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Author Topic: South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.  (Read 467944 times)

Offline Herman

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Re: South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.
« Reply #1695 on: November 02, 2017, 02:38:48 am »



Two photo's of the Ratel-based (top) and the Eland-based prototypes during the development of the Rooikat. These prototypes, as well as the previously mentioned Saracen prototype, were built mainly to test various kinds of suspension. The Ratel-based vehicle is very high due to its live axles while the Panhard-based hull is exceptionally low due to the H-type drive used. Interestingly, the Panhard-based car had a crew of two men in the hull: a driver and co-driver, next to one another.

Offline Herman

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Re: South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.
« Reply #1696 on: November 02, 2017, 02:49:14 am »



Two of the vehicles stored inside the shed. These have been discussed previously on this thread.

Very interesting is that the "mystery" 8x8 wreck which stood outside the big shed for many years, has disappeared. This is the prototype 8x8 ICV which we have tentatively identified as the "Sprinkaan", possibly built by the tiffies somewhere and using axles from a Magirus Jupiter truck or gun tractor. It was powered by a Detroit Diesel engine. Very little is known about this thing. A few years ago, while visiting the museum, I ran into a warrant officer who mentioned that this vehicle was pet project of Major ??, who wanted to rebuild it. I do hope that the vehicle has indeed been taken away to be rebuilt and that it will return, with some information about its heritage, and that it has not been taken away to be scrapped/dumped.

Offline kaiserbill

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Re: South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.
« Reply #1697 on: November 02, 2017, 12:46:37 pm »
Excellent Herman.
That 8x8 hull in reply 1690, that you surmise to be part of a study into a Ratel replacement...a couple of years back earlier in the thread, a pdf was posted about a few 6x6 and 8x8 hulls and mock-ups. It was indeed to do with a Ratel replacement, earlier than the Hoefyster/Patria/Badger.
I'm sure that hull was featured in that pdf, although i might be wrong. No further info was forthcoming at the time.
I will try to see if I can find it when I am in front of my computer.

Offline sa_bushwar

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Re: South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.
« Reply #1698 on: November 05, 2017, 03:33:58 am »
This seems to be a Mfezi troop carrier prototype next to the blue Ingwe. There must have been more than one prototype; as the one featured in Surviving the Ride on page 95, has 4 equal sized and spaced windows and this one not.

Offline sa_bushwar

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Re: South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.
« Reply #1699 on: November 05, 2017, 03:49:16 am »
Never seen a Casspir with such large side and back windows...

Offline curious george

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Re: South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.
« Reply #1700 on: November 05, 2017, 06:21:18 am »
Never seen a Casspir with such large side and back windows...

Looks like a Wolf to me.

Offline Herman

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Re: South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.
« Reply #1701 on: November 06, 2017, 11:45:07 pm »
It is interesting to see how the switch from Deutz air-cooled engines to Atlantis (Mercedes) water-cooled engines changed the nose profiles of South African armoured vehicles. If one looks at the various armoured SAMIL Kwvol models, the noses are low and the air intake at the front relatively small. After the switch to ADE engines, the attendent radiators required larger noses and air intakes, for instance the Velskoen, Casspir, etc. It is especially noticeable on vehicles like the Mfesi, pictured above, Okapi, Tapir, etc. The 8x8 gun travtor prototype was fitted with a MAN diesel and one can see how different the nose profile is compared to the Kwvol trucks.

The mk 1 version of the SAMIL 20 was powered by a 6.1 liter Deutz straight six air-cooled engine developing about 125 gross horsepower. This was replaced in the mk 2 by the ADE version of the Mercedes OM 352 engine of about 5.6 liter which developed about 120hp. This engine was also used, in a turbocharged version (170hp), in the CASSPIR. The SAMIL 50 mk 1 was powered by a V6 Deutz diesel of 9.6 liter capacity, developing 192 gross hp. On the mk. 2 this engine was replaced by the ADE 409N engine, an inline (straight) 5 cilinder unit of 9.5 liter developing about the same horsepower. The air-cooled engine was however shorter and lower, and did not require a radiator, of course. The SAMIL 100 always retained the V10 Deutz engine of 16 liters and 320 gross horsepower. This engine was also used in the last variant of the Kwvol to be introduced, the Bateleur (1989).

