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Author Topic: G10N Fugaku derived projects  (Read 84497 times)

Offline T-50

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G10N Fugaku derived projects
« on: February 28, 2010, 02:19:59 pm »
 Hello people Im curious if there were derived projects in development from the mega bomber Fugaku,for example were the Japanese developing a carco variant of this big airplane,or lighter bomber varians with less engines,range etc
I hope some one can help me with info drawnings of these projects.

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2010, 08:00:08 pm »
It's very difficult to find precise Fugaku variant drawings,also base design,too.
Almost drawings were lost.
Base design : Nakajima  HA54 engine(5,000hp in take off) ×6
Variant①    : Nakajima  HA44 engine(2,500hp in take off) ×6
Variant②    : Mitsubishi HA50 engine(3,000hp in take off) ×6
Variant③    : Kawanishi design
I will study these designs and post.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2010, 07:45:51 pm by blackkite »

Offline lark

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2010, 12:24:18 pm »
There were at least two gunship versions planned by Nakajima.

One for use against hostile bomber formations and an
other against deck crews of enemy ships.

The first should use a battery of guns in the belly
of a Fugaku variant to rain down a hail of 20mm
grenades on incoming bomber formations.

The other a series of machine guns in ventral
position to wipe out the the AA guncrews on the ships
and to facilitate also the air attacks on the ships.

These two planned versions were only a few of the several
Mukade - centipede- projects.

Source : Arawasi International Magazine May 2006 issue-Nr.4

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2010, 05:23:13 am »
Nakajima Chikuhei anticipated strategic bombing to Japan by B-29 in early 1942. To protect Japan from strategic bombing,he planned strategic bombing to the United States!! by very large bombers utilizing the westerlies(jet stream).(Ki-46Ⅳmarked over 700km/h average speed from Beijing to Tokyo utilizing jet stream.) In April 1943, he assembled elite Nakajima's designers(Yasushi Koyama,Yasuo Naito,etc) to the Nakajima club(welfare facility) and ordered them to perform basic design of this large bomber until June 1943. The design result was 6 engine(5,000hp take off power) bomber, which range was 16,000km with 20 ton bomb. After this effort, Chikuhei made 50 copies of "Winning strategy(必勝戦策)" in secret, explained to the political world, the financial world and the circle of government officials in August 1943. "Winning strategy" included two plans for this large bomber, one plan was designed by Nakajima aircraft Koizumi(小泉) factory IJN aircraft design department, which had single vertical tail stabilizer. Another one was designed by Nakajima aircraft Ohta(太田) factory IJA aircraft design department, which had double vertical tail stabilizer. Attached illustration for IJN aircraft design department's plan is from Fuji Heavy Industries calender in 1980.
These two designs are base for variants.
These designs were called Z-plane.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/airplane/museum/nakajima/FUGAKU.html
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 04:14:52 am by blackkite »

Offline lark

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2010, 12:03:08 pm »
Excellent.The color illustration produced by the design dept. is
clearly based on the 3-view on page 260 of Aireview's General view of
Japanese Military Aircraft in the Pacific War- Kantosha,Tokyo.
One of the oldest I ever have seen.
According your interpretation, should there have been two initial 'Z' plan concepts ..?

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2010, 02:14:55 pm »
Excellent.The color illustration produced by the design dept. is
clearly based on the 3-view on page 260 of Aireview's General view of
Japanese Military Aircraft in the Pacific War- Kantosha,Tokyo.
One of the oldest I ever have seen.
According your interpretation, should there have been two initial 'Z' plan concepts ..?

That's right!! There was a design competition between Koizumi factory and Ohta factory of Nakajima aircraft.

Offline lark

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2010, 11:28:25 am »
This confirms the info which I found and received.

Naval design section-Koizumi factory proposed a single tailfin version
Army design section-Ota factory proposed a design with twin tailfins.

A third an final 'Z' plan bomber by Nakajima was inspired on the best
of the two initial concepts.

This 3e design formed the basis for what
should become the Fugaku.

among the sources : correspondence with Mr.Ryusuke Ishiguro ,author of
Japanese Special attack aircraft & flying bombs.
(with Tadeusz Januszewski a.o)

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2010, 09:02:10 pm »
Hi! I made a table for Fugaku variant specification.
In my No2 Bible(ENCYCLOPEDIA OF JAPANESE AIRCRAFT 1900-1945,NAKAJIKA Volume), there is a 3-side view of Fugaku.
It has single propeller, I think it is Fugaku HA44 or HA50 varint.
The Fugaku design team faced many difficult problems at the day,such as engine cooling, under carriage including big tires,wing root strength, pressurized cabin.
One of the most hard one was a HA54 engine cooling problem,and they must considered some variants for early realization of Fugaku.
(Sorry B-36J's J47 number is 4 while my table is 6.)  
http://matever.com/archives/ct01complete/_1144.html
http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/yuunagi_dameya/7557760.html
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 11:26:02 pm by blackkite »

Offline airman

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2010, 03:10:47 am »
well , it's solved also question of Kawanishi TB !!  :) :D
Thanks blackkite  !  ;D
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Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2010, 03:39:41 am »
Hi airman! You are welcome.
I got 3-side view of Z-plane which designed by IJN aircraft design department of Nakajima Aircraft. Enjoy!
(Or perhaps this is the final Z-plane.)  
Source;Fugaku, Kodan-sha Co.Ltd,Tokyo
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 03:11:59 pm by blackkite »

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2010, 05:42:17 am »
Hi airman! Another data of Kawanishi TB.
Engine:2,100hp class air cooling radial 18 cylinder with turbo super charger×4.
Wing span:32.4m, Length:28.0m, Height:7.0m, Wing Area:220m2, Empty Weight:26.5ton, MTOW:74ton, Max Speed:601.9km/h@12,000m, Service Ceiling:12,000m, Range:20,372km(4.6ton bomb), 25,557.6km(2to bomb)
Source:All the Experimental Aircraft in Japanese Army, Minoru Akimoto, KANTOSHA, Tokyo.2008.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 05:44:45 am by blackkite »

Offline airman

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2010, 11:18:55 am »
Hi airman! Another data of Kawanishi TB.
Engine:2,100hp class air cooling radial 18 cylinder with turbo super charger×4.
Wing span:32.4m, Length:28.0m, Height:7.0m, Wing Area:220m2, Empty Weight:26.5ton, MTOW:74ton, Max Speed:601.9km/h@12,000m, Service Ceiling:12,000m, Range:20,372km(4.6ton bomb), 25,557.6km(2to bomb)
Source:All the Experimental Aircraft in Japanese Army, Minoru Akimoto, KANTOSHA, Tokyo.2008.
thanks blackkite  ;D
seems a little small  and four - engine versions of Fugaku !  ::)
oh yeah : it's a derived project  !  :D
I hope to see in future also the version cg (computer graphic) of Kawanishi TB.
Could be Kawanishi TB and Kawanishi G9K awesome derived project of Fugaku ?  ???
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 11:23:07 am by airman »
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Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2010, 03:08:32 pm »
This confirms the info which I found and received.

Naval design section-Koizumi factory proposed a single tailfin version
Army design section-Ota factory proposed a design with twin tailfins.

A third an final 'Z' plan bomber by Nakajima was inspired on the best
of the two initial concepts.

This 3e design formed the basis for what
should become the Fugaku.

among the sources : correspondence with Mr.Ryusuke Ishiguro ,author of
Japanese Special attack aircraft & flying bombs.
(with Tadeusz Januszewski a.o)
Hi lark! Your are absolutely right. I modified the table.So colored illustration from FHI calender might be the final Z-plane.I add Koizumi plan which had single prop, but it's apparently mistake.
It had double prop.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 04:05:30 pm by blackkite »

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2010, 07:15:59 pm »
Kawanishi TB was the competitor of Fugaku,ordered by Ministry of Military Supplies in 1943. TB means "toyo bakugeki(渡洋爆撃)", in English,oversea bombing. TB was defeated by Fugaku in January 1944. TB's design was joint work between Kawanishi and Tokyo imperial university. Hidemasa Kimura(木村秀政,designer of A-26 and YS-11) was the chief designer of Tokyo imperial university team.
TB had laminar flow wing(LB wing) developed by Ichiro Tani(谷一郎), and had very aerodynamically clean shape. L/D was 35.
Kawanishi G9K was a derivative of H8K 2-shiki flying boat?
« Last Edit: March 07, 2010, 04:43:34 am by blackkite »

Offline lark

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2010, 11:13:55 am »
Great work Blacklite..

Offline T-50

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2010, 12:57:53 pm »
Hello blackkite and others I must say this is awesome stuff! didn't know there was so much info about the Z program I know that Kawasaki was also developing a contender to the Nakajima G10N Fugaku.But I was surprised to read that there is such detailed info,I'm glad   that a lot of info  survived the war.
there are even pics of mock-up models of the huge and very powerfull engines then in development for the Zbomber
great work guys!

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2010, 05:19:32 am »
Recently I got this big book "富嶽(FUGAKU)" ,Author:Maema Takanori(前間孝則),Kodansha Tokyo published in 1991. It has almost 600 pages.
I will read this book and report near future. Z/FUGAKU was a very mysterious plane. Almost all drawings and data were burned out entirely.
Ed's "JAPANESE SECRET PROJECTS EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT OF THE IJA AND IJN 1939-1945" include very impressive colored 3-side view of Fugaku. It's the ultimate Fugaku. It has HA54 engine, not Z-plane.

Offline lark

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2010, 06:03:29 am »
Maybe this bit of additional info can be usefull..

In August 1944 it was realized that the technology was beyond reach and Nakjima gave up
on the engine and aircraft as it was originally conceived.
The superbomber was scaled down.
A smaller design was to be powered by 6 Nakajima NK 11A engines that could produce 2500hp.
The scaled down Fugaku would have a wingspan of 207ft and a length of 121ft.
(instead of the 237ft span and 144ft length of the former design)

Source :The second attack on Pearl Harbor-chapter:Extending the range-page 270

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2010, 06:26:34 am »
Hi!
"Super large bomber Fugaku(富嶽)'s engine(4)"
The HA54 engine was required high reliability,the design team wanted to perform several basic tests and full scale mock up model construction prior to fix final design. But the schedule was very severe to perform every test and mock up construction that design team planned.
The HA54 development plan in March 1944 was as follows.
1.Machine manufacturing of parts for No1 and No2 engine:March 1944 to September 1944.
2.Assembly of No1 engine:October 1944.
3.Assembly of No2 engine:Nobember 1944.
4.Endurance test finish:February 1945.
5.The first flight of No1 Fugaku:May 1945.
But in July 1944, Nakajima received order to terminate Fugaku project from IJA and IJN after Saipan island fall(1944/07/07),because IJA and IJN concentrated on fighter manufacturing which used for B-29 Interception and KAMIKAZE special attack.
At the time, the HA54 design team already finished the design and prepared all parts drawings.
The materials for crank shaft and crank case already delivered to Nakajima. Machine manufacturing began.
The design team disappointed very much to receive stop order. They wanted to complete HA54 engine very much. 
Chikuhei Nakajima instructed design team that Nakajima Aircraft will crush after WW2.The automobile age will begin.Study hard!!
(same as my mother ;D)
Nakajima Aircraft became Fuji(Fugaku) heavy industries.
  http://www.fhi.co.jp/english/

Offline T-50

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2010, 09:11:09 am »
I was wondering if the scaledown version of Fugaku was capable of nonstop flying from Japan to the USA and back.
Has this design a greenhouse cockpit or was this design equipped with a conventional design,and could this design carry the Japanese atombomb?
I'm also very curious was there a transport version of this aircraft? It seems logical that Engineers of the Nakajima company were thinking of a huge cargo aircraft that was capable to carry battle tanks and troops to a battle field far away of the Japanese motherland

Offline lark

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2010, 11:43:22 am »
In his presentation Chikuhei Nakajima mentioned a transport
variant of his "Z' plan bomber but no details were given.
I strongly doubt about a Japanese A-bomb. In my personal opinion
it is as much a blown up myth as the nazi germany bomb was ...

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2010, 05:46:48 am »
Fugaku planned to use jet stream. Please see the direction of jet stream. Fugaku's mission was as follows.
Take off Japan, fly over Pacific ocean, bomb the United States, fly over Atlantic ocean and land to Germany.
Take off Germany, fly over Soviet union, fly over Japan sea and land to Japan.
Designers of Fugaku always watched a terrestrial globe. To use stream, it was expected that the range of Fugaku increased 20% - 30%.  
« Last Edit: March 27, 2010, 02:06:00 pm by blackkite »

Offline Nick Sumner

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2010, 07:04:09 am »
Fascinating info Blackkite! Thank you.

To be clear - the blue lines on the maps you have posted are the jetstream? Or are they the planned course of Fugaku missions?

Offline airman

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2010, 09:41:17 am »
cool thread !  B)
We are discovering many interesting things about Fugaku !  :)
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Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2010, 02:27:29 pm »
Fascinating info Blackkite! Thank you.

To be clear - the blue lines on the maps you have posted are the jetstream? Or are they the planned course of Fugaku missions?
Sorry. It's jet stream line. So jet stream act as strong counter wind for German New York bomber when she goes to there.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2010, 07:55:47 pm by blackkite »

Offline T-50

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2010, 02:38:36 pm »
what were the targets of this huge bomber? I think citys like San Francisco or Los Angeles.

