 flight test photos.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: Wurger on June 01, 2018, 09:21:03 am
Dan, is it possible to have the tail turret reproduced here? Does that design paper bundle included more armament schemes?
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on June 01, 2018, 12:51:45 pm
Dan, is it possible to have the tail turret reproduced here? Does that design paper bundle included more armament schemes?

Sure, but that's all there is I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: richard B on June 02, 2018, 04:26:31 am
Hello!

The book is still unavailable in France :

Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on June 02, 2018, 08:35:30 am
Hello!

The book is still unavailable in France :

I'll make enquiries about the retail situation in France on Monday.

UPDATE: I'm told we're in touch with Amazon to try and get the issue of sales via Amazon.fr resolved. Apparently it's not quite as simple as just ticking a box in the management console.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: Zizi6785 on June 11, 2018, 12:15:26 am
It was fast :)

Lonewulf Models:
"Latest 1/72 conversion set straight out of the mould, fits like a dream. Its the Junkers Canard wings for the Messerschmitt Me 163. Junkers wind tunnel tested these wings to see if it could improve the control of the Me 163. They weren't the first, Lippisch had experimented with the idea of retractable canards. Will be on e-bay during the week."
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: moin1900 on June 14, 2018, 04:22:51 am
Received my copy. Excellent work. Great articles. Very nice artwork. Lots of drawings of unknown and very unusal projects. And lots of descriptions of very unknown projects, like in the article about the Henschel projects. A must have for everyone who is interested in the history of the german aircraft designs during WW2.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: sgeorges4 on June 15, 2018, 10:27:21 am
On Shapeways: https://www.shapeways.com/product/48JJ6DRPW/1-144-messerschmitt-schnellstflugzeug?optionId=65715327
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: gatoraptor on June 25, 2018, 06:12:38 am
Finally got a copy of this in the U.S., though as usual for this series, it was not easy, as the local outlets in the Atlanta area still don't carry it.

But I had an engagement in Guntersville, Alabama, and while there drove an hour north to Huntsville, a city with (still) a significant German presence.  I went mainly to eat at a good German restaurant, but while there I popped into a Barnes & Noble bookstore, and, voila!  They had a bunch of copies.

I had bought a previous volume in this series at a bookstore in Dayton, Ohio, so maybe the rule is: if you can't find it in your hometown bookstore, go to a place with either a large German presence or a large aviation one!

Oh, and the publication is fabulous.  This series really puts the "book" in "bookazine"!
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: Richard N on June 25, 2018, 01:08:07 pm
I went by my local Barnes and Noble in Fort Worth, Texas and found that they had significantly cut back on their UK magazine selections and I guess that may come down to the discretion of the local managers and I haven't found LSDotTR there.  I've gone completely digital for all of my UK publications with the advantages of lower price, painless instant acquisition, and always knowing I can find any part of my digital library on any of my computers or tablets. 

I got my digital edition of LSDotTR from Pocketmags within seconds of finding it on their site.  They have holiday sales every few months with prices much less than paper and a couple of times a year have $.99 back issue sales for magazines that might have been $10 and a 30 mile drive for me for the paper version.

Digital is the future for long out of print and vary rare books.  MMP just releasing the great B-24 book "Consolidated Mess" in a Kindle Digital Edition is a great example.  It was out for a short time for about $50 and prices for it from sites like ABE Books and Amazon are now in the thousands of dollars.  The Kindle release is $19!  I have the original book and bought the Kindle version and compared them and the Kindle version is complete as the original.  A pdf of "System 37 Viggen" was recently made available on SP and that is an unobtainium book in print form and another advantage of the pdf form over paper is that it is copy and pastable text so you can copy the text in the original Swedish and past it into Google Translate for your native language. 

My last relocation move (paid for by a large defense contractor) placed my 20,000 lbs of stuff at my current location.  A significant portion of that weight and volume was books and magazines.  I truly appreciate the characteristic of digital publications that they have no physical size or weight and cannot be harmed by bugs or climate that are the bane of paper books.

I imagine that if our conciosnesses were uploaded to a virtual existance, we would have our digital books to read whereas our physical books would require the burden of scanning and connection to an appropriate interface by someone or something left in the physical world.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: PaulMM (Overscan) on June 25, 2018, 02:31:54 pm
Agreed. Most "bookazines" are pretty lightweight in terms of research and content - Dan's publications are in a whole different league and very inspiring. I have a desire to do a similar bookazine on a subject of great interest to me.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on June 26, 2018, 01:11:30 am
Hello!

The book is still unavailable in France :

Sorry for the delay - the bookazine should now be available to buy in France direct from Amazon.fr.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on June 26, 2018, 01:27:54 am
Agreed. Most "bookazines" are pretty lightweight in terms of research and content - Dan's publications are in a whole different league and very inspiring. I have a desire to do a similar bookazine on a subject of great interest to me.

Thanks - I've found bookazines to be an excellent way of getting my work published in a quality format which is relatively inexpensive for people to buy. I agree that most bookazines are light reads covering fairly familiar territory, and I've bought plenty like that which I've enjoyed, but I think there is also a place for bookazines which offer content based on new research.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: steelpillow on June 27, 2018, 03:32:08 am
The main problem with the Mortons bookazines is the very thin covers, no different from the main pages. By contrast the "Aeroplane Special" series have a thicker grade paper, almost a thin card, for the covers and they are much more durable.
Would Mortons consider producing a protective dust cover or binder, ideally transparent? I'd certainly buy four of them.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on June 27, 2018, 05:45:11 am
The main problem with the Mortons bookazines is the very thin covers, no different from the main pages. By contrast the "Aeroplane Special" series have a thicker grade paper, almost a thin card, for the covers and they are much more durable.
Would Mortons consider producing a protective dust cover or binder, ideally transparent? I'd certainly buy four of them.

