South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.

kaiserbill · 13 July 2011

Have been reading up about Dr Vernon Joynt. Quite fascinating. He has had a massive influence on mine proof/MRAP vehicles, as well as a host of other military devices.

kaiserbill · 21 July 2011

The Spinnekop was a mine-proof mine detection vehicle concept developed in the the late 1970's. 18 were produced, to test the concept of fast mine sweeping. They were trialed and saw limited service testing in the SADF before being retired. They had an interesting hydraulic propulsion system.
Does anyone know anything about those South African Milton mine detectors that equipped this vehicle, as well as the Rhodesian Pookie?

Also on the 1st attachment is the Hotnotsgod, an interesting mine detection/detonating vehicle concept developed in the 1970's. It could also be controlled remotely.

xiaofan · 30 July 2011

Just come cross this. It looks like a Gepard turret on a Rooikat chassis. Is this vehicle real or just a composite image?

kaiserbill · 31 July 2011

That is a composite Photo Shop (poorly done) as far as I know.

xiaofan · 31 July 2011

kaiserbill said:
That is a composite Photo Shop (poorly done) as far as I know.

Just found the original picture somewhere in my computer.

kaiserbill · 1 August 2011

Hi Xiaofan

Got anything interesting on your computer about South African projects? I've noticed you have posted excellent material on other threads.

xiaofan · 1 August 2011

kaiserbill said:
Hi Xiaofan

Got anything interesting on your computer about South African projects? I've noticed you have posted excellent material on other threads.

Not mach, most things I get are form Internet, or scanned form some old Chinese magazine, Chinese magazine do have some very good materials, especially some older ones.

curious george · 15 August 2011

Found this pic on a blog, or f/book.If I stumble across it again I'll quiz the owner/poster.

I guess this to be at some undisclosed forward base in either Angola,or the then-SWA(Namibia).Maybe +/- '83 Ops Askari(?)or maybe later,captured FAPLA T's in the forground...

check out left of the T's:
MAN 8 x 8 vehicle(facing) right,with spare just behind cab(obscured by tree)??

Abraham Gubler · 15 August 2011

curious george said:
Found this pic on a blog, or f/book.If I stumble across it again I'll quiz the owner/poster.

I guess this to be at some undisclosed forward base in either Angola,or the then-SWA(Namibia).Maybe +/- '83 Ops Askari(?)or maybe later,captured FAPLA T's in the forground...

check out left of the T's:
MAN 8 x 8 vehicle(facing) right,with spare just behind cab(obscured by tree)??

Great picture. There are quite a few references in various books about the SADF to there being a few West German MAN 8x8s used in the SWA border ops as recovery vehicles. Interesting to see that they were even in their original dark green north west Europe colouring. West Germany provided quite a bit of covert and semi-pvert support to South Africa even after the UN mandatory embargo.

curious george · 16 August 2011

Interesting to see that they were even in their original dark green north west Europe colouring. West Germany provided quite a bit of covert and semi-pvert support to South Africa even after the UN mandatory embargo.

I can confirm that the one I saw in late '87 at my base was the dark green.

Off topic:Incidently so were(colour) the merc 4 x 4 trucks & the odd Gelandewagen.(CSI-add old army browns and "written off" l/rovers,etc) used by CSI(read Unita) for logistics on our side off the border,that also visited the main log base at Rundu.Another aspect that tickles me still:how were the 107mm mrl's(used by recce's & unita) "sourced".Dont think they were used that widely by angolans(?),and Unita were buddy-buddy with the Chinese at one stage)

xiaofan · 16 August 2011

curious george said:
Interesting to see that they were even in their original dark green north west Europe colouring. West Germany provided quite a bit of covert and semi-pvert support to South Africa even after the UN mandatory embargo.

I can confirm that the one I saw in late '87 at my base was the dark green.

Off topic:Incidently so were(colour) the merc 4 x 4 trucks & the odd Gelandewagen.(CSI-add old army browns and "written off" l/rovers,etc) used by CSI(read Unita) for logistics on our side off the border,that also visited the main log base at Rundu.Another aspect that tickles me still:how were the 107mm mrl's(used by recce's & unita) "sourced".Dont think they were used that widely by angolans(?),and Unita were buddy-buddy with the Chinese at one stage)

Off topic about the 107mm mrl's.

In China we call the 107mm mrl's just 107, it is one of three must have things for guerrilla or insurgency forces (other two are the RPG and AK, and just like the RPG and AK, the 107 do showed up in hot sopts), there are a lot of 107 circulating around. Some of them brand new come form China or other countries (there are a few countries build 107 on their own), some are second hand, some of them were been captured on the battlefield. Soviet captured some 107 in Afghanistan and so was Americans in Vietnam, both Soviet and American may have supply these 107 to the friendly forces.