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2010, 04:48:00 am »
Chikuhei Nakajima thought that the targets were Pittsburgh and New York.
Some Japanese fiction writer says that the target was Los Alamos,not Los Angeles. ;D
« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 04:49:45 am by blackkite »

Offline T-50

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2010, 03:07:25 pm »
In his presentation Chikuhei Nakajima mentioned a transport
variant of his "Z' plan bomber but no details were given.
I strongly doubt about a Japanese A-bomb. In my personal opinion
it is as much a blown up myth as the nazi germany bomb was ...
The Japanese were really developing a atom weapon later into the war,so its hard reality not a myth!they experimenting even with a sort of death ray.
and I know one thing for sure if the Japanese were to manage to build a working device,the Fugaku was the ultimate carrier platform for such a weapon

Offline lark

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2010, 02:39:06 am »
It should be interesting for us to see your sources...

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2010, 06:28:42 am »
I heard that Japanese theory for A-bomb was not proper.

Offline royabulgaf

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2010, 02:34:25 pm »
the Japanese had a couple centrifuges that IIRC were strictly experimental and were destroyed in a bombing raid in 1943.  Strictly lab work after that.

Offline T-50

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2010, 02:51:07 pm »
It should be interesting for us to see your sources...
[/quo
te]
Hello Lark if you go to the wikipedia site and go for Japanese nuclear weapon program,you can read the whole story!
And they have links to other sites about this topic

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2010, 09:37:03 pm »
Wikipedia is a great project in itself, but due to its nature, statements there should
often be regarded just as unproven clues, not as facts. Nevertheless, the article
you've mentioned, to my opinion contains the answer to the question about a japanese
nuclear weapon in it's very first paragraph:
"Like the German nuclear weapons program, it suffered from an array of problems, and was
ultimately unable to head off the Manhattan Project's ..."
The theoretical possibilty of building a nuclear explosive device was well known then and I
wouldn't be surprised to hear one day, that even in countries like Peru or Ethiopia (just examples
and of course not meant to offend anybody !) single scientists or small groups were tasked with
developing such a weapon. But that doesn't mean, that there ever would have been the slightest
chance for those countries to built a workable nuclear bomb !
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2010, 05:45:53 am »
Hi! I find some more variants of Z/Fugaku.
They are
(1)Temporary 6 engine bomber.(single propeller)
(2)4 engine bomber.(double propeller)
I modify the table again.
Enjoy.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 05:54:04 am by blackkite »

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2010, 05:50:51 am »
Hi! 4 engine bomber and another picture of final Z. Enjoy.
Source:Japanese experimental aircraft,Futaba-sha,Tokyo

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2010, 06:54:03 am »
I heard that Japanese theory for A-bomb was not proper.

My understanding is that the Japanese had the theory correct (unlike the Germans) but a lack of resources and a late start meant the project had no hope of fruition during the course of the war.

Offline lark

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2010, 07:13:14 am »
Magnificent discovering Blacklite..
At last , the 'Z' plan bomber and Fugaku history becomes
less misty.. thanks for the detailed work.

Offline Skybolt

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2010, 08:09:53 am »
I agree with my friend Lark, Blackkite-san, arigato !

Offline Justo Miranda

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2010, 10:02:16 am »
found additional stuff

Offline T-50

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2010, 01:24:54 pm »
I must say my compliments to Blackkite and Justo Miranda for their awesome pics and info! this topic is getting more and more interesting by the hour.
I made a model of the fugaku couple years ago,but with this new info I going to plan to build a new Fugaku model.
But more accurate than the previous model

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #40 on: March 12, 2010, 02:09:13 pm »
I agree with my friend Lark, Blackkite-san, arigato !
Hi! My dear skybolt san. Doitashimashite.(どういたしまして。You are welcome.)
We look forward Ed any your joint venture, Italian Secret Project very much.

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #41 on: March 12, 2010, 03:37:10 pm »
Hi! I can't identify this drawing. Someone please help. Was this the Fugaku variant?
We already know that Fugaku had a wing root strength problem, but this shape weakend the strength of wing root!
It looks like He111. ;D

Offline Justo Miranda

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #42 on: March 12, 2010, 04:27:18 pm »
May be Kawanishi "Gunzan" or project Z?  ???

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #43 on: March 12, 2010, 06:43:58 pm »
Thanks Justo!

Brief history of Z/Fugaku project
(1) 1943/1/28 : 4 engine and 6 engine large bomber plan(including gun ship variant and cargo variant) was made by Nakajima aircraft
                 private venture.(Engine was HA177,Mamori engine variant? Take off power is unknown.)
(2) 1943/2/16 : 4 engine and 6 engine large bomber plan was made by Nakajima aircraft private        
                 venture.(Engine was double BH(HA54),take off power was 4,400hp each.)
(3) 1943/3/5 : Temporary 6 engine(HA44,take off power was 2,600hp each) bomber plan(including cargo
                 variant
) was made by Nakajima aircraft.
(4) 1943/4~1943/6 : Basic design for Z-plane was performed by Satoshi Koyama,Yasuo Naito,etc
                  in Nakajima club.
(5) 1943/6/8 : 'Z-plane design explanation' was made by Nakajima aircraft.(final Z-plane plan)
(6) 1943/8 : 'Winning strategy or Winning game plan(必勝戦策)' was made by Chikuhei Nakajima.
(7) 1943/9 : Z-plane was selected as IJN and IJA joint research program, IJN insisted that service
                ceiling was 15,000m with light armament, IJA insisted that service ceiling was 10,000
                with heavy armament. Finally IJN's plan was selected with range was
                18,520km(15,000n.m)
(8) 1944/1 : IJN and IJA compared with Fugaku and Kawanishi TB, selected Fugaku, although JJN
                 hoped TB.
(9) 1944/1 : Named this plane as Fugaku(富嶽). Established Fugaku committee, chairman was
                Chikuhei Nakajima, members were Kugisho, IJA aircraft technology research institute,
                Central aircraft research institute, Tokyo imperial university, Nakajima Aircraft,
                Mitsubishi Aircraft, Sumitomo Metal and Hitachi.
(10) 1944/3/14 : Fugaku committee offered to IJN and IJA following two stage developing plan for
                Fugaku because of the delay of HA54 development.  
                ①Realize HA44 engine×6 bomber.
                ② Realize HA54 engine×4 bomber or HA50 engine×6 bomber.
(11) 1944/8 : IJN and IJA stopped Fugaku project followed the fall of Saipan island .

We have not seen the official drawing of HA54×4 Fugaku still now.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2010, 08:55:57 pm by blackkite »

Offline lark

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #44 on: March 13, 2010, 02:44:32 am »
Dear Justo  and Blackkite
The 6-engined bomber should be an 'after the war' and
highly speculative design.Drawing was published in a Japanese
magazine mid sixties..
I'll try to comeback with more info which I have somewere in my files..
« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 02:47:49 am by lark »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #45 on: March 13, 2010, 03:44:50 am »
Dear Justo  and Blackkite
The 6-engined bomber should be an 'after the war' and
highly speculative design.Drawing was published in a Japanese
magazine mid sixties..
I'll try to comeback with more info which I have somewere in my files..

Thanks lark!
It had single propeller, considering this feature, the engine was HA44 or HA50. ;)

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #46 on: March 13, 2010, 03:51:32 am »
I must say my compliments to Blackkite and Justo Miranda for their awesome pics and info! this topic is getting more and more interesting by the hour.
I made a model of the fugaku couple years ago,but with this new info I going to plan to build a new Fugaku model.
But more accurate than the previous model
Hi T-50! We look forward your new work about this beauty. Please take care that 50% under carridge of Fugaku were dropped after take off.
I think it's one of the magic of Fugaku's high performance.

Offline lark

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2010, 07:28:17 am »
About the elliptical winged design.

From the book:Kyojin-ki Monogatari (Giant plane story)
by Minoru Akimoto- Publ Kojin-sha 2002
cited by Ryushuke Ishiguro on J-aircraft.

"...There was a time when a drawing of an elliptical-winged aircraft with six
engines was called 'Fugaku'.The drawing was put in the magazine "Soku" of Mach Club as
'G10N1' around 1965..."
"Later this drawing was introduced in other magazines..."
".. The source of the drawing was a famous engineer professor.There are stories that this was
the early design of Fugaku or 'Z'plane,but Nakajima had never thought of using elliptical wings.The idea that this was TB is not correct because TB had four engines. Therefore this drawing of the
eleptical-winged airplane maybe only an imaginary concept or a very private sketch..."

So far the above mentioned sources...
 

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #48 on: March 13, 2010, 07:48:56 am »
 It may derive from Heinkel He 116B...

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #49 on: March 13, 2010, 06:26:56 pm »
Thanks a lot lark and Justo.
I introduce you two books.

①IJN & IJA Experimental Aircraft(日本軍試作機). FUTABA-SHA(双葉社),Tokyo,2005/2/25.ISBN978-4-87357-233-8
   This book shows the blue print of final Z, 4 engine(HA54) bomber, Temporary 6 engine(HA44) bomber, CG(Shinden,Reppu,Senden,Kitsuka,
   Ki-64,Ki-87,Ki-94,Ki-91,Ki-93,Ki-88).
   FUTABA-SHA has some Nakajima Aircraft original documents for Z/FUGAKU.
   (Z project plan explanation, Temporary 6 engine bomber explanation, Z-plane design calculation report,etc). Please confirm attached picture.

②All the Experimental Aircraft in Japanese Army(日本陸軍試作機大鑑).KANTOSHA,Tokyo,2008.(Minoru Akimoto,秋本実) .ISBN4-575-47587-4
   This book include the precise description and drawings for Z/FUGAKU,Kawanishi TB,Ki-117,etc.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 06:29:27 pm by blackkite »

Offline robunos

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #50 on: March 14, 2010, 05:06:22 am »
Quote
It may derive from Heinkel He 116B...

From 'Warplanes of the Third Reich'. page 324 :-

"In 1936, Deutche Lufthansa (DLH) began to display
 an interest in the possibilities of direct mail services
to the Far East. The route contemplated...
crossing the Pamir Mountain range...
dictating a service ceiling in excess of
25,000ft...
Heinkel initiated the design of a four-engined
longe-range monoplane specifically to meet
DLH's needs."

"Two of the He 116A-0 aircraft had, in the meantime,
been ordered by the Japanese, these being registered
J-BAKD and J-EAKF and named Nogi and Togo
respectively...
arriving in Tokyo on April 29th, 1938...
These were subsequently operated...
over the Tokyo-Hsingking route."

So the He 116 would have been available for study in Japan,
bearing in mind the original purpose of the design
was for a long-range, high-altitude mail carrier...


cheers,
         Robin.
Where ARE the Daleks when you need them......

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #51 on: March 14, 2010, 06:21:49 am »
Hi Robin! I thank you very much for your quick action.
I confirmed that your information is true by my No.1/No2. bible.
Nogi was from "Maresuke Nogi(乃木希典)".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nogi_Maresuke
Togo was from "Heihachiro Togo(東郷平八郎)".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C5%8Dg%C5%8D_Heihachir%C5%8D
« Last Edit: March 20, 2010, 08:22:41 pm by blackkite »

Offline T-50

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #52 on: March 14, 2010, 02:22:13 pm »
found additional stuff
Hi Justo Miranda could you please tell the title and the author,publisher of this book,i want this book adding to my own collection
cheers T-50

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #53 on: March 14, 2010, 02:26:33 pm »
Dear Justo  and Blackkite
The 6-engined bomber should be an 'after the war' and
highly speculative design.Drawing was published in a Japanese
magazine mid sixties..
I'll try to comeback with more info which I have somewere in my files..

Hello Lark I cant wait for the info!

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #54 on: March 15, 2010, 06:40:38 am »
Afternoon T-50..

See my 2e post on March 13 please..

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #55 on: March 18, 2010, 02:16:57 pm »
Hi! 4 engine bomber and another picture of final Z. Enjoy.
Source:Japanese experimental aircraft,Futaba-sha,Tokyo
I ask my self why has the aircraft on the first blueprint pic a strange jumbo jet like back?
was this space mend for extra fueltanks?

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #56 on: March 19, 2010, 10:13:02 pm »
Hi T-50 san! According to your question, we are approaching to some facts about Z/FUGAKU variants.
Now we are discussing about 4 engine bomber.
This design was proposed in 1943/1/28, earlier than final Z(proposed in 1943/6/8).We already know that the basic design for Z-plane was performed by Satoshi Koyama,Yasuo Naito,etc in 1943/4~1943/6(in Nakajima club). So this design was pre-Z plane. This aircraft had double propeller, the engine was HA54(5,000hp in take off). The propeller diameter was 4.8m, then we can calculate following dimension of this 4 engine aircraft.
Wing span:about 70m to 75m(perhaps 72.5m same as Z(Ohta)), length:about 50m.
Fuselage was bigger than final Z, I can't understand the meaning of this fuselage shape. Final Z was very slim. I feel that engine nacelle shape and wing tip shape were similar to DC-4E.  
« Last Edit: March 20, 2010, 05:18:55 am by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #57 on: March 20, 2010, 03:22:24 pm »
Hi Fugaku structure and Z-Koizumi(Nakajima IJN aircraft design department) structure.Enjoy!
In Fugaku drawing, I realize following items.
①The engine is BH(HA44, 18 cylinder, 2,500hp in take off), so this was the Fugaku first stage
    plan offered by Fugaku committee. Fugaku second stage plan had six HA50 engine(22 cylinder
    2 array, 3,500hp intake off, almost same power of P&W R4360 WASP majors 4 array 28
    cylinder) or four HA54 engine(36 cylinder 4 array, 5,000hp in take off).
②This plan has a passage tube between fore pressurized cabin and aft pressurized part.
In Z-Koizumi drawing, I realize following items.
①The engine is HA54 with double propeller(contra rotating propeller). 
②It had drop tire.
③The armament included torpedo.
④This plan had remote controlled 20mm cannon turret.
Source:Goodbye air battle ship Fugaku(さらば空中戦艦富嶽),KOJINSHA(光人社) TOKYO,2002/2/16, Yoshiro Ikari(碇義朗), ISBN4-7698-2335-5 C0195
« Last Edit: March 27, 2010, 04:38:59 pm by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #58 on: March 20, 2010, 03:28:14 pm »
Hi Z Gun Ship and Z Cargo Variant!. Enjoy!
Source:Goodbye air battle ship Fugaku(さらば空中戦艦富嶽),KOJINSHA(光人社) TOKYO,2002/2/16, Yoshiro Ikari(碇義朗), ISBN4-7698-2335-5 C0195

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #59 on: March 20, 2010, 04:13:28 pm »
Hi! Final Z 3-side view and picture. Enjoy!
But engine and propeller are apparently mistake. Final Z had double propeller.
Source:Militaly Aircraft Development Story(軍用機開発物語), Kojinsha Tokyo(光人社), Takeo Doi(土井武夫), ISBN978-4-7698-2334-6 C0195.

