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Other Resources => Bookshelf & Marketplace => Topic started by: Schneiderman on February 02, 2016, 09:38:45 am

Title: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Schneiderman on February 02, 2016, 09:38:45 am
Now at the printers and available 2nd May 2016

http://www.thehistorypress.co.uk/publication/Beyond-the-Spitfire/9780750965156/

Chapter 1.  Supermarine – origin and the early years
      Noel Pemberton Billing
      Hubert Scott-Paine
      Supermarine Aviation Works Ltd
      Reginald Mitchell arrives
      The Supermarine Baby
Chapter 2.  1919 - Supermarine meets the challenge of peace
      Securing the business
      Staff changes
The first Channels
      Racing
      Speculative designs
Chapter 3.  Mitchell’s first flying boats
      Olympia - new variations on old themes
Selling the Channel
      Commercial Amphibian competition
Military designs
      Racing again
Chapter 4.  Commercial aircraft and airlines
      Diversification and expansion
      British Marine Air Navigation
Chapter 5.  Production at last
      The struggle to survive
      Seagulls
Chapter 6.  More racing and Scott-Paine departs
      Defending the Schneider Trophy
      James Bird takes over
Chapter 7.  The move to big ‘boats
      Multi-engine flying boats
      The Southampton
      Nanok
Chapter 8.  Expanding the design team, light aircraft and more amphibians
      The Design Department
      Mitchell’s first land aeroplane
      The next generation of amphibians
Chapter 9. Racing: a new direction and a dead end
      Mitchell’s first monoplane
Chapter 10. Competition and the introduction of fabrication in metal
      The rise of the flying boats
      The metallurgy department
Chapter 11.  A move away from marine aircraft
      Mitchell’s first true fighter
Chapter 12.  Schneider Trophy racers; a triumph and a distraction
      Success in Venice
Chapter 13.  1927 – New ideas
      Supermarine relaunched
      Dornier
      The big ‘boat designs
      Mitchell joins the board
Chapter 14.  Vickers
      Takeover
      Reorganisation
      New recruits
Chapter 15.  Hard Times
      Schneider success and the air speed record
      Southampton X and the Air Yacht
      Small civil flying boats
Chapter 16.  The saga of the six-engined flying boats
      Dornier again
      Concepts for very large flying boats
      The Giant awakes
      The Giant’s demise
Chapter 17.  The Type 178 projects
      Random ideas, embryo projects, none of the above
Chapter 18.  Transition
      Seeking overseas customers
      Torpedo Bomber
      Civil flying boats
      Australian amphibian
      Canadian Monoplane
      The final Schneider success and another air speed record
Chapter 19.  Replacing the Southampton
      Scapa
      Stranraer
Chapter 20.  Small Amphibians & Miscellaneous projects
      Small Amphibians
      Seagull V
      Sea Otter
      Transports
      Coastal patrol
      Un-numbered projects
Chapter 21.  Fighters
      Late 1920’s biplane fighters
      F.7/30 and the quest for innovation
      Type 300
      Designing the Spitfire
      On elliptical wings
      The Spitfire in context
      Two-seat fighters
      Cannon fighters
Chapter 22.  Competition and the four-engined flying boats
      Coastal Patrol
      Imperial Airways
      Sikorsky
Mitchell’s views on air transport
Flying Boats for Imperial Airways
      Short’s monoplane flying boats
      Trans-Atlantic flying boats
Chapter 23.  More twin-engined flying boats
      Replacing the Stranraer
      High-speed monoplane flying boats
Chapter 24.  Bombers
      Bombers in the 1920s
      Single engine bombers for the 1930s
      B.1/35 Twin Engined Heavy Bomber
      B.12/36 Four Engine Heavy Bomber
Chapter 25.  Supermarine after Mitchell
      Turmoil and uncertainty in the Works
Pre-war projects
Chapter 26.  RJ, the man and the rise of a legend
      The legend
      R.J.Mitchell; the man
      Genius

Appendix 1.   Orphan designs
Appendix 2.   The Spitfire’s skewed elliptical wing and notes on NACA aerofoils
Appendix 3.   The Design Department
Appendix 4.   Supermarine Project list and index
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: GTX on February 02, 2016, 10:01:44 am
Looks very interesting.
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: pometablava on February 02, 2016, 10:04:43 am
Absolutely awesome!!!! Many thanks sir!
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Hood on February 03, 2016, 06:20:28 am
Looks like a very interesting book. I need to make another space ready on the bookshelf I think.
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: lark on February 05, 2016, 05:10:45 am
Striking cover.. interesting contents... one for the collection !