Sine we talking South African prototypes, projects, concepts and 107, I think this picture shold not consider as off topic.

kaiserbill · 17 August 2011

Some further pictures of the Rooikat IFV hull at the Armour Museum.

kaiserbill · 17 August 2011

A few more. Note in the 2nd last pic what appears to be a removable deck, lending credence to the description as a "weapon platform for a variety of uses."

kaiserbill · 17 August 2011

curious george said:
Another aspect that tickles me still:how were the 107mm mrl's(used by recce's & unita) "sourced".

South Africa made a copy of the Chinese 107mm mrl. It was known as the Mechem RO107. Interestingly, they also made a single tube light launcher for use by special forces, probably for use against targets such as airfields.

xiaofan · 17 August 2011

kaiserbill said:
curious george said:

Another aspect that tickles me still:how were the 107mm mrl's(used by recce's & unita) "sourced".

Click to expand...

South Africa made a copy of the Chinese 107mm mrl. It was known as the Mechem RO107. Interestingly, they also made a single tube light launcher for use by special forces, probably for use against targets such as airfields.

You mean somethig similar to this?

Abraham Gubler · 17 August 2011

xiaofan said:
In China we call the 107mm mrl's just 107, it is one of three must have things for guerrilla or insurgency forces (other two are the RPG and AK, and just like the RPG and AK, the 107 do showed up in hot sopts), there are a lot of 107 circulating around. Some of them brand new come form China or other countries (there are a few countries build 107 on their own), some are second hand, some of them were been captured on the battlefield. Soviet captured some 107 in Afghanistan and so was Americans in Vietnam, both Soviet and American may have supply these 107 to the friendly forces.

China provided lots of military support to Tanzania and other African nationalist forces aligned with Maoism instead of Soviet Marxist-Leninism. In the case of Southern Africa this was mostly ZPIRA the military force of Mugabe's fight against Rhodesia. Many 107s would have been captured by Rhodesian Security Forces and their South African allies to provide the SADF with an arsenal.

panzerskool · 18 August 2011

xiaofan said:
curious george said:

Interesting to see that they were even in their original dark green north west Europe colouring. West Germany provided quite a bit of covert and semi-pvert support to South Africa even after the UN mandatory embargo.

I can confirm that the one I saw in late '87 at my base was the dark green.

Click to expand...

The one I saw at Lohatla in 90 was also in the drab west german army green, stood out like tits on a bull amongst the brown tiffy trucks

kaiserbill · 21 December 2011

Here is a video of the Tank Technology Demonstrator, TTD or Loggim(Loggum?), as can be viewed from around page 5 onwards in this thread.

This is the first footage I've seen of this vehicle, photos aside.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Md39hSguc5U

royabulgaf · 5 January 2012

Anybody know anything further about these vehicles below?

Detroit school bus?

kaiserbill · 6 January 2012

royabulgaf said:
Anybody know anything further about these vehicles below?

Detroit school bus?

It would probably have been useful in Detroit. ;D

These were discussed on Page 20 of this thread.
The vehicle on the right is a late Mk1 Hippo with certain Casspir features.
The vehicle on the left is a monocoque Hippo Mk2.

The original Hippo Mk 1 was an early 4X4 mine-resistant infantry APC from the early 1970's.

kaiserbill · 6 January 2012

Post no10 on page 1 of this thread showed a few forlorn Buffel Mk2's obviously put out to pasture. This was a project to completely revamp the original Buffel mine-protected APC into a better protected vehicle, with completely enclosed crew spaces. The major difference is the new upper rear infantry accomodation with armoured roof and hatches and rear egress door, armoured glass with firing ports, hatches above the driver station, and revised storage panniers and absent spare wheel storage.
The Mamba APC was selected as the replacement instead. The pics on Page 1 shows that at least 3 were made.
Below are pictures of the Buffel Mk2 in better days.

kaiserbill · 6 January 2012

Some scans sent to me from a forum member from the now defunct VEG magazine.

These concern the Hoefyster programme to replace the Ratel IFV. I can arrange a translation of the article if anyone is interested.

Mods, let me know if this is in order.

kaiserbill · 6 January 2012

Additionally, below are some PDF's with pictures of the various Hoefyster mock-ups, with actual turrets mounting the originally envisaged 35mm EMAK.

If anyone has a better idea on extracting the pictures in the PDF's below so as to post them in a better viewable manner, please feel free to do so.

JFC Fuller · 6 January 2012

Kaiser,

That is an awesome find, thanks just for posting, it looks like it probably explains the whole Hoefyster programme- I would really appreciate a translation if possible.

kaiserbill · 6 January 2012

sealordlawrence said:
Kaiser,

That is an awesome find, thanks just for posting, it looks like it probably explains the whole Hoefyster programme- I would really appreciate a translation if possible.