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #60 on: March 20, 2010, 04:36:33 pm »
I remember reading about a microwave weapon, but can't find the page anymore (not a forum, anyway, wikipedia has more at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_and_special_weapons_in_Showa_Japan ). Anyway, for close range work against people. Perhaps behind cover / inside buildings? I don't think it has anything to do with Fugaku.

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #61 on: March 21, 2010, 04:30:39 am »
I remember reading about a microwave weapon, but can't find the page anymore (not a forum, anyway, wikipedia has more at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_and_special_weapons_in_Showa_Japan ). Anyway, for close range work against people. Perhaps behind cover / inside buildings? I don't think it has anything to do with Fugaku.
Thanks a lot mz. Very interesting information!

Offline T-50

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #62 on: March 21, 2010, 03:31:17 pm »
Hi Blackkite very interesting pics from the final version of the Fugaku.I saw on the underside of the wings two pods,they looked as two jet engines it seemsthat these engines where to support the Fugaku at takeoff.
If they were really incorporated into the design,its a very interesting and advanced part of this final design!

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #63 on: March 21, 2010, 04:22:55 pm »
Hi Blackkite very interesting pics from the final version of the Fugaku.I saw on the underside of the wings two pods,they looked as two jet engines it seemsthat these engines where to support the Fugaku at takeoff.
If they were really incorporated into the design,its a very interesting and advanced part of this final design!

Oh! I realize now. You are very sharp eyed, too!!

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #64 on: March 22, 2010, 08:09:10 am »
really nice !

i have a doubt :
Kawanishi Type 17 Experimental Ground Bomber (K-100) was directly connected with derived projects of Fugaku or was an other different project ?
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Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #65 on: March 23, 2010, 05:52:42 am »
really nice !

i have a doubt :
Kawanishi Type 17 Experimental Ground Bomber (K-100) was directly connected with derived projects of Fugaku or was an other different project ?
Kawanishi 17-shi land base bomber(K100,torpedo bomber) was a twin engine bomber which could operate as a dive bomber. The size of K100 was smaller than 1-shiki land base bomber(G4M), larger than Ginga(P1Y). K100's engine were Nakajima Mamori-kai(護-改)(Modified Mamori). (Mamori was a 14 cylinder engine). The shape of K100 was similar to Ginga land base bomber, and engine nacelle was very big.But Nakajima stopped Mamori-kai's development and IJN decided that next land base bomber was Renzan 4 engine bomber.
Kawanishi terminated K100 experimental production.
Wing span:21.6m, Length:15.0m, Height:6.07m, Wing Area:64m2, Empty Weight:8,550kg, MTOW:16,000kg, Engine:Nakajima Mamori-kai air cooling radial 18 cylinder engine(2,300hp in take off), Max speed:606km/h(325kt)/7,600m, Service Ceiling:11,200m, Range:5,556km(3,000n.m.), Wing Loading:211kg/m2, Crew:4, Armament:20mm×3. Torpedo:800kg.
Expected K100's performance surpassed B-25 and B-26 very much.
IJN ordered Mitsubishi to study land base bomber with same specification as K100, too.
Source:My No.2 Bible.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 08:37:47 pm by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #66 on: March 23, 2010, 05:19:28 pm »
really nice !

i have a doubt :
Kawanishi Type 17 Experimental Ground Bomber (K-100) was directly connected with derived projects of Fugaku or was an other different project ?
Kawanishi 17-shi land base bomber(K100,torpedo bomber) was a twin engine bomber which could operate as a dive bomber. The size of K100 was smaller than 1-shiki land base bomber(G4M), larger than Ginga(P1Y). K100's engine were Nakajima Mamori-kai(護-改)(Modified Mamori), air cooling 18 cylinder engine(2,300hp in take off).(Mamori was a 14 cylinder engine). The shape of K100 was similar to Ginga, and engine nacelle was very big.But Nakajima stopped Mamori-kai's development and IJN decided that next land base bomber was Renzan 4 engine bomber.
Kawanishi terminated K100 experimental production.
Wing span:21.6m, Length:15.0m, Height:6.07m, Wing Area:64m2, Empty Weight:8,550kg, MTOW:16,000kg, Engine:Nakajima Mamori-kai air cooling radial 18 cylinder engine(2,300hp in take off), Max speed:606km/h(325kt)/7,600m, Service Ceiling:11,200m, Range:5,556km(3,000n.m.), Wing Loading:211kg/m2, Crew:4, Armament:20mm×3. Torpedo:800kg.
Expected K100's performance surpassed B-25 and B-26 very much. Source:My No.2 Bible.
thanks blackkite, i hope to see , in future, a picture of K-100 !  :)
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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #67 on: March 24, 2010, 04:09:27 am »
Hi airman! There are no K100 drawings in my books and Japanese internet site.
The wing of K100 was little larger than Ginga's wing. Aspect ratio was 7.3. Dihedral of wing inner part was 0°, outer part was 5°.
Sweptback angle was 30°!? Source:My No.2 Bible.  
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 04:20:54 am by blackkite »

Offline T-50

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #68 on: March 24, 2010, 03:51:00 pm »
 I saw on one of the drawings send by Blackkite a to me very simple type of bombsight,was a no more advanced design of a bombsight? I know the Japanese have captured a US Norden bombsight and copied,so I can imagine that they designed a new type bombsight based on the norden type and placed it on board the Fugaku.
I ask my self were the Japanese planning a bombsight based on radar for the Fugaku,like the radarset on the B-29?

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #69 on: March 26, 2010, 05:47:20 pm »
I saw on one of the drawings send by Blackkite a to me very simple type of bombsight,was a no more advanced design of a bombsight? I know the Japanese have captured a US Norden bombsight and copied,so I can imagine that they designed a new type bombsight based on the norden type and placed it on board the Fugaku.
I ask my self were the Japanese planning a bombsight based on radar for the Fugaku,like the radarset on the B-29?
Sorry. I'm not sure about bombsight of Fugaku. I will study.
The National Institute for Defence Studies in Tokyo has the "Winning Game Plan,必勝戦策". I will try to get the copy of 必勝戦策.
http://www.nids.go.jp/english/index.html

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #70 on: March 30, 2010, 07:09:12 am »
Hi! She has contra rotating propeller, so the engines are HA54.
But Fugaku committee offered four HA54 engine Fugaku as the second stage of Fugaku project.
She might be the ultimate Fugaku, not Z-plane because she has B-29 like cabin.
Source:I forget the source of this drawing,sorry. Perhaps from some Japanese internet site.  
« Last Edit: March 30, 2010, 03:29:46 pm by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #71 on: March 30, 2010, 07:47:25 am »
Blackkite-san, the last transparency you posted is a modern or a wartime one ?

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #72 on: March 30, 2010, 08:57:52 am »
"She might be the ultimate Fugaku, not Z-plane because she has B-29 like cabin."

I have always wondered about this. Some drawings of G10N show traditional cockpit and others look like the B-29. Is that a fact that a B-29 style cockpit is someones post war imagination of what might have been?
Frank

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #73 on: March 30, 2010, 08:58:04 pm »
Hi Skybolt-san! Thank you very much for your attention for Fugaku.
Unfortunately I forget the source of this drawing. I imagine that you think that this drawing’s structure and equipments arrangement are proper from your professional viewpoint.
I think this drawing is after war work, because six HA54 engine Fugaku was not offered by Fugaku committee to IJN and IJA. I think that this drawing was cooked up by similar drawing of B-29 or B-36.(If not so, I am terribly sorry for the writer. ;D)
Hi windswords-san! I don’t think so, because there is a Fugaku drawing in my No.2 bible which has the   B-29 type cabin. My No.2 bible was made by all Japan line up.(Tadashi Nozawa, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Kawasaki Heavy Industries, Fuji Heavy Industries, etc)
It might be true that all of Fugaku’s drawings were burned out and we can’t see the official blue print of Fugaklu. But It’s impossible to erase memory of engineers who engaged in Fugaku project. They must be remember the detail of Fugaku’s data very clearly. This is the reason why I believe Fugaku’s B-29 style cabin is true.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2010, 04:05:09 am by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #74 on: April 01, 2010, 06:52:27 am »
I saw on one of the drawings send by Blackkite a to me very simple type of bombsight,was a no more advanced design of a bombsight? I know the Japanese have captured a US Norden bombsight and copied,so I can imagine that they designed a new type bombsight based on the norden type and placed it on board the Fugaku.
I ask my self were the Japanese planning a bombsight based on radar for the Fugaku,like the radarset on the B-29?
Hi! I can't find any evidence of Japanese radar bombsite project.
Yes Japan copied Norden bombsight from B-25. It was completed in January 1944, called 4-shi automatic bombsight for 4-shiki heavy ;D bomber Hiryu(飛竜).There were 17-shi bombsight(90-shiki bombsight) picture(right) and night bombsight picture(left) in Z-plane cabin drawing.
Bombsight=爆撃照準器
http://gunsight.jp/b/1/sight-a.htm
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 05:22:47 am by blackkite »

Offline T-50

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #75 on: April 01, 2010, 12:48:56 pm »
Hi Blackkite San this is very interesting stuff you send me,thanks! this was for the Japanese optical industry a very usefull gift although the Americans didn't want this to fall into the hands of the Japanese.
with this new data they could develop their own very advanced bombsights

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #76 on: April 03, 2010, 10:49:10 pm »
From "富嶽(FUGAKU)" ,Author:Maema Takanori(前間孝則),Kodansha(講談社) Tokyo
published in 1991.ISBN4-06-205543-0 C0095 P2000E(0)       No.(1)

In November 1942, Chikuhei Nakajima called twenty Nakajima's elite engineers to the Nakajima club, explained that
①Japan would lost the war by strategic bombing to Japan using B-29 and B-36 from 1944.(He already knew B-36 at the day!)  
②The only way to win the war was strategic bombing to the United States by transoceanic large    
    bomber with 5,000hp engines, which speed was higher than American fighter.
③This plan was already explained to the JIJA and IJN.
④Study how to realize this bomber as the secret private venture, keep secret.
⑤ Named secret study party as “Winning game, guard Japanese sky research party(必勝防空研究
    会) ”, leader was chief engineer  Satoshi Koyama(小山悌).  
Then the conceptual design began by the secret party, the chief of fuselage study was Shinobu Mitake(三竹忍)(Shinzan chief designer), the chief of engine study was Tanaka Kiyoshi(田中清史)(Mamori(護) engine and NBD engine chief designer). The engine designing team started discussion between Kotani(小谷)(Section manager), Tanaka(田中), Nakagawa(中川)(chief designer of Homare(誉) engine), Inoue(井上) and Kudo(工藤). They discussed about several engine types.
Tanaka and Kudo recommended 4 array 36 cylinder HA54 engine.(tandem double HA44 engine)
BTW Nakagawa argued against this engine that cooling would be the big problem, too risky.
Nakagawa insisted 4,000hp 26 cylinder!!(2 array 13 cylinder) engine which diameter was rather  
bigger than HA54. Finally Tanaka and Inoue agreed Nakagawa's plan. The 26 cylinder engine  plan
was explained to Chikuhei by Koyama. BTW Chikuhei rejected this 4,000hp engine and ordered to Koyama ”Don't be less than only 1hp from 5,000hp”.  

Mitake studied 26 aircraft types based on Chikuhei's idea for the answer of Chikuhei's order.
They were from small plane to large plane, carrier base bomber, torpedo bomber, attack bomber, twin engine bomber,  long range bomber, gun ship and cargo plane. At the time, Nakajima's design for the aircraft were based on British R&W report and NACA's report for wing section. Yasuo Naito(Desiger of Saiun's laminar flow wing and past war T-1 trainer) made his own chart for the aircraft basic design from the British R&W report and NACA's report. Naito helped Mitake's study, he thought that among 26 types, the final 3 types were very difficult to design. They were very big long range bomber, gun ship which had 20 cannon located under the fuselage to shoot American fighter and cargo plane to carry soldiers to the United States.
Finally Mitake and Naito merged these 26 types into one long range bomber.            
« Last Edit: April 04, 2010, 12:26:15 am by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #77 on: April 04, 2010, 08:24:09 am »
From "富嶽(FUGAKU)" ,Author:Maema Takanori(前間孝則),  No.(2)

The results of basic design for Z-plane(Final Z-plane)  performed by Satoshi Koyama,Yasuo Naito,etc in Nakajima club in 1943/4~1943/6 were as follows.
Wing span:65m, Length:45m, Height:12m, angle of ground position:9 degree?, Wing area:350m2, Maximum wing chord length:9m, Dihedral:3.5 degree, aspect ratio:12, Taper ratio:1:5, angle of incidence:6 degree, horizontal tail stabilizer area:60m2, Vertical tail stabilizer area:40m2,Distance between main wheels:9m, Fuselage fuel tanks capacity;42,720L, Wing fuel tanks capacity:57,200L,
Wing loading:457kg/m2, Power loading:5.3kg/hp, Empty weight:67.3ton, MTOW:160ton, Engine:six double BH(HA54) 5,000hp in take off, 4,600hp/7,000m, Propeller:3 blade contra rotating 4.8m diameter, Maximum speed:680km/h/7,000m, Service ceiling:12,480m, Take off run:1,200m, Range:16000km with 20 ton bomb.   