P.S. any idea about the index..?
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Schneiderman on February 05, 2016, 09:28:25 am
Sorry about the formatting but this should give you an idea about content. Every project/aircraft is illustrated with a 3-view redrawn from the original Supermarine blueprints

Appendix 4 Supermarine Project List and Index

(********See cleaned-up table in the next post***********Thanks Paul)
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: PaulMM (Overscan) on February 05, 2016, 10:33:34 am
Converted using http://theenemy.dk/table/

Appendix 4 Supermarine Project List and Index
YearProject  Chapter
1917BabyN59, 60, 611
1919Single Seat Flying Boat, Type A2
2-engined, 3-seater flying boat, Type B2
Channel, Type CMod. AD Flying Boat1
3-engined triplane flying boat, ‘Dolphin’ Type D2
Sea LionEx Baby N612
‘Shark’ triplane flying boat2
1920Single seat flying boat3
Sea KingEx Baby N603
Channel II, 4-seater3
Amphibian (Commercial Amphibian)3
Single seat scout and bomber3
Single seat ship’s flying boat3
Amphibian flying boat for ship work3
Seal Mk II3
1921Fleet gunnery spotting amphibian3
Triplane torpedo carrier flying boat3
Swan 7-seater commercial amphibian flying boat4
Sea King IIEx Sea King3
Single seat fighter flying boat for ship use3
7-seater commercial flying boat4
Commercial amphibian flying boat for Instone4
School amphibian flying boat3
Seagull amphibian flying boatSeagull II & III5
Scylla flying boat torpedo carrierHull only3
19228-seat commercial amphibian4
Amphibian flying boat, school machineMod. Channel-
Bomber amphibian flying boat5
Twin-engined bomber amphibian5
4 seat commercial amphibian flying boat4
Twin-engined commercial flying boatEarly Swan-
Sea Lion IIEx Sea King II3
Swan twin-engined civil amphibian flying boat4
Sea Eagle4
Amphibian flying boat for long distance work‘Round the World’4
3-seat amphibian flying boat4
1923Amphibian flying boat service bomber type5
3-engined flying boat to AM spec 9/237
Sheldrake amphibian flying boat service bomber type5
Sea Lion IIIEx Sea Lion II6
Sea Urchin high performance flying boat6
Commercial and general service amphibian flying boatCivil Sheldrake5
1924Scarab amphibian flying boat service bomber5
Twin engine flying boat converted to armed reconnaissanceBased on Swan7
Amphibian flying boat fleet spotter2 designs8
Service type twin engine flying boat7
Sparrow two-seater aeroplanebiplane8
Southampton7
Twin engine amphibian flying boat2 designs8
1925Single-seater high performance seaplane9
Shark twin-engine flying boat7
Swan MkII twin-engine amphibian flying boat7
Condor light bomber amphibian8
Southampton II10
Southampton twin engine flying boat for civil purposes7
1926Seamew8
S4 seaplane9
Southampton development 3-engined flying boat3 designs7
Solent/Nanok FBVII torpedo bomber7
S5 seaplane12
Sparrow II two-seater aeroplanemonoplane8
Twin-engine flying boat for civil purposesCivil Seamew8
Solent 3-engined flying boat for civil purposes-
Single seat fleet fighter to AM spec. 21/263 designs11
19273-engined flying boat to AM spec 4/27biplane13
3-engined flying boat to AM spec 4/27 & air yachtmonoplane13
1928S6 seaplane15
Flying boat 6 Napier XI engines6 designs16
Seamew – single Napier Lion or Bristol Jupiter engine8
3-engine monoplane Air Yacht15
3-engine monoplane flying boatApp 1
Type 171 Southampton Mark X15
Type 171 civil Southampton Mark X15
1929Six engined flying boat to AM spec.R.6/2816
Type 179 Six engined flying boat to AM spec. 20/28 Contract cancelled16
Type 178 00 Sea Hawk 3 engined civil flying boat15
Type 180 4 engined civil flying boat18
1930Twin engine flying boat – Hispano Suiza engines3 designs18
Type 178 00 Sea Hawk 3 engined amphibian flying boat17
Twin engined fleet spotter to AM spec. 9/3018
Type 178 00 3-engined civil amphibian flying boat17
1931Type 178 01 Civil mail carrier17
Type 178 02 Single engined bomber & reconnaissance amphibian17
