Secret Projects Forum

Secret Projects => Naval Projects => Topic started by: Triton on November 18, 2010, 11:27:40 am

Title: DCNS SMX-25 SSGT concept
Post by: Triton on November 18, 2010, 11:27:40 am
DCNS SMX-25 concept unveiled at Euronaval 2010.

DCNS press release:

Quote
Remarkable speed and stealth

For this concept ship project, DCNS focused on how to get what is essentially a conventional submarine to a theatre of operations as quickly as possible. Powered by three gas turbines driving three water jets, the SMX-25 submersible is designed to achieve a sustained surface speed of 38 knots.

Despite the fact that the SMX-25 can deploy very quickly, it is essentially a conventional submarine. On reaching its designated patrol area, the SMX-25 will operate like other submarines using the same types of sensors and resources.

In the innovative semi-surfaced configuration, with only the upper portion of the sail above water, the boat will be able to use the same sorts of sensors (including an aircraft surveillance radar) and weapons as a conventional surface combatant (i.e. anti-ship, land-strike and anti-air missiles launched from vertical silos) while maintaining an extremely discrete radar signature.

The SMX-25 will be equipped to deploy combat swimmers and their delivery vehicles, commandos, unmanned underwater vehicles (UUVs) and unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs).

Length overall: 109 m
Max. speed, semi-surfaced: 38 knots
Displacement, surface: 2,850 tonnes
Displacement, submerged: 4,560 tonnes
Speed, submerged: 10 knots
Endurance, patrol: 30 days

Sources:
http://en.dcnsgroup.com/technology-innovation/smx-25/
http://www.dsi-presse.com/?paged=5
http://www.airgroup2000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5985325
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-photos-multimedia/80759-euronaval-2010-a.html
Title: Re: DCNS SMX-25 SSGT concept
Post by: Triton on November 18, 2010, 11:45:53 am
Model and artist's concept of DCNS SMX-25.

Source:
http://noticiarionaval.blogspot.com/2010/10/smx-25-dcns-devoile-son-concept-de-sous.html
Title: Re: DCNS SMX-25 SSGT concept
Post by: Triton on November 18, 2010, 12:10:02 pm
Artist's impression of DCNS SMX-25.

Source:
http://www.usinenouvelle.com/article/dcns-presente-un-nouveau-concept-ship-sous-marin-au-salon-euronaval.N140811?xtor=RSS-215
Title: Re: DCNS SMX-25 SSGT concept
Post by: Triton on November 18, 2010, 12:21:20 pm
Artist's impression of DCNS SMX-25.

Source:
http://www.usinenouvelle.com/article/dcns-presente-un-nouveau-concept-ship-sous-marin-au-salon-euronaval.N140811?xtor=RSS-215
Title: Re: DCNS SMX-25 SSGT concept
Post by: royabulgaf on November 18, 2010, 03:03:07 pm
A submersible in this league would require an extraordinary gentleman to captain it. 

But seriously, folks.  This submarine seems to answering questions that no one has asked since Admiral Doenitz was arrested.  Who is to use this submarine, and against what enemy?   Naval combat that requires submarines would presumably be against high tech enemies.  Most nations that would need subs to travel at high speeds long distances to the war zone have SSNs.  For a country that needs subs for some offshore defense (Brazil or Taiwan, for instance) some diesel-electric variant is perfectly adequate.
Title: Re: DCNS SMX-25 SSGT concept
Post by: Demon Lord Razgriz on November 18, 2010, 04:04:10 pm
A submersible in this league would require an extraordinary gentleman to captain it. 

But seriously, folks.  This submarine seems to answering questions that no one has asked since Admiral Doenitz was arrested.  Who is to use this submarine, and against what enemy?   Naval combat that requires submarines would presumably be against high tech enemies.  Most nations that would need subs to travel at high speeds long distances to the war zone have SSNs.  For a country that needs subs for some offshore defense (Brazil or Taiwan, for instance) some diesel-electric variant is perfectly adequate.

I think this is a result of the rise & proliferation of highly accurate AShMs. To counter this, you have 3 different ways to deal with them.

1: Put more CIWS & point defense missiles on ships.
2: Make the ship stealthy
3: Make the ship have a ultra low profile

Going with option 1 means a heavier, and likely larger ship. 2 means high unit costs. 3 limits its capabilities greatly and AFAIK hasn't been used. SMX-25 takes option 3 and makes it viable. Depending on how fast it can dive, it can dive underwater when an AShM targeting it is detected.
Title: Re: DCNS SMX-25 SSGT concept
Post by: RanulfC on November 19, 2010, 07:10:05 am
And, lets just face the facts here shall we? Blue-Submarine #6 and the one from Full Metal Panic! are just COOL looking!

 ;D

Randy
Title: Re: DCNS SMX-25 SSGT concept
Post by: TomS on November 19, 2010, 11:08:07 am
This looks a lot like a return to WW1/2 "submersible" rather than "submarine" operations -- spend most of the time on the surface, only diving for maximum stealth when threatened or attacking.  I wonder if the VLS tubes would be usable submerged and surfaced --  current ones are not, I believe.
Title: Re: DCNS SMX-25 SSGT concept
Post by: fightingirish on November 20, 2010, 05:05:59 am
 ;D At the euronaval the Direction des Constructions Navales Services (DCNS) always unveiles futuristic submarine concepts. In 2008 they unvieled the DCNS SMX-24 "Plug-and-Fight" submarine (http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,7748.0.html).
The three gas turbines driving three water jets will power it over seas, The pods under water.
I agree with TomS, this concept is a return to WWII submersible concepts like the "Deutsches Versuchs-Halb-Unterseeboot VS 5" or  "Engelmann-Boot" from 1940's.
Edit: See this topic (http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4142.0) to compare.
Source: Harald Fock - Marine-Kleinkampfmittel (Superb book, I have got it since years! :))


