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Author Topic: VFX Competition (F-14 alternatives)  (Read 24972 times)

Offline borntokillagain

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VFX Competition (F-14 alternatives)
« on: January 28, 2010, 09:37:19 pm »
Hey everyone,

Talos (from whatifmodelers), a few others and I are working on a series VFX profile drawings for each of the contenders involved. Attached are WIPs for the NAR and MDC designs for your viewing pleasure.

We would appreciate if anyone here could post some higher res versions the designs, particularly the GD Model 44 and NAR-323 as reference material for this project. Currently we are trying figure out details such like IFR probe placement, gun ports, vents and the like for each design.

Be sure to drop by at whatifmodelers.com to view some of the wonderful profile drawings our fellow members have posted there.  ;)




Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2010, 10:11:51 pm »
Really beautiful work!

I presume you have Tony Buttler's American Secret Projects to hand? I don't have any additional materials on either of these designs over what is in there. Perhaps Tommy might have something.
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Offline Skyblazer

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« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2010, 01:35:26 am »
Being on What If as well, I am extremely impatient to see the results of this beautiful project. Congratulations!

Offline Mark Nankivil

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« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2010, 04:53:58 am »
Very nice - thanks for posting and looking forward to the others!

Enjoy the Day! Mark

Offline borntokillagain

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« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2010, 05:15:50 pm »
Thanks for the comments :D All line drawings are done by our talented member Talos while the 225A profile is colored up by Coops.

I don't personally have a copy of the American Secret Projects book on hand and probably should get one.

Talos asked that i post the Grumman 303D as well so here it is.

Offline blackstar

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« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2010, 05:25:31 pm »
Talos (from whatifmodelers), a few others and I are working on a series VFX profile drawings for each of the contenders involved. Attached are WIPs for the NAR and MDC designs for your viewing pleasure.

Very neat.  What would be cool is if you did a comparison poster of side views and top views of all the contenders together.

Offline Talos

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« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2010, 06:06:42 pm »
Glad you guys are enjoying the work on the VFX so far. I'm trying to keep it on the down-low until we're finished and present it over at What-If, but I suppose it'll be okay to talk about it over here.  :P

Anywho, yeah, I'm doing the lineart for all five birds, as well as coloring and shading the Grumman entry. A separate painter is doing each of the other four planes. I've modified the designs some from the original basic info I've found, such as the new canopies for the 225A, 303D, and 323, panel lining, and future upgrades (F110 and F100 engines, for instance).



blackstar, I don't intend to draw top views of them, since my primary focus is on profiles, but borntokillagain did throw together a quick picture of the basic three-views of all five planes.

And now...back to the grindstone, I have planes to draw.

Offline blackstar

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« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2010, 06:16:47 pm »
Cool stuff.  I do think that top views are important because the unique thing about these concepts was the swing wing, and you don't really see that from the side.

Offline Talos

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« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2010, 06:39:50 pm »
Cool stuff.  I do think that top views are important because the unique thing about these concepts was the swing wing, and you don't really see that from the side.

True...it's just not my preference when I do color profiles like you'd see in a Squadron-Signal or Osprey book.

Offline OM

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« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2010, 08:17:08 pm »
Cool stuff.  I do think that top views are important because the unique thing about these concepts was the swing wing, and you don't really see that from the side.

...In total agreement here. You need all three views of a 3-view, regardless of "personal preference" in order to grasp the total shape of the vehicle in question.

Offline Talos

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« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2010, 11:02:20 pm »
Cool stuff.  I do think that top views are important because the unique thing about these concepts was the swing wing, and you don't really see that from the side.

...In total agreement here. You need all three views of a 3-view, regardless of "personal preference" in order to grasp the total shape of the vehicle in question.

I know, I know.  ;D That's going beyond the scope of this initial project though. Right now it's just color profiles, like what you would see in the center color pages of Squadron-Signal's "McDonnell-Douglas F-14A Gargoyle in Action", etc. Eventually I would like to do full views of the birds, but that wasn't going to realistically happen at this time, since I have to draw, design, update, and detail five separate aircraft from scant resources. I'd rather get something out soon then take until 2012.  ;)

Offline Skyblazer

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« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2010, 12:23:24 am »
"Gargoyle"??? Is that a Navy nickname for the Tomcat??

Offline Pioneer

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« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2010, 12:45:31 am »
No the U.S Navy did not refer to its Tomcat's as Gargoyle
If I am correct, it would be a name used in the tradition of McDonnell naming its carrier-based fighter after a Gothic-type theme!
For example the McDonnell FH-1 Phantom, F2H Banshee, F3H Demon, F-101 Voodoo and the F-4 Phantom II
So the name Gargoyle may have been used by McDonnell Douglas as the name for its Model 225A, if it had won the VFX competition!