Type 181 Amphibian flying boat for the RAAF & civil15
4 engined civil amphibianApp 1
4 engined monoplane flying boatApp 1
Type 178 03 Twin-engined air mail boat17
Type 182 General purpose commercial high-wing monoplane18
Type 183 General purpose commercial low-wing monoplaneNo information-
Type 184 Southampton II (R-R Kestrels and metal wings)N25310
Type 185 Southampton X (mod. with Bristol Jupiters)15
Type 186 S6a (refurbished S6 with new floats)18
Type 187 S6b18
Type 188 Southampton X modified with cockpit canopy15
Type 189 Southampton II modified with Bristol JupitersModified N21810
Type 190 Southampton II export versions; Turkey etc-
Type 178 04 Twin engine Southampton flying boat19
Type 178 05 Twin engine flying boat19
Type 178 06 Sea HawkSouthampton Mk X-
Type 178 07 Southampton IV19
Type 178 08 Proposal to reduce landing speedS6b18
Type 178 09 High performance day bomber24
Type 178 10 Single seat day and night fighter (biplane and monoplane)21
1932Type 178 11 3-engined monoplane flying boatMilitary Air Yacht-
Type 178 12 Single seat biplane day and night fighterMod. Type 178 1021
Type 178 14 Single seat monoplane day and night fighterMod. Type 178 1021
Type 221 Southampton IVScapa prototype19
Type 222 Floats for Vickers Vildebeest-
Type 223 Seagull V single engine amphibian flying boatPrototype N220
Type 224 Single seat monoplane day and night to AM spec. F.7/3021
Type 225 Single engine civil amphibian flying boatCivil Seagull V20
Type 226 ScapaProduction19
Type 227 Southampton V to AM spec. R.24/3119
Type 228 Seagull VProduction20
Type 229 Scapa with experimental stainless steel wing spars-
Type 230 Southampton V/StranraerPrototype19
Type 231 Twin engine bomber transport to AM spec. C.26/31-
Type 232 Four engine boat seaplane to AM spec. R.2/3322
Type 233 Southampton II for Turkey, Hispano-Suiza 12Nbr engines-
1933Type 234 Southampton II for Turkey, Hispano-Suiza 12Nbr engines-
Type 235 Scapa with Napier Culverin diesel engines19
Type 236 WalrusProduction20
1934Type 237 Stranraer (and projected civil adaptation)Production19
Type 238 Biplane boat seaplane to AM spec. R.2/3322
Type 239 Four engine boat seaplane to AM spec. R.2/3322
Type 240 Twin engine coastal reconnaissance landplane-
Type 300 F.7/30 developmentProjects & Spitfire I21
Type 301 Floats for Vickers Vincent-
Type 302 Four engine flying boat for Imperial Airways22
Type 303 R.24/31 Scapa development4 designs23
1935Type 304 Stranraer development – Canadian Vickers production-
Heavy bomber landplane to AM spec. B.1/3524
Type 305 Two seater day and night fighter AM spec. F.9/3521
Type 306 Flying Boat for Imperial Airways transatlantic passenger service22
Type 307 Seagull V – Pegasus VI-
Type 308 Long range flying boat to AM spec. R.12/3523
Type 309 Sea Otter20
Type 310 Long range flying boat23
1936Type 311No information-
Type 312 Single seat day and night fighter to AM spec. F.37/3521
Type 313 Single seat day and night fighter to AM spec. F.37/35-
Type 314 High performance flying boat to AM spec. R.1/3623
Type 315 Walrus for Argentina-
1937Type 316 Heavy Bomber to AM spec. B.12/3624
Type 317 Heavy Bomber to AM spec. B.12/36 – Hercules enginesTwo prototypes24
Type 318 Heavy Bomber to AM spec. B.12/36 – Merlin engines24
Type 319 2 seat fighter25
Type 320 Walrus for Turkey-
1938Type 321 Mark IV gun turret24
Type 322 Aircraft to AM spec. S.24/37-
Type 323 Speed Spitfire21, 25
Type 324 Fighter to AM spec. F.18/3725
Type 325 Fighter to AM spec. F.18/3725
Type 326 Walrus development  - Pegasus VI-
Type 327 High speed single seat cannon gun fighter25
1939Type 328 Flying boat to AM spec. R.5/3925
Type 329 Spitfire Mk II
Type 330 Spitfire Mk III
Type 331 Spitfire Mk V
Type 332 Spitfire FN gun (for Estonia)
Type 333 Two seat fleet fighter to AM spec. N.8/3925
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: hesham on February 05, 2016, 12:11:23 pm
Hi,