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #78 on: April 07, 2010, 04:12:45 am »
Hi! Radio controlled Z/Fugaku flying model. It's 1/15 scale model. (Cooperator: Fuji Heavy Industries ;))
http://www.nextftp.com/ty2/plink12.htm
http://sky.geocities.jp/fukiagerc/ivent_syokai/2009_5_2ivent/fugakuwo_tobasou.html
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 07:42:44 am by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #79 on: April 07, 2010, 05:08:40 am »
Hi! Radio controlled Z/Fugaku flying model. It's 1/15 scale model. (Cooperator: Fuji Heavy Industries ;))
http://www.nextftp.com/ty2/plink12.htm
http://sky.geocities.jp/fukiagerc/ivent_syokai/2009_5_2ivent/fugakuwo_tobasou.html
The nose is very similar to G5N Shinzan ! :)
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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #80 on: April 07, 2010, 05:21:11 am »
Yes I think so.

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #81 on: April 07, 2010, 11:58:19 am »
Its a nice piece of work this RC model but it has some G5N Lizzy features,but nevertheless its a huge and beautiful RC plane!

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #82 on: April 08, 2010, 07:50:49 am »
Hi! Chikuhei's dream. The ultimate Fugaku and Fugaku. And TB.
I believe that the ultimate Fugaku died at the biginning of Fugaku committee, because it was too costly and too risky.
Source: Internet site.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2010, 03:20:44 pm by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #83 on: April 08, 2010, 01:15:30 pm »
blackkite-san,

The second picture of the unfolded paper is incorrect about the labeling of the aircraft at the bottom below the G10N. The paper says (from left to right) Shinryu, Baika, and Ki-98. It should be: Ki-98, Shinryu, and Baika.  :o
Frank

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #84 on: April 08, 2010, 01:19:29 pm »
Hi Blackkite san nice drawings you send again! the photo with the fugaku and the little X planes is from a plastic kid and a completed model is shown on a Japanese site about plastic model kid.
Its truly a aw some model I must say!

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #85 on: April 10, 2010, 06:18:05 pm »
 From "富嶽(FUGAKU)" ,Author:Maema Takanori(前間孝則)/Yoshiro Ikari(碇義朗),  No.(3)

Chikuhei thought these variants from Z long range bomber.
1. B-36 interception gun ship variant, which had 96× 20mm cannons. Chikuhei thought only 10 gun  
   ships could destroy 500 flying  formation of B-36.(Chikuhei called B-36 as six engined bomber.)
2. Anti ship variant, which had 400×7.7mm guns, which operated combined with long range    
   bomber with 20 ton bomb and torpedo bomber with 20 ×1 ton torpedo.  
3.Cargo variant.
Chikuhei hoped following armed forces to assault the United States. (Targets were iron/ aluminum/oil industries  
 and cities.) ①Z long range bombers:4,000 ②Z gun ships:2,000 ③Z cargo variants:5,000 ④Soldiers:3,000,000
Iwao Shibuya(渋谷巌) designed flexible Z-plane wing prior to B-47 and B-52, wing tip deflection was 1.3m in take off.
Minoru Ohta(太田稔) designed undercarriage of Z-plane, which had four tires, diameter of tire was 2.5m breadth was 0.5m and each weight was 1ton. Two tires were dropped after take off. He did not realize the possibility of multiple  tire undercarriage.    
« Last Edit: April 11, 2010, 01:40:11 am by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #86 on: April 11, 2010, 05:19:30 am »
Shoda Creative Co.Ltd, Gunma Japan has a 1/20 scale Z-model.
Source:Japanese secret weapons collection, TAKARAJIMA SHA,Tokyo,Japan ISBN978-4-7966-6366-3 C9431 

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #87 on: April 11, 2010, 01:06:34 pm »
Wow! these pics are very impressive Blackkite San! especially the photos of the model Zplane is very interesting.
It looks like wind tunnel models of this bomber.
Thanks again for sharing these pics with us! the book cover pic depicts in my eyes a version a very pimped version of G8N Renzan .I think this is a Nakajima design proposal

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #88 on: April 14, 2010, 07:13:04 am »
From "富嶽(FUGAKU)" ,Author:Maema Takanori(前間孝則)/Yoshiro Ikari(碇義朗),  No.(4)

Prior to the basic design activity of Z-plane, Chikuhei explained the idea of super large bomber which could bomb the United States from Japan, to the prime minister Hideki Tojo(東条英機) in 23th of April 1943. Hideki Tojo asked Chikuhei to show the drawing of large bomber.(He was a Air Enthusiast,too ;D. His son is Teruo Tojo(東条輝夫),the designer of YS-11. ). BTW Chikuhei did not have the design of super large bomber, only said “We can do it”. Chikuhei also explained this idea to the IJA aviation head office in 26th of April in 1943. After completion of Z-plane basic design, Chikuhei wrote “Winning game plan” ,finished in 8th of  August in 1943, explained to IJA, IJN and Takamatsunomiya(高松宮),brother of emperor Hirohito(裕仁),etc. Finally emperor Hirohito knew this plan.
Following drawings are from internet site.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2010, 07:41:49 am by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #89 on: April 15, 2010, 09:55:11 am »
Fantastic images !  :o :o  B)
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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #90 on: April 15, 2010, 12:20:26 pm »
I have noticed that several G10N drawings and reconstructions, such as Blackkite's, seem very derivative of the B-29 to the extent that were someone ignorant of the Fugaku program would say they were some sort of 6-engined B-29 program.   Are these accurate views of the Fugaku concept, or did someone in the postwar era use the B-29 as a template in producing drawings and plans?

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #91 on: April 16, 2010, 05:56:43 am »
Fugaku's nose was more clean than B-29's nose. Japan already knew the shape of B-29 when designed Fugaku. These drawings are almost same scale. B-29's fuselage diameter is about 2.6m,Fugaku's fuselage diameter was about 4m.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2010, 06:39:35 pm by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #92 on: April 16, 2010, 07:56:52 am »
So, about G10N and B-29, so Me-264 have a nose that reminds B-29 , could be not really strange if nose of G10N reminds  B-29 !  :)
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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #93 on: April 16, 2010, 09:40:47 am »
royabulgaf,

About your question of the similarities of the G10N to the B-29 - Earlier in this thread, I had this exchange with Blackkite:

Windswords:

"I have always wondered about this. Some drawings of G10N show traditional cockpit and others look like the B-29. Is that a fact that a B-29 style cockpit is someones post war imagination of what might have been?"


Blackkite:

"Hi windswords-san! I don’t think so, because there is a Fugaku drawing in my No.2 bible which has the   B-29 type cabin. My No.2 bible was made by all Japan line up.(Tadashi Nozawa, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Kawasaki Heavy Industries, Fuji Heavy Industries, etc)
It might be true that all of Fugaku’s drawings were burned out and we can’t see the official blue print of Fugaklu. But It’s impossible to erase memory of engineers who engaged in Fugaku project. They must be remember the detail of Fugaku’s data very clearly. This is the reason why I believe Fugaku’s B-29 style cabin is true."
Frank

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #94 on: April 16, 2010, 07:15:53 pm »
Thanks windswords! ;)
Fugaku v.s B-29 and B-36. Almost same scale. Enjoy.
In Fugaku v.s B-36, Fugaku's length become about 5% small. Sorry.
Fugaku's wing span:63m, B-36's wing span:70.1m.
Fugaku's length:42m, B-36's length:49.4m
« Last Edit: April 17, 2010, 04:04:03 pm by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #95 on: April 17, 2010, 11:03:27 pm »
Hi! Brief history of Z and Fugaku.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2010, 08:06:01 am by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #96 on: April 18, 2010, 01:04:37 pm »
Fugaku's nose was more clean than B-29's nose. Japan already knew the shape of B-29 when designed Fugaku. These drawings are almost same scale. B-29's fuselage diameter is about 2.6m,Fugaku's fuselage diameter was about 4m.
Hi Blackkite San I totally agree with you that the nose of Fugaku has nicer and cleaner lines than the nose of B-29!
The whole aircraft is of a better aerodynamically design than the fuselage of B-29 although the B-29 is a beautiful aircraft too.
But the lines of the B-29 are with its more knotted wings and flatter nose,make the plane more air resistand than the Fugaku .thats my vieuw on this matter

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #97 on: April 18, 2010, 03:19:44 pm »
Hi T-50 san. We are looking forward your new Fugaku model. ;)

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #98 on: April 19, 2010, 09:20:22 am »
Hi Blackkite San I'm now making the drawings of my new model,before Ill cut the first wooden part.
Ill inform you when I made progress.
Do you know were the Z bomber was going to build? were there new factories planned? and are they underground factories? for example.
I'm very curious if there is some info about this

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #99 on: April 20, 2010, 06:28:47 am »
Fugaku's assembly plant was located near Nakajima aircraft research institute near Chofu airport Mitaka Tokyo. You can see the assembly factory with large opening upper side of the picture. Large plants located middle of the picture were Nakajima aircraft experimental aircraft manufacturing plant.
There were IJA experimental aircraft design department and HA54 engine design department in Mitaka research institute.
Last picture was Nakajima Aircraft Musashi engine plant, most important target for B-29s.
Of course Chikuhei had the plan for large scale production plants for Fugaku. They were ten plants(each plant had 30,000 workers) for the aircrafts and seven plants(each plant had 20,000 workers) for the engines.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2010, 07:19:14 am by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #100 on: April 20, 2010, 12:39:03 pm »
Hi Blackkite San thanks for these very interesting photos! Like the B-29 production line the Fugaku would build by separate factories.I assume they planned to work with sub contractors,for example with Mitsubishi or Kawasaki to produce parts for this huge bomber.
best regards T-50

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #101 on: April 22, 2010, 05:11:57 am »
From "富嶽(FUGAKU)" ,Author:Maema Takanori(前間孝則)/Yoshiro Ikari(碇義朗),  No.(5)

In 9th of August 1943, the IJA and the  IJN aviation technology committee was established to develop new aircrafts effectively. In September 1943, in the meeting of this committee, there was a discussion about Z-plane. Many positive and negative opinions were offered from the IJA and the IJN, finally Z-plane was selected as the IJA and the IJN joint research program same as following planes Ki-87, Ki-90, Ki-91, Ki-94, Ki-95, Ki-99, Ki-101 and Renzan. (Fugaku was a special treatment.) In this committee, Experimental Fugaku committee was established, members were from IJA  No.1 aviation research institute, No.1 to No.8 aviation technology research institute,  
IJN Kugisho engine department, Tokyo imperial university aviation research institute, Central Aviation research institute, Nakajima, Mitsubishi, Sumitomo metal, etc. Project manager was Nario Ando from IJA No1. Aviation research institute. The meeting of Fugaku committee held once per month. BTW the IJA and IJN's stance for Fugaku was not so eager, especially IJA because they already experienced Shinzan's failure. Substantial technical leader was Satoshi Koyama. Fugaku design team was located in Koizumi factory of Nakajima aircraft consisted of several ten engineers.
They worked very hard, did not had enough time for lunch and hand wash, looked at a slide rule every day to calculate fuel consumption utilizing jet stream in various conditions.
HA54 design team was located second floor of Mitaka research institute of Nakajima Aircraft, consist of 50 engineers,finally 200 engineers. Chief engineer Tanaka said that the design activity of HA54 went smooth although HA54 was a very complicated engine.
The report which offered the meeting in April 1944 did not include the explanation for turbo super charger , because it was still unstable to work, need more technical study, engineer Toda said after the war.