I'm told that there are no plans for a dust cover or binder. In terms of the cover, apparently it would be possible to make the covers thicker if the content was knocked down to 100 pages, rather than 132, or the price was increased above £6.99 (same price for the last four years). I understand the desire for a thicker cover but I would rather keep the extra space for content if I can.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: Wurger on June 27, 2018, 11:11:10 am
Quote
I would rather keep the extra space for content if I can.

I completely agree! Dan, do you have an idea of what your next bookazine on Luftwaffe projects will be?
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: steelpillow on June 27, 2018, 01:40:29 pm
Quote
I would rather keep the extra space for content if I can.

I completely agree!

Yes indeed. Personally I'd be happy to pay an extra quid or so for a thicker cover, but I can understand you folks wanting to keep the price as low as possible.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on June 27, 2018, 11:52:40 pm
Quote
I would rather keep the extra space for content if I can.

I completely agree! Dan, do you have an idea of what your next bookazine on Luftwaffe projects will be?

Another selection of completely unknown designs and not-very-well-known designs upon which I think I can shed a little more light.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: Wurger on June 28, 2018, 04:18:49 am
Dan, do you have enough stuff to produce an edition on "secret" subsystems, e.g. aircraft engines and armament?
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on June 28, 2018, 05:09:03 am
Dan, do you have enough stuff to produce an edition on "secret" subsystems, e.g. aircraft engines and armament?

Engines - more than enough, too much if anything, although I'm not sure what the wider level of interest on that would be. Armament - possibly, although I haven't specifically sought out unusual or 'secret' weapons systems. Missiles and glide bombs would probably also be possible. Again, not sure how well received that would be. However, I've more than enough aircraft projects to report on in the meantime.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: Zizi6785 on June 28, 2018, 06:43:16 am
It received after the Deadline  :)
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: steelpillow on June 28, 2018, 07:01:13 am
Another selection of completely unknown designs and not-very-well-known designs upon which I think I can shed a little more light.

Luftwaffe: Secret Projects of the Third Reich?
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on June 28, 2018, 07:32:49 am
Another selection of completely unknown designs and not-very-well-known designs upon which I think I can shed a little more light.

Luftwaffe: Secret Projects of the Third Reich?

That takes it a little close to the Schick/Herwig books, not to mention Griehl's US books. I'll think of something.  ;)
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: Wurger on June 28, 2018, 08:03:07 am
You could always put the experimental or projected engines and armament within the aircraft content. I wonder if you could publish more on that Arado aircraft turret report of yours... B)
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on June 28, 2018, 02:42:43 pm
You could always put the experimental or projected engines and armament within the aircraft content. I wonder if you could publish more on that Arado aircraft turret report of yours... B)

There are a few missiles in Luftwaffe: Secret Designs and I will probably include at least one potentially hugely destructive, but also rather zany, air-to-air weapon that I don't think has ever been detailed before in the next one. I might well include a bit more of the Arado turrets report. Other items on the list of potential subjects include what DFS Eber really looked like, Heinkel's 'zombie' bomber and a previously unknown, and radical, version of the Ta 152.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: gatoraptor on June 28, 2018, 06:20:58 pm
I suppose there weren't enough designs of helicopters and other rotorcraft to fill up an entire issue?
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on June 28, 2018, 11:53:08 pm
I suppose there weren't enough designs of helicopters and other rotorcraft to fill up an entire issue?

There were, and that might be one for the future.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: Wurger on June 29, 2018, 01:37:59 am
Dan, the lesser known german aircraft manufacturers/design bureaus aren`t well represented in literature. Do you have material on AGO, Fieseler, Siebel, Bücker, Hütter Klemm, Gotha, Skoda-Kauba or Zeppelin?

Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on June 29, 2018, 03:45:13 am
Dan, the lesser known german aircraft manufacturers/design bureaus aren`t well represented in literature. Do you have material on AGO, Fieseler, Siebel, Bücker, Hütter, Klemm, Gotha, Skoda-Kauba or Zeppelin?

I have a lot from Gotha and scraps from Fieseler, Hütter, Skoda-Kauba and Zeppelin (which worked almost exclusively on other people's projects). AGO, Siebel and Bücker were all captured by the Soviets and therefore 'lost'. This has resulted in large gaps in our knowledge of German WW2 'projects'. While the western Allies got most of the major manufacturers' material, Heinkel's projects material almost all went to the Soviets (though Ernst Heinkel was initially under the impression that he'd made sure the western Allies would get it) along with the likes of Henschel and the others mentioned. Anecdotally, most of Skoda-Kauba's documents were burned, and there does seem to be some truth in that. A lot of Focke-Wulf material survived but mostly from Flugmechanik L under Wolff and (to a lesser extent) Flugmechanik E under Mathias. Documents from the actual Focke-Wulf projects office under Mittelhuber are conspicuous by their absence. Robert Forsyth has said that these were destroyed and it seems as though that might indeed have been the case.
Klemm ought to have been captured by the western Allies but if that was the case I've no idea what happened to their documents. Junkers is interesting because all of that company's documents ought to have been captured by the Americans but if that is the case then very few 'projects' documents seem to have survived for some reason. Messerschmitt and Arado material was, again, captured by the western Allies but as with Focke-Wulf there are plenty of gaps in the projects material.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: steelpillow on June 29, 2018, 05:23:39 am
I suppose there weren't enough designs of helicopters and other rotorcraft to fill up an entire issue?

There were, and that might be one for the future.