311 was a Supermarine designation for Spitfire F37/34 with Merlin E engine,only a project.

http://www.k5054.com/variants.html
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Schneiderman on February 05, 2016, 12:46:36 pm
Possibly, the date would be about right but no drawings seem to exist to confirm this (presumably if it was a simple upgrade of the Spitfire it would only have involved minor changes and any drawings would be unlikely to have been retained). As it is followed by the type 312, which is not a simple Spitfire variant and possibly based on an earlier version of the Type 300, it leaves a few questions in my mind so I have chosen to leave this as unknown
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: lark on February 05, 2016, 02:39:03 pm
Impressive list..... thanks!
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: covert_shores on February 06, 2016, 03:43:42 am
Impressive cover. Love the quality artwork
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Schneiderman on February 06, 2016, 05:37:17 am
Impressive cover. Love the quality artwork

Front and back cover, plus some further colour illustrations, courtesy of Matt Painter http://www.matt-painter.co.uk/
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Schneiderman on February 06, 2016, 10:02:38 am
Back cover
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: hesham on February 07, 2016, 04:52:38 am
Possibly, the date would be about right but no drawings seem to exist to confirm this (presumably if it was a simple upgrade of the Spitfire it would only have involved minor changes and any drawings would be unlikely to have been retained). As it is followed by the type 312, which is not a simple Spitfire variant and possibly based on an earlier version of the Type 300, it leaves a few questions in my mind so I have chosen to leave this as unknown

But Mr. Tony Buttler confirmed on this ?.
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Schneiderman on February 07, 2016, 07:35:33 am
However, as you can see, that list is contradictory. Type 300 covers the various project designs leading to the Spitfire, the prototype and the production of the Mk1. F.37/34 was written to support the order for the prototype so clearly Type 311 has to have been something different.
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Maveric on February 08, 2016, 01:38:48 pm
Can you tell me the designation of the airplane back cover? Thanks
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Schneiderman on February 08, 2016, 01:47:42 pm
Can you tell me the designation of the airplane back cover? Thanks
Certainly! It is one of a number of preliminary concepts for a large, six-engine flying boat to specification R.6/28.  It seems that Supermarine, and probably most other companies, played with a variety of ideas before selecting the best and proceeding with detailed design. Only then was it designated an official project number/name
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Maveric on February 08, 2016, 01:54:28 pm
Thanks for quick answer ;)
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: JFC Fuller on February 08, 2016, 04:22:01 pm
This looks amazing, great job Schneiderman!
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Alcides on February 16, 2016, 03:55:27 am
You know Schneiderman this isn't good. As a lot of guys here I started this with the luft46 stuff. I was happy to buy several books on German projects, later because this forum I added Japanese and American books. Of course with a lot of explanations to my wife.
You, yes YOU make me add the Schneider Trophy book and now this .... I've to prepare anothe fight for this book.

Very interesting by the Way  ;)
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Schneiderman on February 16, 2016, 04:15:53 am
 :D
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: cluttonfred on February 16, 2016, 09:24:05 am
I just ordered my copy....oddly for less in dollars from the U.S. Amazon site than the price in pounds on the UK Amazon site!
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Schneiderman on February 16, 2016, 10:59:26 am
Maybe it doesn't travel well  ;)
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Alcides on February 16, 2016, 08:58:12 pm
I just ordered my copy....oddly for less in dollars from the U.S. Amazon site than the price in pounds on the UK Amazon site!