Please watch the picture of Nakajima Aircraft's Ohta factory and Koizumi factory under the bombing by B-29 in winter day.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 07:54:49 am by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #102 on: April 26, 2010, 06:36:14 am »
This is the drawing which carried in Japanese “Mach club” 's magazine Soku(蒼空,the blue sky) in some year from 1965 to 1974 as Fugaku G10N1. Source was Japanese aviation authority, doctor of engineering. Nakajima's engineers said that they did not consider such a wing,because it's hard to manufacture. Fake or private venture. ;D
Source: Giant aircraft story,Minoru Akimoto, KOJINSHA TOKYO,2002, ISBN4-7698-2359-2 C0195  
« Last Edit: April 26, 2010, 03:36:31 pm by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #103 on: April 27, 2010, 07:10:36 am »
The engineer who engaged in Fugaku project said that "the Fugaku had a slanting cocoon type pressurized cabin located front end of the aircraft, Fugaku's nose had no step!" At the beginning of the Fugaku project, there was a plan to had a stepped nose, BTW the person in charge rejected this plan saying “It's bad. It's like a Japanese spaniel sneezing.” It must be a Shinzan style cabin. ;D
Source:following site.
http://www.warbirds.jp/kakuki/kaksasie/hon/hon_fugaku.htm
« Last Edit: April 27, 2010, 03:34:56 pm by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #104 on: April 28, 2010, 06:47:34 am »
I believed that HA54 engine had contra rotating propellers, but in this Nakajima's official drawing ,we see single propeller. Finally HA54 had a single propeller?
This HA54 drawing shows that it had a mechanical super charger. If HA54 had turbo super chargers, it became very long engine, because of big inter cooler,big turbo super charger and complex piping.
中間冷却器 means inter cooler, 過給器 means super charger, 排気 means exhaust gas, タービン means turbine.
排気タービン過給器 means turbo super charger. 機械式過給器 means mechanical super charger.           
« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 07:27:31 am by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #105 on: April 28, 2010, 01:53:26 pm »
blackkite thanks for drawings : they explain very well the various types of super chargers ,especially of Ha-254 !  :)
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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #106 on: May 08, 2010, 06:25:10 am »
Hi! I find another drawing of Fugaku.
We see the concept of slanting cocoon type pressurized cabin located front end of the aircraft.
Source:The IJA military aircraft perfect guide from 1910 to 1945. Gakken, January,2005. ISBN4-05-603757-4 C9421

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #107 on: May 08, 2010, 07:17:49 am »
Hi! I find another drawing of Fugaku.
We see the concept of slanting cocoon type pressurized cabin located front end of the aircraft.
Source:The IJA military aircraft perfect guide from 1910 to 1945. Gakken, January,2005. ISBN4-05-603757-4 C9421

nice drawing !  :)
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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #108 on: May 08, 2010, 04:09:59 pm »
Hi Z-OHTA. We see very large under carridge cover under the wing.
Source:「幻の新鋭機,Illusion of new aircraft」,Kojinsha,Toshihiko Ogawa, ISBN4-7698-2142-5 C0195.

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #109 on: May 08, 2010, 07:27:05 pm »
Blackkite-san,

I see this is the twin tail design. Was this an early design or a later design? Or was the twin tail and single tail worked on at the same time by two different design teams?

Frank

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #110 on: May 08, 2010, 07:34:08 pm »
Hi windswords-san! I am sorry I confused you very much. ;D Z means very early design. Please watch No1 page of this topic.

 From "富嶽(FUGAKU)" ,Author:Maema Takanori(前間孝則)/Yoshiro Ikari(碇義朗),  No.(6)

In fall of 1943, there were four plans which could bombing the United States. They were Nakajima
Z-plane, Kawanishi TB, Kawasaki Ki-91 and Tachikawa Ki-74Ⅱ, the IJA and the IJN confused very much. Finally the IJA and IJN Aviation technology committee asked Chikuhei Nakajima  to be the chairman of Fugaku committee  in 24th of November 1943. In 26th of January 1944, the IJN  
held the meeting to compare with Fugaku and TB. The specifications of Fugaku and TB were
as follows.(Source:Ministry of Defense official documents)  The IJA held same meeting in 27th of January.

[Fugaku]: Wing span:61m, Wing area:310m2, Range:18,500km with 5ton bomb, Service ceiling:15,000m, Armament:13mm gun×1, 20mm cannon×3, Max speed:700km/h(15,000m), MTOW:116ton, Takeoff run:1,500m, Engine:Nakajima modified six HA219(HA44) ,2340hp in 15,000m.

[TB]: Wing span:52.5m, Wing area:220m2, Range:23,700km with 2ton bomb, Service ceiling:12,000m, Crew:6, Armament:13mm gun×4, Max speed:600km/h(12,000m), MTOW:74ton, Takeoff run:1,900m, Engine:Perhaps Mitsubishi modified four HA214(HA42) or HA211(HA43).
« Last Edit: May 09, 2010, 03:42:24 am by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #111 on: May 09, 2010, 06:17:27 am »
From "富嶽(FUGAKU)" ,Author:Maema Takanori(前間孝則)/Yoshiro Ikari(碇義朗),  No.(7)

From January 1944, almost all design managers of Nakajima Aircraft concentrated Fugaku design in parallel with other aircraft design for example Renzan design. The Fugaku design team were consisted of 200 engineers including Mitsubishi and Kawasaki's engineers, 40% engineers were from the IJA and the IJN's aviation technology institute, worked as computers.   
In the middle of March 1944, the IJA and IJN joint meeting was held to compare with Fugaku, TB and Ki-74Ⅱ. Finally Fugaku was selected as the United States bombing aircraft, settled following two plans. HA54 engine was judged too risky. But Nakajima Aircraft kept development of HA54.

[The first plan] Wing area:330m2, Range:18,200km with 10ton bomb, 21,200km with 5ton bomb,Service ceiling:15,000m, Armament:20mm cannon×24, Max speed:640km/h(12,000m), MTOW:122ton, Takeoff run:1,700m, Engine:Nakajima modified six HA219(HA44) ,2500hp in take off, 2,050hp in 7,000~15,000m. Take off run:1,700m. Wing loading:370kg/m2

[The second plan] Wing area:330m2, Range:16,500km with 10ton bomb, 19,400km with 5ton bomb,Service ceiling:15,000m, Armament:20mm cannon×24, Max speed:700km/h(12,000m), MTOW:122ton, Takeoff run:1,200m, Engine:Mitsubishi six HA50, 3300hp in take off, 2,370hp in 10,400m. Take off run:1,200m. Wing loading:370kg/m2       

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #112 on: May 15, 2010, 04:42:30 am »
From "富嶽(FUGAKU)" ,Author:Maema Takanori(前間孝則)/Yoshiro Ikari(碇義朗), Final

Chikuhei Nakajima wanted to proceed Fugaku project in parallel with development and preparation  for mass production, but IJA and IJN thought to realize only prototype at the first stage. Fugaku's four main tire's diameter was 1.9m, breadth was 0.5m, inner two tires were dropped after take off. Fugaku had remote controlled turrets to prevent air leak from penetration of cannons and gaps between rotating turrets and fuselage if turrets were installed directly to the pressurized cabin. After fall of Saipan island, Prime minister Tojo retired, Fugaku lost a supporter. In August 1944, Vice Admiral Endoh ordered Nakajima Aircraft to stop Fugaku project. He said to Satoshi Koyama that “Stop Fugaku design or you will be send to Manshu or the southern hard front.” Endoh wanted more fighters. All Nakajima's engineers who engaged in Fugaku project disappointed very much. They think Fugaku was possible to realize. (Turbo supercharger was already realized by Ki-46Ⅳ, pressurized cabin was realized by Ki-74, remote controlled turret was studied for Aichi Denko.) BTW Nakajima aircraft's all elite engineers did not think Japan could win the pacific war, because they knew the ability of the United States very much through studying their aviation technology, said what a fool the IJA and IJN were. Also some American aviation engineers knew the ability of Nakajima aircraft very much because they taught NaKajima aircraft's engineers in Japan before the Pacific war. After the Fugaku project, Nakajima aircraft began to design Ki-115 Tsurugi(剣,the Japanese sord) and Kitsuka(橘花) special attack aircraft.       
« Last Edit: May 16, 2010, 06:31:52 am by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #113 on: May 15, 2010, 05:57:56 am »
This transparency is not the original Nakajima's design, because Fugaku did not have such a elegant undercarriage. The engineer who designed Fugaku undercarriage said that he could not think multiple tire undercarriage. Fugaku's undercarriage's total number of tires were 4 and 2 were dropped after take off. Fugaku's undercarriage were retracted to the engine nacelles.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2010, 06:05:44 am by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #114 on: May 15, 2010, 09:28:09 am »
This transparency is not the original Nakajima's design, because Fugaku did not have such a elegant undercarriage. The engineer who designed Fugaku undercarriage said that he could not think multiple tire undercarriage. Fugaku's undercarriage's total number of tires were 4 and 2 were dropped after take off. Fugaku's undercarriage were retracted to the engine nacelles.
Really interesting : but how many cannons as defensive armament was planned ?
In picture i have seen 7 cannons
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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #115 on: May 15, 2010, 01:33:00 pm »
Hi airman! Very good question! You understand Fugaku very much. Turrets of this drawing are strange,too. Because they are not remote controlled one. It's difficult to prevent air leak. Number and location of armament is the big question for me,too. I will study. I believe the armament of Fugaku were not heavy, because Fugaku's service ceiling was 15,000m with light armament according to the IJN's request.
The IJA's request was heavy armament with service ceiling 10,000m.

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #116 on: May 15, 2010, 07:10:50 pm »
Hi! Nakajima final Z-plane. Chikuhei Nakajima's "Winning game plan(必勝戦策, in 1943)" included the drawing of this plane. It had a stepped nose.
This R/C model is 1/15 scale model. Z-plane's wing span was 65m, so this model's wing span is 4.333m.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2010, 07:41:56 pm by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #117 on: May 16, 2010, 12:29:09 pm »
Hi Blackkite San very nice pics of this beautiful RC model of the fugaku,I know there are some people who build a very big RC model of the B-29.
Bet there are a lot of servo engine to control this beautiful beast!

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #118 on: May 16, 2010, 02:50:34 pm »
Hi T-50 san! B-36,too.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2010, 04:47:08 am by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #119 on: May 17, 2010, 01:11:35 pm »
Hi Blackkite San I must say a nice RC model of the Convair B-36 Piecemaker,I understand the Fugaku design planned by Nakajima has the same body length as the B-36.
It must become  the biggest bomber of WW2 if it was build, the RC model of the Fugaku is in my eyes the most rare and special model I have ever seen! very different than the P-51 or spitfire have seen a thousand of them!

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #120 on: May 19, 2010, 07:57:59 am »
Hi! Fugaku v.s Renzan.
Fugaku was Renzan's brother. Renzan was ordered to develop in December 1942 and the first flight was October 1944. Nakajima Aircraft developed Renzan in parallel with Fugaku.
Renzan's engine were Nakajima Homare(2,000hp in take off), with turbo supercharger and forced cooling fan. I believe Fugaku's engine nacelle shape was similar to Renzan, and Fugaku's turbo supercharged HA44 engine(2,500hp in take off) had forced cooling fan to reduce drug same as Raiden, Renzan and Ki-94Ⅱ.
Engine nacelle size of Fugaku's drawing seems to be little small. Renzan's engine nacelle shape was similar to B-29's. All air intakes(engine cooling air, air to oil cooler, air to supercharger and air to intercooler) were located front end of the engine nacelle. Although the design was based on captured B-17. B-17's air intakes to supercharger and intercooler were located wing leading edge.
Vertical tail stabilizer shape of Renzan were similar to Z and Fugaku.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 04:40:17 am by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #121 on: May 19, 2010, 09:22:43 am »
Well, about  G8N Renzan  we know more than G10N : was planned a construction of 64 prototypes for 1945.
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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #122 on: May 22, 2010, 06:34:02 am »
Hi! I made a table which compare the armaments of Japanese and American WWⅡheavy bombers.
B-36's armament were very heavy and retractable, Fugaku's armament were very light to fly 15,000m with high speed. There are some documents to describe that Fugaku's number of armaments were 24. BTW it's apparently mistake, too heavy armament.

When I checked B-36, I found some interesting facts.
1.At first XB-36 had single tire undercarriage which diameter was 2.79m while Fugaku's tire diameter was 1.9m and double.
2.R4360 engine's turbo supercharger and intercooler were located before the engine, very stout engine nacelle. R4360 also had the mechanical supercharger.
3.B-36 had remote controlled retractable turrets.
Chikuhei Nakajima feared B-36 very much, and thought that B-36 was the rival of Fugaku.
Source:FAMOUS AIRPLANES OF THE WORLD, CONVAIR B-36 PEACEMAKER, BUNRINDO TOKYO
« Last Edit: May 22, 2010, 02:58:16 pm by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #123 on: May 26, 2010, 05:59:21 am »
Hi! I found two Fugaku armament plans. No.1 plan is in my No.2 bible.
No.2 plan is in “The IJA military aircraft perfect guide from 1910 to 1945. Gakken ”.
These two plans also have four 20mm cannons. Two plans have little strange part.
No.1 plan has no half spherical small windows for remote controlled turrets.
No.2 plan has half spherical small windows for upper and lower turrets, but each turret has bird cage like flame same as manned turret.
Except the armament, two drawings are different in various parts, they are cabin, wing, engine and vertical stabilizer.
I think No.2 plan's engine nacelle length is little short to accommodate turbo supercharger, but fuselage middle pressurized part volume is small and proper.
No.1 plan's vertical tail stabilizer shape is similar to Renzan's ,P-3C's and P-2V's one, and have a good fairing for low drag.
No.1 plan's wing is similar to Renzan. ;D
« Last Edit: May 28, 2010, 04:39:56 am by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #124 on: May 28, 2010, 04:50:46 pm »
Hi! Little strange Fugaku No.3 armaments plan and No.1 armaments plan. ;D
The gunners wore oxygen mask when suffering enemy attack same as Mt.Everest attack?
Or IJN thought that the armaments were not necessary because Fugaku's service ceiling was very high(15,000m), armaments were necessary for low altitude condition.
Source: Net.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2010, 09:51:14 pm by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #125 on: May 29, 2010, 03:03:05 am »
blackkite,

That looks like an interesting modeler's meeting/convention with a fair amount of Luftwaffe' 46 and other project aircraft. Would like to know more about especially if there was website which covered the event.

Thanks!
« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 06:11:27 am by amsci99 »

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« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 04:56:00 am by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #127 on: May 29, 2010, 06:12:02 am »
Thank you very much, blackkite.