The not too distant future I trust. B) :) :D ;D
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: sienar on June 29, 2018, 08:58:18 am
Personally I'd like to see the Focke Wulf 159 design studies and the late 30s Arado radial fighter you mentioned. The 309 would be nice too, especially details on the radiator installation.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on June 29, 2018, 10:34:08 am
Personally I'd like to see the Focke Wulf 159 design studies and the late 30s Arado radial fighter you mentioned. The 309 would be nice too, especially details on the radiator installation.

The 159 design studies are a candidate for the next one, thanks to Jemiba's efforts in transcribing and translating the accompanying notes for me. The Arado fighter's still on the shelf. There appears to have been a huge amount of work done on the 309's radiator and I could certainly expand a great deal on that. One of the potential options for the next Luftwaffe: Secret was piston-engined fighters, but I decided against it because the Ta 153 vs Me 209 and Me 409/Me 155/Me 109 H/Me 309 H/Me 209 H/P 1091/BV 155 stories are proving too complex to pull together in the short term. I need more time on those.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: steelpillow on June 29, 2018, 11:26:06 am
I need more time on those.

Luftwaffe: Secret Rotorcraft of the Third Reich should buy you that time, while the current popularity of VTOL drones and "flying car" autogyros would make it an excellent eyecatcher. Only problem is, you already used the Triebflûgel cover art. ;)
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on June 29, 2018, 01:31:53 pm
I need more time on those.

Luftwaffe: Secret Rotorcraft of the Third Reich should buy you that time, while the current popularity of VTOL drones and "flying car" autogyros would make it an excellent eyecatcher. Only problem is, you already used the Triebflûgel cover art. ;)

I doubt helicopters will follow the next 'unknowns' but we'll see.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: gatoraptor on June 29, 2018, 06:25:50 pm
I guess the Triebflugel is technically a rotorcraft.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on June 30, 2018, 10:56:28 am
I guess the Triebflugel is technically a rotorcraft.

Yes. I think I have at least one design drawing of the Triebflugeljager that's not been in print before (discovered after I wrote about it in Luftwaffe: Secret Jets). The Heinkel Lerche and Wespe are also technically rotorcraft.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: sienar on June 30, 2018, 11:25:41 am
Personally I'd like to see the Focke Wulf 159 design studies and the late 30s Arado radial fighter you mentioned. The 309 would be nice too, especially details on the radiator installation.

The 159 design studies are a candidate for the next one, thanks to Jemiba's efforts in transcribing and translating the accompanying notes for me. The Arado fighter's still on the shelf. There appears to have been a huge amount of work done on the 309's radiator and I could certainly expand a great deal on that. One of the potential options for the next Luftwaffe: Secret was piston-engined fighters, but I decided against it because the Ta 153 vs Me 209 and Me 409/Me 155/Me 109 H/Me 309 H/Me 209 H/P 1091/BV 155 stories are proving too complex to pull together in the short term. I need more time on those.

Do you know what type of airfoil the 309 used? Lots of books claim it was a laminar section but I'm pretty sure that is not the case.

Have you uncovered anything on the swept wing 309 development?
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: steelpillow on June 30, 2018, 12:22:46 pm
I guess the Triebflugel is technically a rotorcraft.

Yes. I think I have at least one design drawing of the Triebflugeljager that's not been in print before (discovered after I wrote about it in Luftwaffe: Secret Jets). The Heinkel Lerche and Wespe are also technically rotorcraft.

There's a bit of a grey area between rotorcraft on the one hand and hybrids like convertiplanes, stop-rotors and powered lift aircraft on the other. Is the V-22 Osprey tiltrotor a "rotorcraft"? Boeing think so, but I am not sure that everybody would agree. The French FAI would at one time have classified it as a Convertiplane, though I don't know if they still do. The American FAA would probably classify ducted prop/rotor types such as the Heinkels as Powered Lift.
Mostly everybody is pretty vague until a design actually flies and the regulatory bodies have to start making their minds up. To some extent one can distinguish between customary engineering terminology and local regulatory terminology. Engineers usually agree that it doesn't matter as long as you know what you are talking about, until somebody writes an overly-dogmatic textbook. National regulators usually disagree until somebody writes an international standard.
At the end of the day, you can be pretty flexible about it and everybody will just be glad that you included their favourite weird stuff.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on June 30, 2018, 03:05:42 pm
Personally I'd like to see the Focke Wulf 159 design studies and the late 30s Arado radial fighter you mentioned. The 309 would be nice too, especially details on the radiator installation.

The 159 design studies are a candidate for the next one, thanks to Jemiba's efforts in transcribing and translating the accompanying notes for me. The Arado fighter's still on the shelf. There appears to have been a huge amount of work done on the 309's radiator and I could certainly expand a great deal on that. One of the potential options for the next Luftwaffe: Secret was piston-engined fighters, but I decided against it because the Ta 153 vs Me 209 and Me 409/Me 155/Me 109 H/Me 309 H/Me 209 H/P 1091/BV 155 stories are proving too complex to pull together in the short term. I need more time on those.

Do you know what type of airfoil the 309 used? Lots of books claim it was a laminar section but I'm pretty sure that is not the case.

Have you uncovered anything on the swept wing 309 development?