I'm live in Argentina and I always end ordering on bookdepository. Is cheaper than Amazon US + shipping.
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Alcides on February 16, 2016, 09:06:08 pm
I know the enginiering solutions determine in same way all the planes looks similar but I love the one on the back cover. Looks so "dieselpunk".,
I'd like to see more designs like this to be real.
Just to see it on more detail is going to be great.

Scheiderman I imagine this is a 3d model.

Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Schneiderman on February 16, 2016, 11:07:59 pm
Scheiderman I imagine this is a 3d model.

Yes it is, one built by Matt Painter. The colour section of the book includes several 3D renders, some by myself and other by Matt (see the link in post #11 to see examples of his work for clients)
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Nick Sumner on February 17, 2016, 05:24:02 am
Really looking forward to this volume! Schneider Trophy Seaplanes and Flying Boats set a benchmark for quality in all departments and I'm sure this next effort will be just as good. Please let us know when it is released.
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Schneiderman on February 17, 2016, 09:27:11 am
Thanks! Glad you liked it.
Personally I think this one is better; different publishing style but better. Still scheduled to be released on 2nd May but I'll put a post here if it changes.
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Alcides on February 17, 2016, 12:50:07 pm
Scheiderman I imagine this is a 3d model.

Yes it is, one built by Matt Painter. The colour section of the book includes several 3D renders, some by myself and other by Matt (see the link in post #11 to see examples of his work for clients)

Nice works from Matt but not planes  :(
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Schneiderman on February 17, 2016, 01:11:18 pm
True, his illustrations for my book was the first time he had tackled aircraft apart from some work he did for the group building a replica Westland Whirlwind (fighter not helicopter)
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Loren on March 12, 2016, 07:03:26 pm
Wow!! Thank you - my order is in and I eagerly await it's arrival
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Schneiderman on May 04, 2016, 01:11:46 pm
Hi all,
Book left the publishers today and should be available from UK booksellers within days.
Cheers
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: lark on May 05, 2016, 11:56:34 am
Ordered the book a few weeks ago... eagerly lookin' forward   :D
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: elmayerle on May 05, 2016, 05:46:38 pm
On order from Amazon here in the US.  They tell me it's arriving in their warehouse in the US in the early part of October.
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Alcides on May 05, 2016, 06:06:03 pm
Hi all,
Book left the publishers today and should be available from UK booksellers within days.
Cheers

Great!!!  Nice picture!!!

Update: bookdepository tell me my order is on the way!!!   :) :) :)
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: CJGibson on May 11, 2016, 11:02:27 am
My copy arrived today.

Not my usual fare, as you might imagine, but my interest in flying boats prompted my purchase.

I've just had a quick flick through it and it certainly looks good, with Matt Painter's artwork very impressive.

Nice job, Ralph.

Chris
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Schneiderman on May 11, 2016, 01:03:13 pm
Thanks Chris, I hope you find something of interest in it.
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: lark on May 20, 2016, 10:59:20 am
Book arrived.During the 'browsing phase' a found already a few gems.
Use the weekend to work my way in it.
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Schneiderman on May 21, 2016, 07:41:19 am
Have a good weekend!
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: lark on May 22, 2016, 12:31:07 pm
I'm on 2/3 of the book.
You not give us just one book but three in one... ! 
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: JFC Fuller on May 22, 2016, 02:08:25 pm
I have also been reading this over the weekend, overall its an excellent effort rich detail. It's a really great contribution to a topic about which I knew little. It should be of special interest to anyone wishing to know more about interwar British aviation design.

Well done and thank you Ralph/Schneiderman!
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Alcides on May 22, 2016, 05:35:54 pm
The book arrived a couple of days ago, I'm reading it.

Maybe I'm missing something but the 3d view for the project 313 isn't in the book?
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Schneiderman on May 22, 2016, 11:19:28 pm
Maybe I'm missing something but the 3d view for the project 313 isn't in the book?
Yes its there. CGI at the end of the colour section, 3-view drawings on page 172.
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Schneiderman on June 11, 2016, 05:43:45 am
Father's Day is fast approaching so perhaps a copy of my book would make a good gift for your grey-haired old Dad, or get your kids to buy one for you  ;) :D

Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Maveric on June 14, 2016, 10:06:45 am
Is this the 313?
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Schneiderman on June 14, 2016, 12:20:11 pm
No it is a concept for a heavy bomber to spec. B.1/35 that was abandoned in favour of Vickers' Warwick.  Some of the ideas were carried forward for the Type 316 bomber to spec. B12/36.
This is the Type 313
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: lark on June 14, 2016, 02:23:37 pm
Finnished the book at last...read some chapters two times :-)

The book is very well produced , hardbound with color cover.