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #128 on: June 01, 2010, 06:47:39 am »
Hi! The cocoon type Ki-74 pressurized cabin.

Ki-74 Specification
Overall length:17.65m, Height:5.10m, Wing span:27.00m, Wing area:80.00m2, Empty weight:10,200kg,
MTOW:19,400kg, Max speed:570km/h(@8,500m), Service ceiling:12,000m, Range:7,200km over, Engine:Mitsubishi HA104 LU 18 Cylinders 1800hp at take off, Crew:5, Armament:12.7mm gun×1、250kg bomb×4
Source:The IJA and IJN bombers and attack aircrafts, 1930 to 1945, BUNRINDO,2007/9/25,  ISBN978-4-89319-155-7 C9453
« Last Edit: June 01, 2010, 06:53:59 am by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #129 on: June 01, 2010, 01:26:40 pm »
Hi Blackkite San very nice Ki-74 drawings! ,saw on one of these drawings the Japanese copy of the norten bombsight.
This device was planned for the Ki-74?

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #130 on: June 01, 2010, 03:31:04 pm »
Hi T-50 san. You are very sharp eyed! It's exactly Japanese copied Norden bombsight for Ki-74.
IJN thought to use Ki 74 as the one way ticket American bomber.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2010, 04:17:31 am by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #131 on: June 02, 2010, 07:17:37 am »
Another iteration Ki 74 (less known IMHO)
...from "The XPlanes Of Imperial Japanese Army & Navy 1924-45"

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #132 on: June 02, 2010, 07:34:47 am »
Oh! Thanks. It's Ki-74 Ⅱ, planned in 1944 as a pure bomber. Range was 7,000km with 2ton bomb.
Cockpit was side by side arrangement to reduce volume of pressurized area and increase reliability.
This project proceeded until mock up examination stage, terminated by B-29 bombing.
(From Japanese text of this bomber's drawing.)
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 04:20:10 am by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #133 on: June 02, 2010, 02:34:32 pm »
Blackkite-san,

Your diagram of the interior crew positions of the Ki-74 show the crewman behind the pilot facing forward as one would expect for a co-pilot (as in the Boeing B-47 bomber). However this crewman could not see in front of him since the canopy was not entirely glazed as in traditional aircraft. Also a model site I found with pictures of the cockpit details shows the position behind the pilot facing backwards, not forwards.

Was the seat behind the pilot able to rotate to face either direction? Or is the model's cockpit layout incorrect?

Please see:

cockpit build of Ki-74 by AV models:
http://matever.com/archives/ct02making/_74av_model_1723.html#more

finished build of Ki-74 by AV Models:
http://matever.com/archives/ct01complete/_74av_model_172.html#more

Added bonus, photo of the inside of the Ki-74 cockpit:
http://www.colesaircraft.com/1-10-Ki74.html
« Last Edit: June 02, 2010, 02:36:18 pm by windswords »
Frank

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #134 on: June 02, 2010, 03:22:43 pm »
Hi windswords-san! Thank you very much for very detailed model pictures and real Ki74 pictures.
OK I will try to answer your questions. I think Ki74 is one of the key to solve Fugaku mystery.
Explanation of drawing are as follows.
①Bomb Aimer ②Pilot ③Co-Pilot ④Radio Operater ⑤Air Gunner ⑥Pressure tight bulkhead ⑩Bomb sight ⑪Tail gun(remote controlled)
We can see control rod for co-pilot in the drawing, although co-pilot could not see forward direction. Strange. ;D
I can't find any other information of cabin arrangement in Japanese books including my No1/No2 bible.
I think that the seat for co-pilot could rotate, because there were cabin rear windows which had good view for fighter attack warning.

Fugaku's crews were six. I think they were ①bomb aimer/navigator ②pilot ③Co-pilot/air gunner ④Radio operater/air gunner ⑤Flight engineer/air gunner ⑥tail air gunner.  Strange?  
There is a opinion that Fugaku had a slanting tube from cabin to after pressurized part.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 02:44:58 pm by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #135 on: June 03, 2010, 11:28:05 am »
Blackkite-san,

Thank you for translating your cutaway view of the Ki-74. I have my doubts that the second seat in the cockpit was for a co-pilot. Perhaps he was in actuality a relief pilot. Since the Ki-74 had such a long range maybe the the pilots would exchange seats (they could move back and forth on the right side of the fuselage since the cockpit was offset to the left side).

I guessed that number 6 was the pressure bulkhead. The gunner must have had some sort of optical sighting system to aim the guns.

I wonder why there are windows on the underside after the bomb bay? The diagram shows that they lie outside of the pressurized bulkhead so they would could not be looked out of during high altitude flight.
Frank

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #136 on: June 03, 2010, 02:09:54 pm »
I wonder why there are windows on the underside after the bomb bay? The diagram shows that they lie outside of the pressurized bulkhead so they would could not be looked out of during high altitude flight.
Hi! Windswords-san, thank you very much. I understand that the seat behind the pilot was for relief pilot. Yes the mission time of Ki-74 was very long, almost one day. Fugaku was almost two days!
I think Windows on the underside after the bomb bay were for remote controlled camera. If so windows were too large?
Ki-74 also had the reconnaissance role.
Ki-74 performed Saipan island reconnaissance, and planned to attack Saipan B-29 base in September 1945.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 03:39:19 pm by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #137 on: June 03, 2010, 06:48:34 pm »
Blackkite-san,

Yes, that makes sense that the large size and number of windows on the lower aft side were for cameras. They would not have to be kept within the pressurized compartment.
Frank

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #138 on: June 04, 2010, 01:50:06 am »
-Ki-74 variants
same source
« Last Edit: June 05, 2010, 06:14:23 am by borovik »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #139 on: June 04, 2010, 06:45:38 am »
I see that the bottom version has a longer canopy than top one. Can anyone translate the two inscriptions?
Frank

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #140 on: June 04, 2010, 08:23:07 am »
Many thanks borovik-san! ;)
ヤ号機(Yago-ki) was a No.2  Ki-74 completed in 1944/8/2, which objective was Japan to Germany non stop direct friendliness flight follow on the failure of the  A-26 direct flight. Engines were HA-211 without turbo supercharger (1,980 hp at 5,000m) same as No.1 plane. Range was 12,000km,cruising speed was 270km/h. The bomb bay contained extra fuel tank instead of the bomb. Cabin was located center line of the fuselage. The direct flight was not performed due to the surrender of Germany. From No.3 plane to No.14 plane, cabin was located left side of the fuselage. 14 Ki-74s were built.(3 planes were built in 1944, 11 planes were built in 1945.)
Source: My No.2 bible.    
« Last Edit: June 05, 2010, 02:40:09 pm by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #141 on: June 06, 2010, 02:30:47 am »
Hi! FUGAKU v.s.Ki-74 and Ki-74Ⅱ. And B-29 crew.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2010, 06:38:12 am by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #142 on: June 09, 2010, 05:45:40 am »
Hi! Some hints for Fugaku mystery from B-29.
爆撃手:Bomb Aimer, 席:Seat, 操縦士:Pilot, 副操縦士:co-pilot, 機関士:Flight Engineer,
航法士:Navigator, 無線士:Radio Operator, 連絡トンネル:Crew tunnel,  機銃士:Gunner,
照準器:Gun Sight,
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 06:35:50 am by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #143 on: June 09, 2010, 05:50:09 am »
Hi! Pressurized tail turret. Guns did not penetrate pressurized area.
SOURCE:FAMOUS AIRCRAFT OF THE WORLD, BOEING B-29, BUNRINDO, ISBN4-89319-049-0 C9453
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 05:57:50 am by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #144 on: June 09, 2010, 06:02:02 am »
Hi! B-29'cabin, crew tunnel connected cabin with middle pressurized area, tail turret front pressure bulkhead door and turret.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 06:06:44 am by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #145 on: June 15, 2010, 12:47:59 pm »
Hi Blackkite San did you know if there was a bomberversion of the Ki-77?
I hope so because this aircraft possess the capacity to strike over far distances!

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #146 on: June 15, 2010, 01:52:54 pm »
Was there not a dedicated bomber version of the Ki-74 that would fulfill the long range bomber role?

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #147 on: June 15, 2010, 03:40:42 pm »
Hi! I don't think that Ki-77 had a bomber project, because it had no pressurized cabin and the engine power was poor.
Basically Ki-74 was a reconnaissance bomber. Ki-74 Ⅱwas a pure bomber.
I am drawing Fugaku 3 side view, it takes little long time for me. Please wait. (Of course hand craft). ;D

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #148 on: June 18, 2010, 11:05:11 pm »
Hi! My guess for the main wing shape of Fugaku HA44 engine variant and HA50 engine variant.
Wing tip cut area was equal to wing root extension area. Fugaku's wing tip deflected 1.3m to upper direction in flight.
And which cabin do you like? ;D
Attached Fugaku colored plan view and side view are from Gakken book. If this plan view's wing span is 63m, the wing area is 330m2.
This drawing's wing shape and inner engine nacelle side shape which accommodate 1.9m diameter tire are good, but overall length is only 37m while real Fugaku overall length is 42m. Too short. And the length between main landing gear tires(length between left and light inner engine nacelles center line) is 7.8m. I think it's too short.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2010, 02:53:53 am by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #149 on: June 22, 2010, 06:30:31 am »
When trying to draw Fugaku 3-side view, I have some questions about Fugaku wing shape.
To answer these questions, I went to the National Institute for Defense Studies in Tokyo to check the original   “必勝戦策(winning game plan)” by Chikuhei Nakajima.
I could find the winning game plan which include 1/500 scale Z-plane 3-side view.
I found these facts through this 3-side view.
1.Z-plane's wing dihedral 3.5° was determined by the wing upper surface. The dihedral was about 5° when determined by the maximum wing chord position.
2.Z-plane's main wheels diameter was about 1.3m where Fugaku's main wheels diameter was 1.9m.
3.Z-plane's main wheels were retracted forward direction.
4.Z-plane's wing tip thickness was thin.
5.Z-plane's wing had the leading edge slat.

My No.2 Bible's Fugaku 3-side view is not reliable, because it's wing area was too large.(over 400m2 where real wing area was 330m2.)
 
I ordered the copy of the winning game plan, I will get it in 2 or 3 weeks.    
« Last Edit: June 22, 2010, 06:33:18 am by blackkite »

Offline moin1900

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #150 on: June 27, 2010, 06:01:17 am »
Hi everybody
Fugaku with jet engines. Enjoy !
http://www.chinesewwii.net/vbb38/showthread.php?t=24225

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #151 on: June 28, 2010, 03:33:47 pm »
Thanks! Fugaku HA44 variant with Mitsubishi turbo jet engine is very impressive. BTW I have never read about the plan Fugaku with turbo jet engines. This drawing shows non pressurized cabin.  Main landing gear tires diameter were little small for me compared with ground crews, I believe that Fugaku main tire diameter was 1.9m. Japanese text says that propellers diameter was 4.5m while my guess was 4m because Ki-94Ⅱhigh altitude fighter's propeller diameter was 4m which engine was forced cooling turbo supercharged HA44 engine. I can't find the dimension of this aircraft and source of this drawing in Japanese text.
The inner engine nacelle's shape is good. Same as YS-11.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2010, 03:22:52 am by blackkite »

Offline airman

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #152 on: June 28, 2010, 04:14:40 pm »
writers , bloggers , content-curators ,  music composer and passionate of militaria and uchronia

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #153 on: July 03, 2010, 03:32:57 am »
Recently I get nice 3-side view and picture of Fugaku HA44 variant. Please enjoy beautiful Fugaku and beautiful Mt.Fuji.
This 3-side view's specification is as follows.(Fugaku final plan) I think this 3-side view is so so. The arms are little different from our understanding. It's true that tere is a opinion to state following Fugaku specification.
Wing span:61m, Length;39m, MTOW;111t, wing area;310m2, Engine;HA44(HA219), Max speed;684km/h(15,000m)/642km/h(12,000m)/684km/h(9,000m), Bomb;5ton, Range;18,070km-21,440km  
Source:Gakken Rekishi Gunzo No88.(歴史群像 No88,学習研究社).2008/4
« Last Edit: July 03, 2010, 03:50:30 pm by blackkite »

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #154 on: July 03, 2010, 07:15:20 pm »
Hi Z-plane 3-side view and the chart of combat radius from "WINNING GAME PLAN by Chikuhei Nakajima".
The chart of combat radius did not include the effect of the jet stream, because the effect of the jetstream had not been discovered when drew this chart. Enjoy.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2010, 11:20:52 pm by blackkite »

Offline royabulgaf

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #155 on: July 03, 2010, 08:17:49 pm »
Interesting artwork on the double page.  By any chance did the artist do some Hasegawa kit boxes?

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #156 on: July 03, 2010, 11:17:09 pm »
Hi! The artist is Masao Satake.(佐竹政夫) Yes I believe he did some box arts of Hasegawa's aircraft models.
http://www.art-eagle.com/daizukan001.html
http://www.art-eagle.com/satake_sample.html
I modify Fugaku main wing shape again. How about my guess for Fugaku wing section? It's from Saiun's Nakajima K-series laminar flow wing designed by Yasuo Naito.
Tapered wing is very effective to reduce wing root bending moment due to lift force generated by the wing. Also wing fuel tank is very effective to reduce wing root bending moment.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2010, 12:30:59 am by blackkite »

Offline Hikoki1946

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #157 on: July 04, 2010, 10:41:04 am »
Slightly off topic but fun nonetheless, for those with a Playstation or Playstation II, in the U.S., Strikers 1945 II was released as Strikers 1945. The photo is of the promo for the Japanese Strikers 1945 II. At any rate, if you fly the Hayate in the game, its special attack is the Fugaku which has the bomber appearing on the screen, laying waste to the enemy. You can see the artist used the German inspired Fugaku version.