P.S. McDonnell did develop the LBD-1 Gargoyle guided missile

Regards
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Offline Triton

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« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2010, 01:04:43 am »
I guess the name of the McDonnell Douglas F-14 could also have used Douglas military aircraft naming conventions with Sky in the name, like Douglas A2D Skyshark for example. Or maybe it could have been named for a bird of prey.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2010, 01:13:45 am by Triton »

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2010, 01:08:59 am »
Not likely, as the fighter designing bit was McDonnell (St Louis).
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Offline Abraham Gubler

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« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2010, 01:26:12 am »
Even after the merger McDonnell and Douglas were effectively separate agencies. You didn't buy fighters like the F-15, F-18, etc from McDonnell Douglas you brought them from the McDonnell Aircraft Company or "McAir" as it was known. So these aircraft kept their McDonnell naming tradition in the US Navy which was named for ghosts and the like. The F/A-18 is an exception because it is actually a Northrop aircraft which named its fighters for stingers therefore the Hornet. If the US Navy was to have brought something from the Long Beach, Douglas Aircraft Division of McDonnell Douglas then it could have been named the "sky-X".
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Offline Talos

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« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2010, 12:20:30 pm »
No the U.S Navy did not refer to its Tomcat's as Gargoyle
If I am correct, it would be a name used in the tradition of McDonnell naming its carrier-based fighter after a Gothic-type theme!
For example the McDonnell FH-1 Phantom, F2H Banshee, F3H Demon, F-101 Voodoo and the F-4 Phantom II
So the name Gargoyle may have been used by McDonnell Douglas as the name for its Model 225A, if it had won the VFX competition!

P.S. McDonnell did develop the LBD-1 Gargoyle guided missile

Regards
M.A.D

Yes, that was exactly our intention. It was either that or Banshee II.  ;D (Figuring FH-1 Phantom ->F2H-1 Banshee ->F3H-1 Demon ->F4H-1 Phantom II ->F-x Banshee II) Gargoyle seemed appropriate, what with the six wings and such that this thing has.

Minus Grumman, which will keep 'Tomcat', we will have each plane having a unique name, naturally, though all will be 'F-14A something'

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2010, 01:26:23 pm »
Vought - got to be something in the Sea Wolf - Pirate - Corsair - Crusader - Cutlass theme. e.g. Buccaneer, Privateer, Sea Raider,  Freebooter, or Pirate II maybe?

Rockwell (North American) - something referencing the Fury I guess?

General Dynamics (Convair) - Vengeance II ? (After the Vultee Vengeance)

« Last Edit: January 30, 2010, 02:27:09 pm by overscan »
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2010, 02:32:04 pm »
Rockwell F-14A Nemesis (the goddess who was served by the 3 Furies)
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Offline Talos

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« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2010, 02:48:31 pm »
Vought - got to be something in the Sea Wolf - Pirate - Corsair - Crusader - Cutlass theme. e.g. Buccaneer, Privateer, Sea Raider,  Freebooter, or Pirate II maybe?

Rockwell (North American) - something referencing the Fury I guess?

General Dynamics (Convair) - Vengeance II ? (After the Vultee Vengeance)



Thanks, Overscan. What we had figured so far was this:

Grumman F-14A Tomcat (obviously)
McDonnell-Douglas F-14A Gargoyle
Vought F-14A Paladin (playing off the Crusader theme, with a possible 'Saladin' name for the IIRAF sale)
General Dynamics F-14A Vanguard (Vultee Vanguard, also "Vanguard of the fleet" sort of thing)

Rockwell's I can't remember what we were debating on off-hand.

I finally got some work done on the V-507, so here's a comparison of the current stage of the lineart of all five birds (this is the first time I've had all five together)
« Last Edit: January 30, 2010, 02:50:56 pm by Talos »

Offline aim9xray

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« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2010, 08:15:43 pm »
And now...back to the grindstone, I have planes to draw.

A minor [really picky, sorry] point of order...

What timeframe is the combined drawing intended to depict?  The reason is that the company names and logos were in a state of in the late 1960s.  For instance:

North American Aviation merged with Rockwell Standard to form North American Rockwell in late 1967.

North American Rockwell merged with Rockwell Manufacturing to form Rockwell International in 1973.

So, the NR-323 should have the non-italicized "North American Rockwell" title.  The italicized "Rockwell" title dates from the late 90's after the name of "Rockwell International" was discarded.  The NAR/RI logo looks a little odd, the circle should be ever-so-slightly ovalized and the "hockey sticks" should be wider.

Grumman changed their logo from the "ball" to the "hatchet" in late July 1969 along with the name change from the Grumman Aircraft Engineering Company to Grumman Corporation.

(VFX contract award was in January 1969.)