This is the best I ever have seen about the Supermarine early years. As told before ,the book have's three storys in
one cover. There is the detailed history of Supermarine from the early years upto the late 1939's
interwoven with the story of Reginald Mitchell and his designoffice , illustrated with drawings
and photo's of practical all the aircraft designed and constructed in the mentioned period. 

The book is not  an easy reader , but the 'work' is made confortable by the many brief chapters and subchapters.

Three views are plenty, often with additional sideviews of a basic type. There is a color section in the middle of the book
with excellent illustrations , a complete typelist at the end of the book, a ref. page and complete index.

This book is a goldmine for the flyingboat enthusiast, a must read for the historian and a worthwile addition for everyone's
aviationbook library.

My only minor critcism is that some of the 3-views are printed on a to small scale, but this can not be blamed to the author.
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Schneiderman on June 14, 2016, 11:33:32 pm
Many thanks for your kind words.
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: lark on June 15, 2016, 01:43:40 pm
The pleasure was all mine..

Something about Folland projects in the pipeline ?
The series of articles in the Aviation Historian was a (very) good start !
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Schneiderman on June 15, 2016, 02:13:47 pm
Unfortunately I don't have sufficient new material to justify writing a whole book about Folland, which is why I wrote what I had as the articles for The Avation Historian. I think that Derek James' books Gloster aircraft since 1917 and Fighter Master Folland and the Gladiator tells much of the story of his time with Gloster and I know that another author is working on a book about his early career. Spirit of Hamble: Folland Aircraft, also by Derek James, is not too bad although Folland was no longer designing aircraft at that point.
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: CJGibson on June 15, 2016, 10:06:52 pm
"Unfortunately I don't have sufficient new material to justify writing a whole book"

That never stopped some folk.

Chris
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: PaulMM (Overscan) on June 15, 2016, 11:26:13 pm
"Unfortunately I don't have sufficient new material to justify writing a whole book"

That never stopped some folk.

Chris

Many folk!
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Schneiderman on June 16, 2016, 02:17:20 am
That never stopped some folk.

Chris

Yes indeed  ;)
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: lark on June 16, 2016, 05:43:29 am
Thanks for the information ,
I have the Putnam and 'The Spirit of.. ' on my booshelves.
So, the search for 'Fightermaster ..'  is open . In the mean time
it's waiting for ' the other author' :-)
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: newsdeskdan on June 16, 2016, 08:12:42 am
Unfortunately I don't have sufficient new material to justify writing a whole book about Folland, which is why I wrote what I had as the articles for The Avation Historian. I think that Derek James' books Gloster aircraft since 1917 and Fighter Master Folland and the Gladiator tells much of the story of his time with Gloster and I know that another author is working on a book about his early career. Spirit of Hamble: Folland Aircraft, also by Derek James, is not too bad although Folland was no longer designing aircraft at that point.

I have career CVs for the nine senior Folland designers circa 1943 if that'd be of any interest to you? They're part of a government investigation into/assessment of the company at that time.
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Schneiderman on June 16, 2016, 09:12:30 am
In the mean time
it's waiting for ' the other author' :-)
I can't give the name unfortunately but he is a well-respected author with several books to his credit
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Schneiderman on June 16, 2016, 09:15:57 am
I have career CVs for the nine senior Folland designers circa 1943 if that'd be of any interest to you? They're part of a government investigation into/assessment of the company at that time.