Cheers!  ;D

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #158 on: July 04, 2010, 03:04:09 pm »
Wow Ed! It seems to be Z-OHTA factory based German inspired FUGAKU. ;D

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #159 on: July 04, 2010, 03:38:46 pm »
It is beyond comprehension to me how you guys can still come up so regularly with new artwork on these projects... Are the Japanese that obsessed with not winning the war that they've devoted so much effort in recreating the Fugaku and Z projects in so many books? There seems to be no end to this... and at the same time, since much of it is largely speculative, there never seems to be twice exactly the same configuration... I must say I'm puzzled here!

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #160 on: July 04, 2010, 10:00:41 pm »
If we set the number of books about japanese WW II projets in relation to the number about
German projects, I think we come out with a ratio of at least 10 to 1, and most books about
german "mysteries" not even come from Germany anymore and that is puzzling me !
What I've seen so far in this thread, especially by blackkite is an attempt of a
reconstruction of a type, that in fact was designed, although quite few reliable
resources seem to have survived. And if institutions like the NIDS were contacted,
I would say: Congratulations for serious research ! That in the end, we probably will
never see an "ultimate" 3-view is a fate, the Fugaku shares with a lot of other projetcs.
Loosing a war always is a traumatic event, I think, may it be for Japan, for Germany, or for
the US in Vietnam, for the Soviet Union in Afghanistan or for France in Algeria, so perhaps we
should be indulgent to a certain extend for some nostalgia.  ;)
As long, as I'm not confronted here with "wonderweapons", that very nearly would have
turned the tide, as they were "decades ahead of their time", just to be stolen by the US, the
russians or whoever and now are stored in Area 51, or Semipalatinsk, or on the backside of the
moon, it's still ok for me.
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #161 on: July 05, 2010, 02:01:27 am »
As long, as I'm not confronted here with "wonderweapons", that very nearly would have
turned the tide, as they were "decades ahead of their time", just to be stolen by the US, the
russians or whoever and now are stored in Area 51, or Semipalatinsk, or on the backside of the
moon, it's still ok for me.

Yeah. You're getting my point here. What really bugs me most often in that type of thread is the "if it had been built, we would have won" kind of thing. And however much I LOVE unbuilt designs, I find that much too often the "1946" type reconstructions reek of fascination for the Nazi more than a real love of the machines themselves...

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #162 on: July 05, 2010, 03:25:42 am »
You nailed it !  ;) And we even had such discussions here, which to my opinion were more
influenced by the desire to prove the "superiority" of the German technology during WW II, than to
discuss an actual design. And so I thought it to be important to point out, that this thread seems to
be free of such attempts, but full of mentions of sources and a lot of work with making drawings,
comparisons and so on (although I cannot judge most of the sources by myself, of course. Often
I cannot even read a single word !  :D  ).
Would such methods be applied to quite a lot of those fancy German designs, I think many of them would
be deleted from most sources. 
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline Hikoki1946

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #163 on: July 05, 2010, 04:03:13 am »
I was interviewed concerning my book on Japanese x-planes and the question on if the planes, had they gotten into service, would have "turned the tide" came up and I said absolutely not. Prolonged the war? Perhaps. Won it? Not a chance. Most of the "what if" scenarios I've read which had merit all point to events happening very early on in the war and, in some cases, before it. Had events then gone differently, perhaps the outcome of the war would have changed. Once you got past 1940-1941, the final result (victory for the Allies) in most of the scenarios held true.



Yeah. You're getting my point here. What really bugs me most often in that type of thread is the "if it had been built, we would have won" kind of thing. And however much I LOVE unbuilt designs, I find that much too often the "1946" type reconstructions reek of fascination for the Nazi more than a real love of the machines themselves...

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #164 on: July 05, 2010, 06:38:59 am »
Hi! My objective is to construct consistent Fugaku configuration compared with all of the data from official documents, books, Fugaku engineer's testimony and aeronautical theory,etc.
When I went to the National Diet Library, I found the list which contains all of the document concerning Chikuhei Nakajima by Fuji Heavy Industries. There were many interesting documents such as Z-plane design documents, Renzan detail drawings and Saiun detail drawings.
But I can't find any document about Fugaku. FHI has no Fugaku document!
This means all of the design documents about Fugaku were under strict observation by IJA and IJN,
no one could take out any Fugaku design document from the design office. All of the documents were burned out same as H7Y1 flying boat. If GHQ discovered any Fugaku documents, Fugaku major designers would be the war criminal.Perhaps all Nakajima's  engineers who engaged Fugaku were ordered not to talk about Fugaku by Chikuhei Nakajima. Chikuhei Nakajima, Satoshi Koyama(chief designer), Masashi Tanaka(HA-54 designer), Ichiro Nakagawa(Homare engine designer) and Yasuo Naito(Aerodynamic engineer) did not talk about Fugaku at all even post war. I used to read that some Nakajima designer who engaged Fugaku project said that all of the Fugaku drawings in the world were mistake. I really think so. They are inconsistent compared with the data(wing area, length, etc) from the official documents. I believe we can grasp the shape of Fugaku wing which consistent compared with official document's data(wing area,span) and which has same aerodynamic characteristics(aspect ratio, taper ratio) compared with Z-plane's wing now. No doubt, we SPF is one of the front runner of Fugaku research. Where there is a will, there is a way. ;D

My next strategies for determination of Fugaku HA44 variant(most realistic Fugaku) shape are as follows.
1.To construct the shape of inner engine nacelle which contains 1.9m diameter tire considering wing structure, while the height  
   of Fugaku is 11.14m.(I found this data from Japanese Aireview Magazine in 1955. Z's height was  
   12m)
2.To construct fuselage shape considering following facts.
   ・Fuel consumption of Fugaku HA-44 variant was half as Z-plane because HA-54 was double
    HA-44, fuselage of Fugaku HA44 variant is small compared with Z-plane, because no fuselage  
    fuel tanks were needed. (Z-plane's wing tanks capacity were 57,200 L and fuselage tanks  
    capacity were 42,729L)
   ・The wing shape of Z-plane and Fugaku HA44 variant were almost same size, the position of the
    air center(25% wing chord) were almost same. But Fugaku HA-44 variant's engine weight is half
    of Z's engine weight, center of gravity moved backward. To cancel this effect, we need  
    lighter(shorter) back fuselage. (Z's length was 45m and Fugaku HA-44 variant's length was
   42m).    
« Last Edit: July 06, 2010, 03:01:49 pm by blackkite »

Offline lark

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #165 on: July 05, 2010, 12:19:05 pm »
Thanks for all the reseach you alreay have done Blackkite.
Keep up the good work..

Offline T-50

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #166 on: July 05, 2010, 12:33:12 pm »
Hi Blackkite again a nice technical drawing of the Fugaku I must say!,I saw on this drawing a radar dome within a parabolic or dish shaped radar probably in the 10cm waveband.
Were the Japanese really planned a dish shaped radar for the Fugaku?its really very modern for the early 40ies!
And if so was the radar system mended for navigation or also for bombing like the radar set of the B-29 did

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #167 on: July 06, 2010, 04:34:43 am »
Hi! I have never heard about Japanese navigation and bombing radar system. Concerning electric equipment, Japanese technologies at the day were no match for the Western level. Ten years delay. The engine technologies were 5 years delay.   

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #168 on: July 08, 2010, 08:50:24 am »
Hi! Landing gear arrangement of Fugaku HA-44 variant. I hope that my guess is almost right. Tire diameter is right. ;D
« Last Edit: July 10, 2010, 11:57:05 pm by blackkite »

Offline Nick Sumner

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #169 on: July 08, 2010, 10:33:39 am »
The engine technologies were 5 years delay.   

That may be true of jet engines but Japanese radials were as good as anyone else's. Overcoming the handicap of low octane fuel was no small feat and Japanese cowling design for radial engines was extremely good.

Offline Kevin Renner

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #170 on: July 10, 2010, 11:19:11 am »
The engine technologies were 5 years delay.   

That may be true of jet engines but Japanese radials were as good as anyone else's. Overcoming the handicap of low octane fuel was no small feat and Japanese cowling design for radial engines was extremely good.

Well, obtaining the right to build P&W designs pre war certainly didn't hurt.

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #171 on: July 15, 2010, 07:59:54 am »
To determine Fugaku's  horizontal tail stabilizer position, I checked Z-plane's  horizontal tail volume ratio VH'. Calculation result was 0.66 while generally VH' is 0.8 to 1.6.
Z-plane's  VH' was little small for stable flight. It's difficult to absorb 3m(Z's length 45m - Fugaku's length 42m) by the length between air center of main wing and air center of horizontal tail stabilizer(Lt'), I think Fugaku's Lt' and St(area of horizontal tail stabilizer) were almost same as Z's one. I want to move vertical tail stabilizer to forward(about 3m) for Fugaku's vertical tail stabilizer compared with Z-plane.

Vertical Tail Volume Ratio =Vv= (Vertical Tail Moment Arm/Main Wing Span)×
                                            (Vertical Tail Area/Main Wing Area)
                 Z's Vv=(24/65) ×(40/350)=0.042
                 Fugaku's Vv=((24-3)/63)×(40/330)=0.04
« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 07:01:25 am by blackkite »

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #172 on: July 22, 2010, 04:54:49 am »
Mt.Fuji in summertime. Sorry off topic.

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #173 on: August 03, 2010, 06:39:46 am »

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #174 on: October 04, 2010, 04:26:41 am »
Hi! My image for Fugaku HA44 valiant. Enjoy.
I modify fuselage width from 2.85m to 3.0m(measured from Nakajima Z drawing).
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 01:19:00 am by blackkite »

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #175 on: October 06, 2010, 05:25:56 am »
Hi! Z-plane vs Fugaku HA44 valiant(my guess). These drawings are almost same size.
I think Fugaku had a elliptical cross section fuselage same as Z-plane because it had a slanting cocoon type circular cross section pressurized cabin.

And Z-plane drawing from Winning Game Plan by Chikuhei Nakajima. It already applied area rule! ;D

I can't understand the meaning why Z-plane's propeller thrust lines were not parallel. Someone please show me the reason.
When landing, plane lean the wing to generate side force to control flying direction, but Fugaku had a very long span wing, it's very dangerous to lean the wing and generate side force using slanting engine power control?

Leading edge swept back angle and trailing edge forward swept angle of my guess for Fugaku wing are no problem. Fuselage center line of Z and Fugaku are not parallel.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 01:44:26 am by blackkite »

Offline Kugelblitz

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #176 on: October 09, 2010, 12:50:02 pm »
Sorry for being off topic, but this might be a good place to ask for a picture of a B-36 with armament "out". I´ve never seen one, not for want of searching!

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #177 on: October 09, 2010, 06:19:55 pm »
Hi! Enjoy.
Source:FAMOUS AIRPLANES OF THE WORLD CONVAIR B-36 PEACEMAKER. ;D BUNRINDO JAPAN; ISBN978-4-89319-160-1
Through Fugaku study, I really think that Boeing B-29 and Convair B-36 were really outstanding excellent design.
Also Fugaku was very challenging,too.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2010, 03:15:09 pm by blackkite »

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #178 on: October 11, 2010, 02:50:57 am »
Hi! B-36 Armament out.
I modify the drawing 0f Fugaku HA44 variant. Please watch page 12. Enjoy.

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #179 on: October 24, 2010, 02:49:59 am »
Hi! You can see large image by clicking bottom right of each pictures. The cabin shape is little different from my image.  
http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/yuunagi_dameya/7557760.html
And another Fugaku model picture.
Source:Internet site.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 02:55:49 am by blackkite »

Offline T-50

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #180 on: October 24, 2010, 02:43:52 pm »
Hi Blackkite San this is a very interesting version of the Fugaku,the nose section looks like the pression cabin of the Ki-77 Patsy.
I was wondering which version has thepreference the B-29 style nose or the Ki77 style Nose.
Its a nice model I must say!

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #181 on: October 25, 2010, 04:52:29 am »
Hi T50 san! I think this model must be based on following drawing. It's after war work.
I find another Fugaku drawing. It's charming.Enjoy.
Source: Internet site
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 05:09:47 am by blackkite »

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #182 on: October 28, 2010, 03:57:57 am »
Hi! Z-plane transport version flying model is under construction in Japan now. It will be complete November this year.

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #183 on: October 29, 2010, 05:12:31 pm »

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #184 on: October 31, 2010, 05:02:57 am »
Hi! My guess for Fugaku pressurized cabin. Too many windows. ;D
Each window size(350mm×350mm) is almost same as B-29's window size.
Cabin diameter is 2.5m same as Renzan's cabin height while B-29's cabin diameter was 2.87m(113 inch).
Cabin length is same as Renzan's ,too. Fuselage height is 4m same as Z-plane.
If she had 2 beds, every crew could sleep 8 hours per day.
Turret shape is from Aichi Denko fighter.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 03:00:20 am by blackkite »

Offline T-50

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #185 on: October 31, 2010, 02:16:22 pm »
Nice drawning of the nose Blackkite San!

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #186 on: October 31, 2010, 03:02:33 pm »
Thanks T-50 san. I really want to see your Fugaku drawing. I know my drawings are far from the true shape of Fugaku. ;D
BTW I will begin to draw side view.