I must admit to not being particularly au fait with the different NACA airfoils but some drawings I have show NACA 13012, others NACA 15014.5, and tests appear to have been done using variations on NACA 0012. There are references to it having a 'symmetrical airfoil'. Does any of that mean anything to you? There is at least one document I've seen on tests of a 309 model with a 'thin wing' in September 1943 - three months before all work on the 309 apparently ceased.
I've never seen anything on a swept wing development of the 309. However, I wouldn't rule it out. The 309 was in development from mid-1941 to the end of 1943 - plenty of time to try different arrangements. The key characteristics that Messerschmitt hoped to build into its design were a sliding canopy, pressure cabin (it's been suggested that it would have an ejection seat too), wide-track inwards-retracting tricycle undercarriage, retractable radiator, reversible pitch propeller - and the capability to accept much larger engines than the 109 could. Wing, tail and radiator shapes appear to have been fairly fluid, much like those of the Me 209. I have an AVA report on wind tunnel tests of 22 different radiator shapes for the 309 and I've no doubt that there were many more.
Early on, it was intended that it should take the DB 603 A or Jumo 213, but other potential powerplants included the DB 622, DB 627 and DB 628 (an Allied report also suggests the DB 609). The DB 603 G was only brought in towards the end of the development cycle. I have an Allied intelligence report which suggests that Messerschmitt had worked on a version of the 309 with tandem engines, A DB 605 in front of the cockpit and a second behind it, with the extension shaft running under the pilot's seat and a contra-rotating propeller. The way the report is written seems very authoritative but I've seen nothing from Messerschmitt itself to support this idea. The same report mentions the 309 as having a thin aerofoil section, making it difficult to install cannon in the wings.
I've also seen material suggesting that the 309's characteristic tricycle undercarriage was actually abandoned towards the end in favour of a conventional tail-sitter layout.
Again, research on the Me 309 is a work in progress.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: Wurger on July 01, 2018, 09:06:20 am
Quote
The Arado fighter's still on the shelf

Sorry, please explain: do you have it? I mean Rudiger Kosin`s answer to the I-16.
Kranzhoff also tell us about an alternative single engined carrier based Arado torpedo bomber, as opposed to the twin engined E310.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on July 01, 2018, 09:18:56 am
Quote
The Arado fighter's still on the shelf

Sorry, please explain: do you have it? I mean Rudiger Kosin`s answer to the I-16.
Kranzhoff also tell us about an alternative single engined carrier based Arado torpedo bomber, as opposed to the twin engined E310.

No, I don't think the radial-engined fighter design I have is what you mean. It's not a torpedo bomber.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: steelpillow on July 01, 2018, 12:55:39 pm
I must admit to not being particularly au fait with the different NACA airfoils but some drawings I have show NACA 13012, others NACA 15014.5, and tests appear to have been done using variations on NACA 0012. There are references to it having a 'symmetrical airfoil'. Does any of that mean anything to you?

Of the aerofoils cited, the first two are broadly conventional while NACA 0012 is both laminar-flow and symmetrical.

Most aerofoils have a "hump" at the front, thickest around say 25% back from the leading edge, where they curve the most and then straighten out towards the rear. This hump causes turbulence, roughly speaking backwards from its highest point, and that causes drag.

A laminar design keeps the smooth front airflow for longer, by moving the thickest point further back to say 40%. It is only "laminar" in a nominal kind of way because at least 60% of the flow is still turbulent. It gives you less drag at high speeds, the penalty being slightly higher drag at low speeds.

The centre line of a conventional aerofoil curves upwards underneath the hump. This is called camber. A symmetrical aerofoil is the same above and below and therefore must have zero camber. It is less efficient than a cambered equivalent, so is not normally used. However in violent manoeuvring when the aeroplane is all which ways up, its inverted flight characteristics are as good as ever, while a cambered aerofoil is seriously disadvantaged. So symmetrical aerofoils are common on aerobatic specials and are - or were - sometimes considered for air-to-air combat dogfighters.

Because both features tend to "smooth out" the hump a bit, they can also give good transonic properties, with a higher critical Mach number (i.e. a delayed shock buildup) compared to the conventional cambered equivalent of the same thickness.

NACA 0012 must have been a promising candidate for a fast jet fighter. The variations on it would have been in thickness-chord ratio, its "thinness".

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: Wurger on July 01, 2018, 01:11:21 pm
Quote
No, I don't think the radial-engined fighter design I have is what you mean. It's not a torpedo bomber.

I mean the 1938 radial engined Arado fighter project submited by Rüdiger Kosin and Van Nes to Walter Blume and then to the RLM. They made their proposal after inspecting a Polikarpov I-16 captured in Spain. The very short story can be read at Kosin`s book "The German Fighter Since 1915", originally printed as "Die Entwicklung der Deutschen Jagdflugzeuge".

The torpedo-bomber I mentioned is refered in Jörg Armin Kranzhoff`s book "Die Arado-Flugzeuge. Vom Doppeldecker zum Strahlflugzeug". He tells about the carrier-borne Arado E310 and states its 5 (known) versions: a 1940 single engined (DB601) project, and 4 twin engined (DB 601, Jumo 210, As 402 and BMW 132). We know the As 402 version, and another with BMW 800 posted by me some years ago in our forum.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: gatoraptor on July 01, 2018, 01:38:40 pm
This publication is now available at the Barnes & Nobles in the Atlanta area, one week later than Huntsville.  As with the prior issues in this series, more "book" than "zine".
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: sienar on July 01, 2018, 08:58:47 pm
Personally I'd like to see the Focke Wulf 159 design studies and the late 30s Arado radial fighter you mentioned. The 309 would be nice too, especially details on the radiator installation.

The 159 design studies are a candidate for the next one, thanks to Jemiba's efforts in transcribing and translating the accompanying notes for me. The Arado fighter's still on the shelf. There appears to have been a huge amount of work done on the 309's radiator and I could certainly expand a great deal on that. One of the potential options for the next Luftwaffe: Secret was piston-engined fighters, but I decided against it because the Ta 153 vs Me 209 and Me 409/Me 155/Me 109 H/Me 309 H/Me 209 H/P 1091/BV 155 stories are proving too complex to pull together in the short term. I need more time on those.