Title: Re: DCNS SMX-25 SSGT concept
Post by: Grey Havoc on November 20, 2010, 06:52:04 am
I wonder if the torpedo tubes on this design are 'canned', i.e. of the one shot variety?
Title: Re: DCNS SMX-25 SSGT concept
Post by: ouroboros on November 20, 2010, 05:56:17 pm
Only a few steps away from a semi-submersible arsenal ship design. Using the sea itself as protection against air and surface attacks is a good trick though, as it protects from almost everything that isn't a terminal diving trajectory.

Though slapping a laser or railgun on this would instantly remind people of the Surcouf...
Title: Re: DCNS SMX-25 SSGT concept
Post by: ouroboros on November 20, 2010, 06:32:18 pm
And a few other odds and ends that fall under the similar design category...
Soviet Project 1231 Dolphin (1959-1964)
Title: Re: DCNS SMX-25 SSGT concept
Post by: MihoshiK on November 23, 2010, 11:57:49 am
Seems to me this suffers from exactly the same problems as the BMT SSGT: anyone can see where you are and where you are going in high speed transit. It's not going to be a surprise where you patrol, and once on station you're not better than any other conventional submarine.
Title: Re: DCNS SMX-25 SSGT concept
Post by: Grey Havoc on May 24, 2011, 06:02:27 am
Das Boot? Das Running Shoe, More Like

Posted by Bill Sweetman at 5/24/2011 6:55 AM CDT

 
French shipbuilder DCNS raised eyebrows at last October's Euronaval show with its extraordinary SMX-25 concept for a submarine like no contemporary design - sharp-prowed, with a big but low sail and a jet-like stern. At the IMDEX show in Singapore last week, DCNS gave a few more details of the design.

It doesn't look like other submarines because it's designed for a different job - primarily, anti-surface warfare, rather than anti-submarine warfare. That changes everything. The submarine needs mobility to catch and stay up with surface ships. It will be optimized for survival against active, not passive sonar. It needs a heavy missile load, ready to fire, because surface ships travel in groups and multiple shots can overwhelm the defenses.

Non-nuclear submarines can't run fast for long:  batteries don't store enough energy, their circular-section hulls aren't efficient on the surface, and wave effects limit snorkeling speed to 11 knots or so. SMX-25 is therefore designed for high speed on the surface, with a wave-piercing hull and retractable air inlets for three 16 MW gas turbines driving waterjets. Top speed is 38 knots and range at 14-20 knots is 8000 nm.

In action, SMX-25 can ballast to a semi-submerged position with the sail above the surface. It can still run on turbines, the sail is a small visual or radar target, and all 16 missile tubes are ready to fire. Finally, the boat can submerge completely and run on diesel (via a snorkel) or batteries, driving retractable motor-propeller units.

It's a big submarine for a non-nuke, 360 feet long with a surface displacement of 2850 tonnes and 5460 tonnes submerged. under the water, the hull is faceted rather than rounded - like a stealthy aircraft, faceting weakens back-scattered echo from an active sonar.

DCNS argues that the SMX-25 could be remarkably survivable. It is a small target for surface attack - and if engaged by a missile it can dive. Its speed makes it a tough target for a torpedo, and it has sensors above and below the water. And although it looks like something out of Thunderbirds, it is designed entirely around existing technology.

If the SMX-25 has a predecessor in history, it's one that DCNS would rather people forgot about.

In World War 1, the Royal Navy ordered K-Class submarines, powered by steam turbines on the surface, in search of a submarine that could keep up with the battle fleet. The Ks were problematic and unlucky:  six of the 18 built were lost to accidents, with one officer expressing the view that they had "too many damn holes."


Tags: ar99,  dcns,  smx-25,  submarine

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Title: Re: DCNS SMX-25 SSGT concept
Post by: Nik on May 25, 2011, 06:28:21 am
It's another 'submarine cruiser'...
 :(
As the previous comment said, 'Too Many Holes'...
Title: Re: DCNS SMX-25 SSGT concept
Post by: Charles Gray on May 30, 2011, 04:42:42 pm
It's another 'submarine cruiser'...
 :(
As the previous comment said, 'Too Many Holes'...

not entirely-- the concept allows a ship to avoid conventional surface to surface weapons, and complicates any attacking force's job.  I don't see this as the possession of powers like hte US that can pretty much assure air dominance, but second and third tier powers that may not be able to trust in their control of the air.   
As for the speed, the speed would complicate the ability of any enemy to determine where the ship was from sightings. For example, if Taiwan had a few, they could loiter well beyond the likely range of Chinese forces, and still be in a position to dash back in. 
Title: Re: DCNS SMX-25 SSGT concept
Post by: amsci99 on June 11, 2011, 11:43:29 pm
Seems like a possible contender for a capable USV (Unmanned Surface Vehicle) for littoral warfare if it could be scaled down.
Title: Re: DCNS SMX-25 SSGT concept
Post by: eshelon on March 21, 2013, 11:54:28 am
Erbil Serter submersible frigate concept:
(https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.servimg.com%2Fu%2Ff23%2F14%2F53%2F38%2F70%2Fdesign10.jpg&hash=c62dcc6fe9929f48d01ae2b1c46cde5b)
source: Jane's IDR quarterly report 1997