Air-cooled engines have practically disappeared from the commercial truck scene, with only Tatra still offering a 12.7 liter V8 with ratings up to about 420hp and Euro-5 compliant. The problem is that it becomes increasingly difficult to effectively cool the cilinder heads with just air cooling as the power of modern engines increase with turbocharging. I suspect air-cooled engines may also be more expensive to produce than equivalent water-cooled ones.

Offline curious george

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Re: South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.
« Reply #1702 on: November 14, 2017, 06:21:17 am »
The promo vid is as cheesy as they got in the early 90's BUT have a look at seconds 47-48 in the initial intro.

I assume that is a 35mm eGlas that is truck mounted,any more info  or pics?


Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.
« Reply #1703 on: November 15, 2017, 12:38:54 am »
Curious George,

I have placed scans of the EGlaS-35's official brochure in the "South African small to medium calibre weapon prototypes, concepts, projects etc." thread (post #63) - you should take a look there.


eGLaS-35 - it's gun was the newly developed EMAK 35mm cam driven cannon, I have posted EMAK's brochure elsewhere but will move it to this thread where it belongs.

I did not think much of eGLaS until I saw the promotional video, seems like we could have used them to good effect in our anti-aircraft batteries (like at Calueque dam).
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 12:41:20 am by Graugrun »

Offline Herman

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Re: South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.
« Reply #1704 on: November 15, 2017, 02:03:31 am »
A question: The SA Defence Force used Bedfords trucks in the fifties, sixties and early seventies. The earlier ones were RL models but in the late sixties, early seventies, SA also received later models of the Bedford. These were initially known (factory nomenclature) as the TK models, the military versions known as MK models. Does anybody know when the MK's were introduced in SA? Approximately how many were acquired and were the SA versions petrol or diesel powered. Most earlier army trucks in SA were petrol powered but that changed in the seventies with the introduction of the Unimogs and then the Samil series in the early eighties (when exactly did the Samils make their appearance?).

Offline kaiserbill

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Re: South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.
« Reply #1705 on: November 16, 2017, 01:34:52 pm »
Herman, I am unsure of a lot of those questions, but I had a quick look in Romer-Heitman large South African Armed Forces.
In a nutshell, he states that from about 1964 already, with the voluntary arms embargo pointing to the future, studies were started, which led to a rationalisation of the types of vehicles purchased, and kept in the inventory. That was the first step.
The next step was a study of the types of vehicles needed for the future, and the testing of those vehicles. The need for standardised and repeatable scientific testing led eventually to the gerotek (?) test range, one of the foremost in the world.
He basically says the SAMIL entered service from 1980 onwards.
Remember though, that this book was published around 1991, when secrecy and disinformation was still taken very seriously.

Edit: Perhaps Surviving the Ride would have more up to date "open" info. A brief google shows the Kwevoel entry has some info on the history of the SAMIL series. My laptop gave up the ghost, and I still need to retrieve its data, so I rely on my phone till its replacent arrives and data is transferred..less than ideal.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2017, 01:45:36 pm by kaiserbill »

Offline kaiserbill

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Re: South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.
« Reply #1706 on: December 01, 2017, 01:13:03 am »
A bit of backround info on the LZN as used in the fire service.
The one pic shows how massive this vehicle really is, compared to the adjacent fire pump/turntable ladder.
http://www.fireandrescue.co/news-dec-9-oldie.html

I've sort of got curious about this vehicle again due to the recent images of the North Korean missile transporter vehicle.
Still no real or new information has come to light about the South African TEL vehicle.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 06:45:08 am by kaiserbill »

Offline Levan Pozvonkyan

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Re: South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.
« Reply #1707 on: December 03, 2017, 05:33:37 am »
Skerpioen 8x8

Offline kaiserbill

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Re: South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.
« Reply #1708 on: December 04, 2017, 01:13:42 am »
Nice Levan!
Thanks.
So now we have a bit more context with the Rooikat towing picture.
Previously, we knew there seemed to be 2 types from the few pictures available.
This one which was obviously a field repair/combat maintenance vehicle for the "tiffies", and the other one with the large l loadbed that looks like it was probably a field/combat supply vehicle.

It's a big beast.
It would be great to know more details of this vehicle.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 12:39:16 pm by kaiserbill »

Offline Herman

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Re: South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.
« Reply #1709 on: December 13, 2017, 07:00:41 am »
Reply to post #1706:
Who has the LZN fire truck in use? Which department or municipality is SA?