Do you know what type of airfoil the 309 used? Lots of books claim it was a laminar section but I'm pretty sure that is not the case.

Have you uncovered anything on the swept wing 309 development?

I must admit to not being particularly au fait with the different NACA airfoils but some drawings I have show NACA 13012, others NACA 15014.5, and tests appear to have been done using variations on NACA 0012. There are references to it having a 'symmetrical airfoil'. Does any of that mean anything to you? There is at least one document I've seen on tests of a 309 model with a 'thin wing' in September 1943 - three months before all work on the 309 apparently ceased.
I've never seen anything on a swept wing development of the 309. However, I wouldn't rule it out. The 309 was in development from mid-1941 to the end of 1943 - plenty of time to try different arrangements. The key characteristics that Messerschmitt hoped to build into its design were a sliding canopy, pressure cabin (it's been suggested that it would have an ejection seat too), wide-track inwards-retracting tricycle undercarriage, retractable radiator, reversible pitch propeller - and the capability to accept much larger engines than the 109 could. Wing, tail and radiator shapes appear to have been fairly fluid, much like those of the Me 209. I have an AVA report on wind tunnel tests of 22 different radiator shapes for the 309 and I've no doubt that there were many more.
Early on, it was intended that it should take the DB 603 A or Jumo 213, but other potential powerplants included the DB 622, DB 627 and DB 628 (an Allied report also suggests the DB 609). The DB 603 G was only brought in towards the end of the development cycle. I have an Allied intelligence report which suggests that Messerschmitt had worked on a version of the 309 with tandem engines, A DB 605 in front of the cockpit and a second behind it, with the extension shaft running under the pilot's seat and a contra-rotating propeller. The way the report is written seems very authoritative but I've seen nothing from Messerschmitt itself to support this idea. The same report mentions the 309 as having a thin aerofoil section, making it difficult to install cannon in the wings.
I've also seen material suggesting that the 309's characteristic tricycle undercarriage was actually abandoned towards the end in favour of a conventional tail-sitter layout.
Again, research on the Me 309 is a work in progress.

Yes, the airfoil info is interesting. Messerschmitt at some point moved over to preferring symmetrical sections, doing quite a bit of work with modified NACA sections having an elliptical nose.

The swept wing 309 was worked on by caudron and there was an expected 20% or so increase in top speed. But I wouldnt be surprised if this was purely a test article for figuring out the low speed handling of swept wings rather than an honest attempt at a swept piston fighter. Its also possible that caudron was lied to and the swept wing work was for a non-309 project.

There is a drawing of an ejection seat for the 309 in Willy Messerschmitt: Pioneer of Aviation Design.

Bulges for wing canons were allegedly test installed in the 109 V-31, being necessary due to the thinness of the wing, but I've never seen photos of it. Testing showed that these bulges actually reduced drag slightly, possibly being the first instance of kuchemann carrots, albeit accidentally.

With all those engine variants they looked at I'm kinda surprised that the 222 wasnt considered.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: Wurger on July 02, 2018, 04:04:32 am
Here is the link:

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4771.msg37651.html#msg37651

Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on July 02, 2018, 01:56:48 pm
Here is the link:

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4771.msg37651.html#msg37651

Ah, you mean this (attached - column on the extreme right)? No I don't have a drawing of that. I do have all five 'entwurf' drawings but Entwurf 1 is 2 x DB 601, Entwurf 2 is 2 x BMW 800, Entwurf 3 is 2 x DB 601 with tail turret, Entwurf 4 is 2 x BMW 800 with tail turret and Entwurf 5 is 2 x As 402.
Interesting that the five 'entwurf' drawings all depict the later Ar 240 cockpit, whereas the seven other drawings (side view, side with wings folded, front, front with wings folded, top, top with wings folded, pair of see-through side views - Kranzhoff's designer seems to have chopped the front section off the lower one and put a box around it for some reason) show the E 310 with the Ar 240 V1 cockpit.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on July 02, 2018, 01:58:50 pm
Quote

With all those engine variants they looked at I'm kinda surprised that the 222 wasnt considered.

Doesn't seem to have been but again I wouldn't rule it out.

Quote
There is a drawing of an ejection seat for the 309 in Willy Messerschmitt: Pioneer of Aviation Design.

And here's (attached) the non-cleaned up version of the Me 309 ejection seat drawing and a second closer-up one - from a large file consisting entirely of different Messerschmitt seat designs bizarrely. I don't know that it was always specified as standard equipment for the 309 though.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: Wurger on July 03, 2018, 05:24:37 am
Quote
Ah, you mean this

Exactly right, that`s the single-engined "multi-purpose" carrier-borne aircraft. I didn`t know about the tail turrets. Can you please publish that or do you intend to do it in a future "Luftwaffe/Marineflieger" bookazine?

What about the 1938 radial-engined fighter? Do you have it? Kosin stated that it would have a 14 cylinder BMW radial (certainly the BMW 139). Proposed speed at 600-650 Km/h.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on July 03, 2018, 11:21:18 am
Quote
Ah, you mean this

Exactly right, that`s the single-engined "multi-purpose" carrier-borne aircraft. I didn`t know about the tail turrets. Can you please publish that or do you intend to do it in a future "Luftwaffe/Marineflieger" bookazine?

What about the 1938 radial-engined fighter? Do you have it? Kosin stated that it would have a 14 cylinder BMW radial (certainly the BMW 139). Proposed speed at 600-650 Km/h.