Thanks, that could be useful. Is it just words or are there illustrations of past work?
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: PaulMM (Overscan) on June 16, 2016, 12:53:11 pm
No, that looks pretty interesting to me. Never forget that companies don't design and build aeroplanes, people do.
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Schneiderman on June 16, 2016, 01:18:53 pm
Yes, may be some interesting info. there. Already I see that Embley stayed at Supermarine longer than I had assumed
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: hesham on June 16, 2016, 02:55:15 pm
You made my day,thank you my dear Dan.
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Schneiderman on June 16, 2016, 11:09:40 pm
Thank you for that, its always interesting to track the movements of the second tier of aircraft designers through the industry, spreading expertise and ideas.
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: newsdeskdan on June 17, 2016, 12:07:08 am
I thought it was interesting, given what happened later, how many of them had previously worked for Westland. The rest of the investigation into Folland reveals a company that's punching well above it's weight. In fact, the firm is in a fairly sorry state by the end of 1942.
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Schneiderman on June 17, 2016, 12:56:03 am
That is something to note. When British Marine Aircraft collapsed Westland were initially in the frame to buy them out before it was refinanced and Folland came on board, the company then being renamed as Folland Aircraft. Perhaps some of that early interest inspired a few design staff to leave, working under Petter not always being a great deal of fun, apparently.
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: hesham on June 17, 2016, 06:04:30 am
My dear Dan,

for Kay company,there was Kay 32/1 and 33/1,the first time to hear about 33/5 ,what
was it ?.
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Hood on June 17, 2016, 06:20:24 am
Those CVs are indeed very interesting and potentially quite useful.
I don't know how much research has been done into movement of people throughout the industry, it seems a few trends have been spotted from these few samples and it would be interesting if we were able to get a wider picture. It could potentially be quite useful, for as Overscan says, the people were behind the developments of the industry and its products. 
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: newsdeskdan on June 17, 2016, 08:42:04 am
My dear Dan,

for Kay company,there was Kay 32/1 and 33/1,the first time to hear about 33/5 ,what
was it ?.

Sorry Hesham, I've done no research on Kay since my efforts have been directed elsewhere. Even with the Folland material, I was only really interested in what it could tell me about English Electric (not much, as it turns out).
Among all the oodles of material about F.6/42, comparisons of the Folland type with the other competitors, projected performance charts, spec lists, assessments etc. I noticed these CVs and thought they represented a snapshot of Folland at that time from which other details could perhaps be extrapolated. Earlier, Schneiderman said: "Unfortunately I don't have sufficient new material to justify writing a whole book about Folland". My goal here was to put forward new material that might possibly justify, if not writing a whole book about Folland, then perhaps at least thinking about writing one. What I have is presently of no use to me.
If nothing else was done but to insert photos or drawings of each type mentioned into those nine CVs you would have in hand the entire body of work and experiences that presumably influenced Folland designs such as the Fo 117. Maybe common design features or developed ideas might be apparent? Well I'd find it interesting anyway.
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Schneiderman on June 17, 2016, 08:47:27 am
for Kay company,there was Kay 32/1 and 33/1,the first time to hear about 33/5 ,what
was it ?.
Hesham, a previously unknown project I think. There are two clues in the CV, first that it had two engines and second that it was tendered, presumably to the Air Ministry. Unless this was a speculative project the only spec. that appears appropriate would be S.22/38 for an Experimental Rotating Wing Aircraft.
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: hesham on June 17, 2016, 03:24:05 pm
No problem my dear Dan,and many thanks.
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Schneiderman on June 27, 2016, 08:03:28 am
A little centenary history

One hundred years ago today, on 27th June 1916, The Supermarine Aviation Works Ltd was registered as a private company; restructured and reorganised from Pemberton-Billing Ltd after Billing sold his interest in the business when he entered Parliament.

The history of the company through R.J.Mitchell's tenure as Chief Engineer and Designer is in the book.

Thanks
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: blackkite on July 02, 2016, 06:07:30 am
I ordered my copy today. Perhaps it takes long time to get my copy in Japan. ;)
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Loren on July 02, 2016, 07:59:51 pm
I ordered mine a month ago and it will not be shipped until October
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Schneiderman on July 03, 2016, 12:29:16 am
I guess it depends where you ordered it. The book was published in mid May for UK and Europe but not until sometime on October for the US.
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Alcides on July 03, 2016, 08:39:39 pm
I ordered my copy today. Perhaps it takes long time to get my copy in Japan. ;)

I don't know where you ordered but I started using http://www.bookdepository.com/ instead of Amazon on us because not only they don't charge me the shipment the book arrives early!!!
I live in Argentina ( South America)  how a delivery from UK  ( across Atlantic)  is faster than one US  I've not idea!!!

Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Abraham Gubler on July 06, 2016, 01:10:41 am
Just got my copy. Another great addition to the aviation engineering history library. Some very interesting stuff and very top notch in content and presentation.