HTH, and keep up the good work!
Craig

Offline Talos

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« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2010, 08:55:59 pm »
That combined one with all the three-views was just an internal one for the artists to remember what they were going to be working on while we were discussing it, it wasn't intended to be released. We'll be doing various profiles detailing the planes from the 1970s through retirement in the early 2000s, including foreign sales. Don't worry, though, we know about the company changes.  ;D

Offline borntokillagain

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« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2010, 11:01:03 am »
Thought i posted this update by Talos to gather opinions on NAR323 loadout combination and their placement around the airframe. Right now only the semi-comformal stations for Sparrows are known. Don't ask us how the 20mm is suppose to be fired with the starboard lower Sparrow carried  ;D

Ideas please ? 

Offline MihoshiK

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« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2010, 11:53:40 am »
Thought i posted this update by Talos to gather opinions on NAR323 loadout combination and their placement around the airframe. Right now only the semi-comformal stations for Sparrows are known. Don't ask us how the 20mm is suppose to be fired with the starboard lower Sparrow carried  ;D

Ideas please ?  
Unlesss I'm severely mistaken the 20 mm was located in the lower middle of the fuselage. It's firing port would have been somewhat aft of the intakes, on the bottom of the plane, behind the forward landing gear.

In fact, if you check out reply #8 in the beginning of the thread, you can see it's location in one of the drawings.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 11:55:55 am by MihoshiK »

Offline Talos

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« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2010, 09:22:05 pm »
Thought i posted this update by Talos to gather opinions on NAR323 loadout combination and their placement around the airframe. Right now only the semi-comformal stations for Sparrows are known. Don't ask us how the 20mm is suppose to be fired with the starboard lower Sparrow carried  ;D

Ideas please ?  
Unlesss I'm severely mistaken the 20 mm was located in the lower middle of the fuselage. It's firing port would have been somewhat aft of the intakes, on the bottom of the plane, behind the forward landing gear.

In fact, if you check out reply #8 in the beginning of the thread, you can see it's location in one of the drawings.

It didn't look like that when I looked at the drawings in that reply. My interpretation was that the muzzle was in a divet on the starboard side of the fuselage, right in the 'corner'. But I can see how it would be closer to the centerline, though. All in all, it's just a low-resolution resource and hard to tell definitively without additional drawings/model shots.

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2010, 10:42:38 pm »
Enlarged pics. Looks like the ammo drum is on the centreline, the gun below it also on the centerline. Not sure though.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 11:05:36 pm by overscan »
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Offline Sundog

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Re: VFX Competition (F-14 alternatives)
« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2010, 02:31:35 pm »
It looks like you guys are missing the bumps on the top of the fuselage, near the wing trailing edge, that allow for clearance of MLG wheels. You can see them in the isometric see through drawing Overscan just posted. Other than that, it looks good.

Offline mz

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Re: VFX Competition (F-14 alternatives)
« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2010, 04:03:46 pm »
Traditional stabilizer+rudder fin that is folding? Seems backwards from the A-5 whole turning fin as realized (with an easy fold) or twin fin proposal (with no fold needed). Interesting mechanism that one there inside the fold, visible in the side cutaway...

Offline Talos

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Re: VFX Competition (F-14 alternatives)
« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2010, 05:42:10 pm »
It looks like you guys are missing the bumps on the top of the fuselage, near the wing trailing edge, that allow for clearance of MLG wheels. You can see them in the isometric see through drawing Overscan just posted. Other than that, it looks good.

Don't worry, I just haven't added them yet!

At the moment I'm working on detailing the V-507.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2010, 05:44:38 pm by Talos »

Offline Sundog

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Re: VFX Competition (F-14 alternatives)
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2010, 11:38:14 am »
Don't worry, I just haven't added them yet!

At the moment I'm working on detailing the V-507.

I wasn't sure how far along you were, I just wanted to point it out JIC. ;) They're looking really good so far. :)

Offline damian2

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Re: VFX Competition (F-14 alternatives)
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2010, 11:03:45 pm »
I can't wait to see more!!!

D

Offline Tophe

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Re: VFX Competition (F-14 alternatives)
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2010, 03:44:43 am »
The LTV V-507 looks like a French Mirage... Is there any influence or cooperation explaining?

Offline Jemiba

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Re: VFX Competition (F-14 alternatives)
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2010, 08:41:44 am »
You're sharp sighted, Tophe !
In Liebert/Buyck "Le Mirage F1" it is described,how engineers from Dassault
travelled to Dallas to assist Vought in the design of the VFX contender.
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline frank

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Re: VFX Competition (F-14 alternatives)
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2010, 09:02:48 am »

           Not sure why this thread isn't tied in with this one, but it has a number of pics of Vought's mock-up & I saw a couple of posts mentioning Dassault's involvement.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,229.0.html


The LTV V-507 looks like a French Mirage... Is there any influence or cooperation explaining?