I do have a quantity of unpublished Arado material that I think people will be interested to see but I can't say exactly what will be in the next bookazine at this stage. Definitely something from Arado. At this stage I can't see myself doing a Luftwaffe/Marineflieger bookazine but who knows? It'd probably be mostly be Blohm & Voss and Dornier projects.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: Wurger on July 03, 2018, 11:32:29 am
Okidoki, Dan  B).
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: steelpillow on July 03, 2018, 12:39:28 pm
a Luftwaffe/Marineflieger bookazine but who knows? It'd probably be mostly be Blohm & Voss and Dornier projects.

Gets my vote!
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: pometablava on July 03, 2018, 01:07:21 pm
My vote
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: Justo Miranda on July 04, 2018, 12:57:46 am
My vote
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: athpilot on July 04, 2018, 02:15:53 am
My vote

Me too! ;D B)
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on July 04, 2018, 08:07:35 am
My vote

Me too! ;D B)

There's certainly a few interesting flying boat/floatplane projects out there which I don't think have been published before. The floatplane versions of the Ar 232 and Fw 189 spring immediately to mind. Anyone ever seen anything much on those elsewhere? The Seefernaufklarers chapter in Luftwaffe: Secret Designs has plenty of 'new' flying boat/floatplane designs in it. Although for me perhaps the most interesting aspect of working on it was how much everybody, especially its own crews, truly hated the BV 138. Even Blohm & Voss must have been heartily sick of it by about 1943.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: steelpillow on July 04, 2018, 09:05:37 am
And they certainly proposed enough upgrades/replacements. I have seen some 13 mentioned on the Internet, of which I have been able to verify nine (from secondary sources):
P 61
P 94
P 108-113 (6 in all)
P 122-125 (4 in all)
And, bizarrely, a landplane version the P 187.
The P 61, 108. 109 and 117 remain unverified, though most if not all are reputed to be listed by Nowarra.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on July 04, 2018, 10:57:20 am
And they certainly proposed enough upgrades/replacements. I have seen some 13 mentioned on the Internet, of which I have been able to verify nine (from secondary sources):
P 61
P 94
P 108-113 (6 in all)
P 122-125 (4 in all)
And, bizarrely, a landplane version the P 187.
The P 61, 108. 109 and 117 remain unverified, though most if not all are reputed to be listed by Nowarra.

The P 187 is the landplane version of the BV 238 - later known as the BV 238 Land, then the BV 250. Sorry, my mistake, the BV 238 Land is the P 161 as you point out below. I've amended this entry after the fact to avoid any confusion. The P 187 is the BV 222 Land. I have the full original BV project list - I thought I'd posted a fragment of it on the forum somewhere, although exactly where now escapes me.

Note: Having now looked up the entries for the projects you mention, the P 13 is original twin-engine Ha 138. The P 61 is the first attempt at a three-engine version, with 3 x DB 601, and the P 94 is what actually became the production Ha 138 with 3 x Jumo 207 A. P 108-113 are indeed attempts to improve the BV 138. P 122-125 appear to be nothing to do with the BV 138. Each had 4 x Jumo 208 and a starting weight ranging from 33,000kg to 41,000kg - quite a way above what the BV 138 airframe was ever likely to be able to handle. The P 117 is a version of the BV 222.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: steelpillow on July 04, 2018, 11:19:11 am
And they certainly proposed enough upgrades/replacements. I have seen some 13 mentioned on the Internet, of which I have been able to verify nine (from secondary sources):
P 61
P 94
P 108-113 (6 in all)
P 122-125 (4 in all)
And, bizarrely, a landplane version the P 187.
The P 61, 108. 109 and 117 remain unverified, though most if not all are reputed to be listed by Nowarra.

The P 187 is the landplane version of the BV 238 - later known as the BV 238 Land, then the BV 250. I have the full original BV project list - I thought I'd posted a fragment of it on the forum somewhere, although exactly where now escapes me.

I have that down as the P 161, again an Internet meme. Thanks for the corrections.

Have to say, I'd kill for a copy of that list. Any chance you can either publish it somewhere or PM me a private copy? In fact, how about a "B&V Special" spinoff issue with the list included?
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on July 04, 2018, 11:48:23 am
And they certainly proposed enough upgrades/replacements. I have seen some 13 mentioned on the Internet, of which I have been able to verify nine (from secondary sources):
P 61
P 94
P 108-113 (6 in all)
P 122-125 (4 in all)
And, bizarrely, a landplane version the P 187.
The P 61, 108. 109 and 117 remain unverified, though most if not all are reputed to be listed by Nowarra.

The P 187 is the landplane version of the BV 238 - later known as the BV 238 Land, then the BV 250. I have the full original BV project list - I thought I'd posted a fragment of it on the forum somewhere, although exactly where now escapes me.

I have that down as the P 161, again an Internet meme. Thanks for the corrections.

Have to say, I'd kill for a copy of that list. Any chance you can either publish it somewhere or PM me a private copy? In fact, how about a "B&V Special" spinoff issue with the list included?

Sorry, my mistake. You're right, the P 161 is the BV 238 Land. The P 187 is the BV 222 Land. I think I said previously that I'd publish the original projects list somewhere - maybe in the next bookazine.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: steelpillow on July 04, 2018, 12:40:37 pm
I think I said previously that I'd publish the original projects list somewhere - maybe in the next bookazine.

 :)
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: sienar on July 04, 2018, 01:28:57 pm
Have you found anything to confirm that the floatplane 109 was a real project?
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on July 04, 2018, 01:36:51 pm
Have you found anything to confirm that the floatplane 109 was a real project?