Let the Whatifissance continue in its glory!
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Schneiderman on July 06, 2016, 01:36:31 am
Many thanks for your comments  :)
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Schneiderman on September 25, 2016, 05:26:09 am
The publication date for Beyond the Spitfire in the US is 1st October but it looks like it may already be available from some dealers
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: PMN1 on November 05, 2016, 08:03:52 am
Why was Type 178 used for so many different designs?

What weights and size was the 01 Civil Mail Carrier proposal?
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Schneiderman on November 05, 2016, 08:56:35 am
I believe the number of concepts/projects in Type 178 reflects the slight hiatus within the company as Vickers took control of the business. Vickers did something similar with Type 153, which includes at least three different Vickers projects.

Only the basic layout drawings have survived for these Supermarine concepts and projects and they generally lack details on size and weight, unfortunately.

Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: PMN1 on November 05, 2016, 09:08:55 am

Only the basic layout drawings have survived for these Supermarine concepts and projects and they generally lack details on size and weight, unfortunately.

Pity as the mail carrier design does look quite interesting.
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: newsdeskdan on December 01, 2016, 12:42:43 am
Finally finished reading this - excellent work - I don't think anyone's ever going to top it in terms of detail. Can we get a companion volume that consists entirely of Matt Painter renders of pre-war Supermarine flying boats?
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Schneiderman on December 01, 2016, 03:33:54 am
Many thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed it.
The original plan was for Matt to provide all of the rendered illustrations in the colour section of the book but work pressure meant he ran out of time and I had to step in and rush through a bunch of simplified versions of my own. They are well short of his standard but seem the stand up quite well in the book, so I'm quite chuffed. Having done that it encouraged me to keep on learning and have produced a number of new models, some of which will probably end up being published in time as they illustrate articles I have written for magazines. As for Matt, he certainly had some grand ideas for the book so it would be nice to see them completed and made available in some form.
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: lark on December 01, 2016, 05:43:10 am
Can you give us a bit more info Schneiderman in which mag.s
an when your articles will be published ?
Thanks..
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Schneiderman on December 01, 2016, 05:57:34 am
Once publication is confirmed I'll let you know, there are three articles in the queue.  The first one is likely to be about a Supermarine project pre-Mitchell
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Mark Nankivil on December 01, 2016, 07:09:13 am
Good Day All!

I bought the book as well thru Book Depository (excellent price and speedy delivery - I'm in the U.S.) and thoroughly enjoyed it.  Fascinating designs, drawings and artwork - well done!

Totally agree on Matt's artwork - would love to see more of it.  Will you be using unpublished artwork in the articles?

Thanks for the time and effort to author this excellent title!

Enjoy the Day!  Mark
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Schneiderman on December 01, 2016, 07:44:26 am
Thanks Mark
Yes the three articles I have written feature new rendered images I have produced of previously unseen or unusual British aircraft projects, from the period 1917 to 1938.
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Schneiderman on December 05, 2016, 01:19:15 pm
Review by David Legg in The Catalina News issue 86
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: PMN1 on May 30, 2017, 03:59:48 pm
No it is a concept for a heavy bomber to spec. B.1/35 that was abandoned in favour of Vickers' Warwick.  Some of the ideas were carried forward for the Type 316 bomber to spec. B12/36.

Do you have any dimensions and estimated performance figures for the Supermarine B.1/35 spec?

Given how cramped and uncomfortable things look for the gunners, got to wonder how useful the armament would have actually been and whether or not the design could have formed the basis of a fast unarmed bomber.
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Schneiderman on May 31, 2017, 12:04:55 am
Unfortunately no details available. The surviving drawing is little more than a quick sketch, one of at least four alternative schemes and the others are all missing.
It is indeed unreasonably cramped for the crew, especially the gunners as you say, and would obviously have been rejected had it been tendered. The real interest lies in its similarity to Boeing projects of that time and the features that were carried forward for the Type 316. It would indeed have been interesting to see a down-scaled derivative.
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: PMN1 on June 02, 2017, 05:28:36 am
Where do you get the drawings shown in the various posts from?
Title: Re: Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram
Post by: Schneiderman on June 02, 2017, 11:19:20 am
No single source, there's plenty of original material out there if you look