Offline T-50

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #187 on: November 01, 2010, 10:00:48 am »
Hi Blackkite San Ill will send you soon my version of the G10N

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #188 on: November 13, 2010, 12:09:20 am »
Hi! My guess for Fugaku HA44 variant front view. Main landing gear inner tires were dropped after take off.
The fuselage cross section shape is from Z-plane except pressurized cabin.
And I add some modification to Fugaku HA44 variant plan view. Enjoy.  
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 03:18:46 am by blackkite »

Offline T-50

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #189 on: November 14, 2010, 12:34:14 pm »
Hi Blackkite San Ill must say you did again a wonderfull job! very nice drawings!
If I complete my next G10N drawing Ill send you the picture,but it will be later I'm afraid.
Ive some delays sadly,busy men but I promise you you get my picture when it is finished!
best regards T-50

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #190 on: November 14, 2010, 02:35:32 pm »
Many thanks T-50 san! Yes I know we are very busy indeed. ;)

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #191 on: November 21, 2010, 02:01:33 am »
Hi I am drawing Fugaku HA44 variant side view now which has a single vertical tail stabilizer,the height is 12m same as Z-plane.
The completion target is the end of November this year.
There is a opinion that Fugaku's height is 8.8m. I neglected this opinion for along time because it's too low for me, but recently I realized that if Fugaku had twin vertical tail stabilizers same as B-24, 8.8m height was possible.
Source of drawing:Internet
« Last Edit: November 21, 2010, 03:00:44 am by blackkite »

Offline Nik

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Engine angles...
« Reply #192 on: November 21, 2010, 05:42:48 am »
Any ideas on those engine angles ??

I wondered if the thrust lines were to improve control during engine-out events, but...

I suppose the alternative is that it has something to do with air-flow over wings due 'area ruling', if that was the case for this design...

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #193 on: November 21, 2010, 06:21:13 am »
Yes B-36's and Z-plane's engine thrust lines were not parallel to the flight direction. But 4 engines bomber(b-29, Renzan, etc)'s engine thrust lines were parallel to the flight direction. I can't understand the meaning of the difference between 6 engines bomber engine thrust lines direction and 4 engines bomber engine thrust lines direction.
Angled thrust line is the lift increase method for short chord outer wing? It might be not so draggy because engine nacelles were parallel to propellers air flow.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2010, 07:12:39 am by blackkite »

Offline airman

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #194 on: November 22, 2010, 09:55:14 am »
Hi I am drawing Fugaku HA44 variant side view now which has a single vertical tail stabilizer,the height is 12m same as Z-plane.
The completion target is the end of November this year.
There is a opinion that Fugaku's height is 8.8m. I neglected this opinion for along time because it's too low for me, but recently I realized that if Fugaku had twin vertical tail stabilizers same as B-24, 8.8m height was possible.
Source of drawing:Internet
Compliments , nice drawing ! :)
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Offline Skyblazer

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #195 on: November 22, 2010, 09:59:33 am »
I agree. Lots of nice work in this gallery... And yet for a long time I figured that all the artwork in this topic was from/was inspired by genuine material, but found out later that a lot of it is speculation... All this stuff would be much more appropriate in the "Speculative" section of the forum, wouldn't it?  ???

Offline frank

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #196 on: November 22, 2010, 10:26:08 am »

      The DC-4E & also the G5N used the angled setup as well. I didn't realize the B-36's engines were angled.


Yes B-36's and Z-plane's engine thrust lines were not parallel to the flight direction. But 4 engines bomber(b-29, Renzan, etc)'s engine thrust lines were parallel to the flight direction. I can't understand the meaning of the difference between 6 engines bomber engine thrust lines direction and 4 engines bomber engine thrust lines direction.
Angled thrust line is the lift increase method for short chord outer wing? It might be not so draggy because engine nacelles were parallel to propellers air flow.

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #197 on: November 23, 2010, 03:13:34 am »
Hi B-36's engine thrust lines were slightly angled to the inside direction compared with flight direction. Don't you think so?
B-36's wing tip shape are same as my guess for Fugaku's wing tip(From Renzan. ;D)
« Last Edit: November 24, 2010, 02:39:07 pm by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #198 on: November 27, 2010, 10:55:21 pm »
Sorry for delay. It's under construction. My wife ordered me "Stop Fugaku >:(".  BTW I never stop it. ;D
Wing side view looks like Mt.Fuji. ;)
« Last Edit: November 28, 2010, 06:29:46 am by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #199 on: December 01, 2010, 01:37:41 pm »
Hi! Still it's under construction. :-\
« Last Edit: December 01, 2010, 01:42:59 pm by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #200 on: December 02, 2010, 03:06:06 am »
I understand here is the proper position for my Fugaku post. Thanks a lot. ;D
I will continue to draw Fugaku HA50 variant, Fukaku HA54 variant, twin vertical stabilizer Fugaku, and Kawanishi TB with my very very slow pace. Recently I found that existing TB's drawing is not proper because engines are too small and fuselage is too short compared with the specification. 

Offline Skybolt

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #201 on: December 02, 2010, 01:39:39 pm »
Well, actually, originally this thread rightfuly belonged to the Early Secret Projects section. Only later, it veered towards the speculative. I fear that transplanting the entire thread in this section could be a mistake.

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #202 on: December 03, 2010, 03:11:07 am »
Many thanks my dear ALBM. No problem at all. I will continue my activity in this section. It's not mistake. ;)

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #203 on: December 03, 2010, 04:24:13 am »
You are trying to reconstruct the Fugaku using the scarce available information,
mainly non-visual, so the result probably will get "source grade 1" only, I think.
It's like reconstructing some kind of dinosaur by just having a single claw, but
you are doing it with great care and expertise. I would agree with Skybolt, but the
borderline between a reconstruction based on very few information and a speculative
project probably is fleeting. Keep on with the good work !   ;)
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #204 on: December 03, 2010, 06:35:44 am »
Many thanks my dear Jemiba. You, skybolt and T-50 encouraged me very much. I believe Fugaku was a rather small Z-plane with pressurized cabin, turbo supercharged engines and remote controlled turrets. Base was the Z-plane. Also I believe engine nacelle shape were similar to Renzan's one. Fugaku's wing section is mystery for me. B-29's wing section is very thick.
But I believe  Fugaku's wing section was not so thick because wing tip deflected 1.3m to the upward direction in flight.
(Nakajima's engineer Shibuya designed very light weight wing.)  
Cabin window shape and vertical tail stabilizer shape are still mystery for me now.  
« Last Edit: December 03, 2010, 06:40:41 am by blackkite »

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #205 on: December 06, 2010, 04:42:03 am »
Hi! My guess for Fugaku HA44 variant side view. Enjoy.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2010, 04:46:47 am by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #206 on: December 11, 2010, 02:18:28 am »
Hi! My guess for Fugaku HA44 variant 3 side view. Enjoy. :)
I did Japanese SPF member's duty.  ;D
Wing side view looks like Mt.Fuji, I think it's one of the reason why her name was Fugaku(富嶽)(the old name of Mt.Fuji(富士山)).
« Last Edit: December 11, 2010, 04:40:09 pm by blackkite »

Offline airman

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #207 on: December 11, 2010, 06:27:36 am »
great thread guys ! :)
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Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #208 on: December 11, 2010, 01:57:39 pm »
Thanks my friend! :D My next target is Fugaku HA50 variant.
Engines were Mitsubishi HA50, the only survival of the Fugaku project, take off power was 3,300hp/each(total 19,800hp), 22 cylinders air cooling radial turbo supercharged engine. Expected Fugaku HA50 variant performance were as follows.
Top speed:700km/h(12,000m),640km/h(9,000m)
Range:16,500km(15ton bomb),18,000km(10t bomb),19,400km(5ton bomb)
Service ceiling:15,000m
Wing span, length, height were same as HA44 variant.
 
« Last Edit: December 11, 2010, 02:17:07 pm by blackkite »

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #209 on: December 23, 2010, 05:33:11 am »
Some Japanese documents says that Fugaku's height was 8.8m.
If Fugaku's height was 8.8m, she had twin vertical stabilizers, which gave good rear view for upper aft turret, contributed to reduce the height of the assembly building.
I believe this alternative shape was planned in paralleled with the single vertical stabilizer shape.  
« Last Edit: December 24, 2010, 06:25:42 am by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #210 on: December 25, 2010, 08:16:21 pm »
In Japanese National Diet Library Tokyo, I found following Z,GF and Fugaku data.  
In these data, there was no data for Fugaku HA50 variant.
I think expected maximum speed 780km/h for Fugaku HA54 variant is proper, because she had only 4 engines, aerodynamically more clean than Fugaku HA50 variant which had 6 large diameter HA50 engines. I modified my previous table.

I change my 3-side view next target from Fugaku HA50 variant to Fugaku HA54 variant with twin vertical stabilizers.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2010, 04:28:11 am by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #211 on: January 11, 2011, 01:27:56 am »
It's very difficult to understand HA54 engine.
The following site shows the pictures of the design specification and project points document of HA54 engine prepared for the Fugaku design discussion meeting between the IJA,IJN and the Fugaku design team in April of 1944.
http://www.fukuya-works.com/html/others-c.htm
You can see different two types of mechanical superchargers in folowing pictures.
You also see wing leading edge air intakes(for intercooler and turbo supercharger?) for HA54 engine, same as B-17.
HA54 used the combination of mechanical supercharger and turbo supercharger same as B-24?
In this document, Nakajima's engineers excluded the part for turbo supercharger design , because they had some problems for turbo supercharger design still at the time(April of 1944!!).(Source:"Fugaku" by Takanori Maema Kodansha Tokyo Nobember,1991 ISBN4-06-205543-0 C0095)
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 03:09:16 am by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #212 on: January 17, 2011, 03:11:39 am »
Of course HA54 had a single array cowl flap.
B-17's air intake position for turbo supercharger and intercooler were possible HA54 air intake position for turbo supercharger and intercooler.
BTW I think this air intake position was a little draggy one for Fugaku.
Low drag shape was very important for such a long range aircraft.
It's hard to find cold air intake position for turbo superchargers and intercoolers in case of Fugaku HA54 variant.
"過給器" means supercharger. "中間冷却器" means intercooler. "空気取り入れ口" means air intake.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 06:18:05 am by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #213 on: January 18, 2011, 06:24:38 am »
Compare with HA54 two drawings and mock up picture, we must be find some facts.


« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 03:47:54 am by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #214 on: January 26, 2011, 03:20:03 am »
Hi P&W R4360 Wasp Major turbo charged engine. I think this is one of the possible shape for turbocharged HA54 engine.
The bottom Fugaku drawing's engine nacelle shape is good except outer 4 engines. ;D

R4360 engine front view shows the air intake at the bottom of the engine nacelle for oil cooler, for turbo charger and inter cooler.
Right side view shows the exhaust pipe to turbo charger, inter cooler at the after top of the engine.
Left side view shows oil cooler(bottom) and cold air piping from air intake to inter cooler(vertical piping), supply air piping from inter cooler to engine cylinders.(horizontal piping)      
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 05:00:15 am by blackkite »

Offline Tzoli

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #215 on: February 02, 2011, 03:04:44 am »
I have a question regarding the G10N Fugaku.
Once I read somewhere that there could be a Jet powered variant of this bomber called G10N2 Fugaku-Kai with 6 jet engines replaced the piston ones, like on the J7W1/W2 Shinden / Shinden-Kai. Does such design or proposal really existed?

Offline blackkite

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #216 on: February 02, 2011, 05:19:24 am »
Oh! I have never heard about Fugaku-kai. :o
I wonder that jet engine's fuel consumption was very large for such a long range aircraft at the day.

Offline Tzoli

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #217 on: February 02, 2011, 06:52:12 am »
Oh! I have never heard about Fugaku-kai. :o
I wonder that jet engine's fuel consumption was very large for such a long range aircraft at the day.

I do think so too. If such project existed it would reduce the range of the craft, maybe half??? But significantly increase it's speed and bomb load am I right?

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #218 on: February 07, 2011, 05:28:39 am »
Hi! For Fugaku research, I got this 607 pages large book recently.(U,S, $74.95)
You can see technical detail of R-4360 engine, including various turbo charging system study.
You also see followinf aircraft's turbo charging system.
Republic XP-72, Hughes XF-11, HK-1, Northrop XB-35(very interesting arrangement!),Curtis XP-71, Convair B-36, Republic Rainbow, Boeing B-377,etc.
  
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 07:29:48 am by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #219 on: October 18, 2011, 07:25:27 am »
Hi! Another image of Fugaku. Enjoy.
I'm waiting for Fujimi mokei's Fugaku model. But it's deliver delayed for a month.
Fujimi Mokei's Fugaku model is Fugaku HA-54 variant. Engines are very big. It's good model.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 04:27:59 am by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #220 on: November 06, 2011, 01:43:36 am »
Hi! I find this blueprint in Japanese internet site.
I wonder what it is.
Please take note that each propeller line is parallel to the wing span direction.
It's not a Z-plane's drawing.
There is no fillet at the wing root trailing edge.
http://homepage3.nifty.com/time-trek/else-net/1944-6.html
 
« Last Edit: November 06, 2011, 02:30:39 pm by blackkite »

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #221 on: December 19, 2011, 04:12:10 am »
« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 04:29:06 am by blackkite »

Offline hesham

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #222 on: February 08, 2015, 04:11:54 am »
Hi,


here is the initial drawing to G10N.


FR 3/1964

Offline lark

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Re: G10N Fugaku derived projects
« Reply #223 on: February 19, 2015, 12:57:42 pm »
Not realy Hesham.

It's more a postwar variation on the Fugaku theme...

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