No - but then I haven't been specifically looking for it. It'd be great if someone did find something on it though!
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: Wurger on July 06, 2018, 04:34:50 am
Dan, the projected Fw189 V7/8 floatplane versions are already abridged in Hans-Peter Dabrowski's "Focke-Wulf Nahaufklärer Fw 189 >Uhu<, pages 192 to 194, 1 origal Fw 3-view, a lateral detailed plan and a nice foto of  a float and the full bird under construction.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on July 06, 2018, 01:52:55 pm
Dan, the projected Fw189 V7/8 floatplane versions are already abridged in Hans-Peter Dabrowski's "Focke-Wulf Nahaufklärer Fw 189 >Huh<, pages 192 to 194, 1 origal Fw 3-view, a lateral detailed plan and a nice foto of  a float and the full bird under construction.

This one?
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: Wurger on July 07, 2018, 06:27:07 am
I'm afraid that's the one B).
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on July 07, 2018, 11:47:14 am
I'm afraid that's the one B).

Well, I guess it's not yet appeared in an English language publication... or has it?
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: elmayerle on July 10, 2018, 10:35:23 pm
This publication is now available at the Barnes & Nobles in the Atlanta area, one week later than Huntsville.  As with the prior issues in this series, more "book" than "zine".
Showed up 'bout the same time in Fort Worth.  Since I had already received and read my copy direct from Morton's, I've been hesitant to buy a second copy; I really should, though, just to encourage them.

7-14 Update:  I did buy one last night and I will be leaving feedback with B&N, apparently a new feature, conveying my displeasure with their magazine supplier only carrying two of Dan's five (I did get the count right, didn't I?) bookazines for Morton's.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: XP67_Moonbat on July 11, 2018, 12:11:43 am
Same for Hell Paso.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: moin1900 on July 24, 2018, 03:43:12 am
About the DVL jet fighter on Page 52-53.
Is there someone who could read / translate the handwritten additions?
Maybe these additions could help to understand the different drawings. Especially the third design looks interesting (swept-forward wing first stage and swept-back second stage).

Maybe Günther Bock was involved?
DVL sketches
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,18201.0.html
Günther Bock
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BCnther_Bock_(Aeronautiker)
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: Pasoleati on July 24, 2018, 05:05:07 am
Why did the crews hate the BV 138?
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: steelpillow on July 24, 2018, 05:33:24 am
Why did the crews hate the BV 138?
80% because its engines were rubbish. It was underpowered and consequently both speed and handling were poor. They also vibrated a lot, giving rise to endless panel rattling and metal fatigue problems. And their reliability was also poor, with various maintenance difficulties adding to the mess. B&V were allowed to change to a different engine at one point but it was little improvement. Other, better engines were proposed, but were in such demand for more important front-line types that the change was refused.
20% because this was B&V's first real warplane and it had a highly innovative structure. Quite a few teething troubles had to be ironed out, and quite a few others never were. The first prototype was so awful it had to be almost completely redesigned. The first batch were barely serviceable and the second not much better. Any further design iteration was again refused.
Most of its operational activities were actually carried out while officially unfit for service. The planes spent most of their lives queueing up for one retrospective modification after another.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: Pasoleati on July 24, 2018, 07:29:02 am
Underpowered yes, but afaik those Jumo 205s worked ok in the Do 18 and BV 222. What was Junkers's response to criticism on the engines? Any, for some reason I don't know a single English source that would go into appropriately indepth detail onthese issues.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: steelpillow on July 24, 2018, 10:06:49 am
The engines on earlier variants were the Jumo 205C, later variants had the 205D. The 205 demanded skilled specialist maintenance and so I suspect Junkers' response would have been, "Train your engineers properly and RTFM!" And as an afterthought, "The installation could have been done better."
One useful source is William Green's "Warplanes of the Third Reich". There are also some booklets on the BV 138 available.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: Pasoleati on July 24, 2018, 11:22:36 am
I have read (years ago) Green's chapter on it. The only single volune devoted to the 138 that I know of is old Heinz Nowarra booklet from Podzun Pallas (German)/Schiffer (English). The text is very superficial in it.

There's also a chapter on it in Eric Brown's original Wings of the Weird and Wonderful. He did not like its handling.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on July 24, 2018, 02:09:38 pm
I have read (years ago) Green's chapter on it. The only single volune devoted to the 138 that I know of is old Heinz Nowarra booklet from Podzun Pallas (German)/Schiffer (English). The text is very superficial in it.

There's also a chapter on it in Eric Brown's original Wings of the Weird and Wonderful. He did not like its handling.

p32-33 of Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich explains. In fact, that whole chapter is based on the August 1943 E-Stelle Travemunde report 'Chronik des See-Fernaufklarers von 1933 bis zum heutigen Tage'. And the report itself is largely devoted to the BV 138's problems and shortcomings in great detail. I had assumed that crews loved their BV 138s. Nowarra says so (p46 of his BV 138 book): "Even in the most difficult of circumstances they [the BV 138] never failed their crews and served faithfully up until the last day of the war."
But the contemporary Travemunde report paints a rather different picture. It says (forgive my translation): "Of course, due to all the shortcomings and their consequences, the crews' confidence in their aircraft sank again and again. The difficult power setting of the engines in the flight is among the other deficiencies. Flight on two engines was criticised and added to this were new demands for a heating and de-icing system for winter use."
Manufacturing defects were blamed for cracks discovered in the wing spars of BV 138 Bs and Cs and the report says crews only "reluctantly" flew their BV 138s, hoping for a new aircraft to replace them.
And the report actually defends the BV 138 against all the criticism coming from the crews (as well as saying that had a proper competitive tendering process been followed, it would probably never have been built). It says: "Despite the fact that it was so much criticised for its appearance and its flaws, it should not be forgotten that the look of the aircraft itself benefited from excellent weapon design and the shortcomings were due to the fact that it was the first aircraft model to go into production at B&V. In a sharp competitive development, this pattern might never have been built.
"Despite being rejected by the crews as a result of its inherent limitations, the BV 138 is used time and time again and has been instrumental in fighting convoys in the North Sea and defending submarines in the Black Sea and is one of the most dependable due to its operating hours template."
I recommend reading the full chapter to get an idea of the many problems encountered during the development of the BV 138. 'Chronik des See-Fernaufklarers von 1933 bis zum heutigen Tage' really is the best account of the BV 138's development I have seen anywhere and if I get around to it I might consider publishing it in full at some point.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: steelpillow on July 25, 2018, 02:04:45 am
Thanks, Dan, I was struggling to remember where I had read all that material.