Offline Talos

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Re: VFX Competition (F-14 alternatives)
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2010, 10:20:18 am »

           Not sure why this thread isn't tied in with this one, but it has a number of pics of Vought's mock-up & I saw a couple of posts mentioning Dassault's involvement.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,229.0.html


The LTV V-507 looks like a French Mirage... Is there any influence or cooperation explaining?

It was, but as it's an art thread and not a research thread like the other one, it doesn't belong in that thread. I do need to get back to work on these, though. I've been busy.

Offline Talos

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Re: VFX Competition (F-14 alternatives)
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2010, 03:27:40 pm »
Haven't updated this in awhile, but I got some work done on the 507 today, so things are progressing. Since I found new references for the canopy, I'll probably change the 225A's to that so it's not using an F-15B's...  ;D



Offline Talos

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Re: VFX Competition (F-14 alternatives)
« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2010, 08:08:22 am »
Well here's the new more-accurate canopy. It's scary how well it fits in with the F-15B one. The windscreens are the same. I stuck a support in the middle of the canopy like how the F-14 picked one up between G-303G mockup and prototype stages.



Offline prolific1

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Re: VFX Competition (F-14 alternatives)
« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2010, 04:38:20 pm »
I'll be covering F-14 alternatives (in 5-view) when I get to the 70's installment of my book. Until then...it the 50's for me.
Windows/PCs/anything Microsoft sucks.

Offline Talos

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Re: VFX Competition (F-14 alternatives)
« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2010, 07:30:13 am »
I'll be covering F-14 alternatives (in 5-view) when I get to the 70's installment of my book. Until then...it the 50's for me.

I best hurry and get these done, then. After seeing your work finished, I doubt I'd want to continue mine.  :P ;D

Offline prolific1

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Re: VFX Competition (F-14 alternatives)
« Reply #39 on: June 29, 2010, 09:25:55 am »
Quote
I best hurry and get these done, then. After seeing your work finished, I doubt I'd want to continue mine.  Tongue Grin

You should continue whatever you have planned regardless of what other people are doing. Your line work might prove to be a valuable resource to someone else. Besides...it will be a while before I move to this era. I have quite a bit of work o finish on my first book. :P
Windows/PCs/anything Microsoft sucks.

Offline Talos

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Re: VFX Competition (F-14 alternatives)
« Reply #40 on: June 29, 2010, 09:36:03 am »
Quote
I best hurry and get these done, then. After seeing your work finished, I doubt I'd want to continue mine.  Tongue Grin

You should continue whatever you have planned regardless of what other people are doing. Your line work might prove to be a valuable resource to someone else. Besides...it will be a while before I move to this era. I have quite a bit of work o finish on my first book. :P

I know, I know.  :P Actually, though, I'm a big fan of your work and I'd like to get some pointers from you sometime to help get to your level. I've been working on the VFX off-and-on for just about a year now and I'd hate to be left in the dust when it comes time for me to shade and color (and start doing profiles of) the G-303D.  ;D

Offline prolific1

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Re: VFX Competition (F-14 alternatives)
« Reply #41 on: June 29, 2010, 10:53:04 am »
Sure thing.
Windows/PCs/anything Microsoft sucks.

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: VFX Competition (F-14 alternatives)
« Reply #42 on: September 12, 2013, 12:50:08 pm »
Thought you all might like to see what eventually became of that line art.  Click on the image below to see the picture at 100% or view it at my DeviantArt page.  It's the Vought V-507, LTV's submission to the VFX competition actually won by the Grumman Tomcat.  Take a look at the "build thread" over at the Beyond the Sprues Forums to see the step-by-step of the process of creating the profile.



Cheers,

Logan

Offline Geist

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Re: VFX Competition (F-14 alternatives)
« Reply #43 on: September 12, 2013, 03:44:19 pm »
Really interesting. Great work!
Check out my other works at my website, leave your comments and download the wallpapers!
http://www.duhraviationart.com

Offline fightingirish

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Re: VFX Competition (F-14 alternatives)
« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2013, 09:11:58 am »
New drawing of the Vought V-507 F-14A Vagabond - VF-1 Wolfpack uploaded today by Logan Hartke at deviantart.


Source: http://comradeloganov.deviantart.com/art/Vought-V-507-F-14A-Vagabond-VF-1-Wolfpack-418030834
Slán,
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McDonnell Douglas Model 225 painting by "The Artist" Michael Burke (Tavush) 2018, found at deviantart.com and at Secret Projects Forum » Research Topics » User Artwork » McDonnell Douglas Model 225 Painting

Offline RAP

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Re: VFX Competition (F-14 alternatives)
« Reply #45 on: November 03, 2018, 11:42:20 pm »
...