I doubt there is a more authoritative account than this, compiled from actual period documents. And it's still available in the magazine section of many branches of WH Smith if you check round.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: Pasoleati on July 25, 2018, 04:38:45 am
Thanks Dan! I will be buying this asap! While at it, have you at Morton's considered shrinkwrapping these bookazines to protect them on the sellers' shelves? I was going to buy this one at a local seller, but then noted that only available copy clear signs of wear and tear induced by careless handling by either the staff or browsing customers.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on July 25, 2018, 05:27:10 am
Thanks Dan! I will be buying this asap! While at it, have you at Morton's considered shrinkwrapping these bookazines to protect them on the sellers' shelves? I was going to buy this one at a local seller, but then noted that only available copy clear signs of wear and tear induced by careless handling by either the staff or browsing customers.

Unfortunately, I've no involvement in point of sale. The best option might be to order it direct via the web - then it should be pristine.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: gatoraptor on July 25, 2018, 07:05:23 am
The best option might be to order it direct via the web - then it should be pristine.

.....Unless the postal service mangles it during shipping!
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on July 25, 2018, 08:04:25 am
The best option might be to order it direct via the web - then it should be pristine.

.....Unless the postal service mangles it during shipping!

Always a concern but I've found that more often than not things come through fine.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on July 25, 2018, 08:22:35 am
This publication is now available at the Barnes & Nobles in the Atlanta area, one week later than Huntsville.  As with the prior issues in this series, more "book" than "zine".
Showed up 'bout the same time in Fort Worth.  Since I had already received and read my copy direct from Morton's, I've been hesitant to buy a second copy; I really should, though, just to encourage them.

7-14 Update:  I did buy one last night and I will be leaving feedback with B&N, apparently a new feature, conveying my displeasure with their magazine supplier only carrying two of Dan's five (I did get the count right, didn't I?) bookazines for Morton's.

Sorry, didn't notice the update! There are, or have been, four Luftwaffe bookazines so far (I can only manage about one a year owing the amount of time it takes to research them):

Luftwaffe: Secret Jets of the Third Reich (2015 and sadly long out of print)
Luftwaffe: Secret Bombers of the Third Reich (2016)
Luftwaffe: Secret Wings of the Third Reich (2017)
Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich (2018)

But if we're talking bookazine for Mortons in general, it's those four plus:

Cold War: Sex, Spies and Nuclear Missiles (2013)
Concorde: Supersonic Speedbird - The Full Story (2013, with Bernard Bale. Just reissued as a revised and updated edition with a new cover)
D-Day: Operation Overlord (2014)
Duelling Above the Trenches: Sopwith Aircraft of the Great War (2014)
Aviation Classics 26: Focke-Wulf Fw 190 (2014, Mortons generally counts issues of AC as bookazines)
Spitfires Over Berlin: The Air War in Europe 1945 (2015)
British Dinosaurs (2015, with Chris Wardle and Tony Carter)
Luftwaffe Fighters (2016, with Claes Sundin)
Allied Fighters (2017, with Claes Sundin)
RAF: Secret Jets of Cold War Britain (2017)

And there's a couple more due out later this year. The only actual hardback book I've done is British Secret Projects 5: Britain's Space Shuttle for Crecy.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: steelpillow on July 25, 2018, 08:50:46 am
Is RAF: Secret Jets of Cold War Britain (2017) still in the newsagents? I'd love to get hold of that one.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on July 25, 2018, 11:17:50 am
Is RAF: Secret Jets of Cold War Britain (2017) still in the newsagents? I'd love to get hold of that one.

Should be, although I've no idea of availability at individual outlets.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: steelpillow on August 09, 2018, 07:59:39 am
Is RAF: Secret Jets of Cold War Britain (2017) still in the newsagents? I'd love to get hold of that one.

Should be, although I've no idea of availability at individual outlets.

Can't find it locally. Amazon? Good grief! forty-something quid! Less than one-sixth of that, post-free, from Mortons web site. On its way.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: TsrJoe on August 09, 2018, 09:01:32 pm
WH. Smith newsagents (Glasgow, Sauchiehall St. and Central Station) have copies still avaliable on the shelf
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: steelpillow on August 10, 2018, 01:06:34 am
That must depend on your local WHS. Neither of the two nearest me do.
Title: Re: Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich
Post by: newsdeskdan on August 10, 2018, 01:18:17 am
That must depend on your local WHS. Neither of the two nearest me do.

Hard to believe it's been 10 months now since RAF: Secret Jets came out. Given the timeframe, it's surprising that any WHS stores are still carrying it - they can just return it unsold if they want - but my understanding is, as Joe says, that some still have it in stock. Bookazines seldom remain at WHS longer than a year though.