A fellow forumite sent it to me, so it's his find. It also shows that there is obviously info out there, which just needs gentle prising out.

I'll get the translation done this weekend Sealord.

kaiserbill · 6 January 2012

Ok, below is my plodding, rustic translation. Anybody out there who would like to try their hand at a better translation is most welcome.

A couple of points.

The text is dealing with the later Ratel replacement programme, named Project Hoefyster (Horseshoe).
It does not deal with any prior South African programmes to this end, of which the Rooikat based IFV/weapons platform from the 1980's shown in this thread and the Ratel replacement thread on the forum shows.

It appears that some of the initial concepts submitted by South African companies for Hoefyster had their roots in such vehicles.

The Springfield Bussing Buffel, built in South Africa and utilising much West German components (MAN), and later developed into the Ratel, is apparently displayed at the gate in Bloemfontein at 1SAI. Any photos of this vehicle would be very much appreciated from any of our South African forum members.
Any info on the South African Technical Corps submission, the SPRINGKAAN vehicle, would be most appreciated too.

The 3 vehicles on top of page 3 are representative of 3 of the 4 vehicles tested, with the exception of the IADSA vehicle. Any info or pics on this IADSA vehicle is most welcome.

Also, the article doesn't portray the anger at the sudden single entry from a foreign company, after the initial competition in which a winner was selected, and the rapid selection of that foreign design. This must be seen in context with the overall South African ANC-led multi-billion dollar arms procurement package at the time, that has been investigated and shown to be rife with kick-backs and corruption, and indeed resulted in jail time for certain politicians and individuals. The investigation has just been re-opened once more.

Either way, here is my translation.

The Replacement of a Legend – Project Hoefyster
Follow-on to the Ratel 6X6 Infantry Fighting Vehicle

A preliminary investigation/research(?) to the acquiring of an Infantry Fighting Vehicle (IFV) by the then SADF, was formulated in 1970, and was followed by a users requirement in March 1971. A number of prototypes were evaluated from the period of January 1972 until October 1972, which included the following:
Unimog 4X4 UR416 (West Germany), code named BOGGEBEES.
Panhard 4X4 M3 (France), code named BOSBOK
Panhard 4X4 M3 (France), code named ONSBOK (Successor/follow on of the BOSBOK)
Panhard 4X4 M4 (France), code named KLONKIE
Berliet 4X4 VXB, (France), code named BOESMAN
MAN Bussing 6X6 (West Germany), code named BUFFEL
Engesa 6X6 from Brazil
The Technical Service Corp of the SADF also developed a vehicle called the SPRINGKAAN, which also took part in these trials.
Most of these vehicles are on display at 1 South African Infantry Battalion (the BUFFEL at the front gate on the right), or at the Tank Museum at the School of Armour.
The BUFFEL, which was accommodated(?) by MAN of west Germany, was manufactured in South Africa by Springfield Bussing, and was found to be the most suitable vehicle, measured by the users requirement. The vehicle was then further developed into the Ratel, which was first seen in public in 1976. More than 1200 of these highly reliable – and much loved – vehicles were manufactured and is still to this day in service with the South African Army. Vehicles were also exported to Morocco and Jordan, as well as other countries in Africa.
Time, and the ongoing development of warfare, has eventually started to catch up with the Ratel, and it became obvious that a replacement should start to be looked at. Some of the new requirements were:
Troops must deploy from behind the vehicle.
Improved ballistic protection.
Improved mine protection.
Improved internal space.
Improved firepower
Improved mobility to be able to keep pace with the then new generation tank and armoured car.

Also, spare parts and components, particularly the drivetrain (engine and gearbox) were starting to become difficult due to the age of some of the components, due to much lighter and smaller engines and gearboxes available on the market.
Project HOEFYSTER was registered in the late 1990’sby the SANDF to fullfill the new requirements. This was issued out to and answered by the various South African Defence Industry companies. Armscor granted contracts in 2002 to 4 of these South African companies. These contracts covered the development stage, and manufacturing of a full scale steel model, of a concept that must meet all the requirements of Project HOEFYSTER. The following companies participated in this stage:
Industrial Automotive Design SA (IADSA)
Land Mobility Technologies (LMT)
Mechanology Design Bureau (MDB)
Vickers OMC (Olifant Manufacturing Company) – now known as BAE Land Systems OMC.
LIW (Lyttleton Ingenieur Werk), now Denel Land Systems, was at the same time contracted by Armscor to develop the turret for these vehicles, equipped with a 30mm or 35mm gun. The full-scale vehicle models are on display at 1 South African Infantry Battalion (1SAI) and are presented in different configurations.( The OMC and LMT models are equipped with turrets developed by Denel following a contract with Armscor.)
LMT’s concept (middle, figure 1) scored the most points during the Armscor evaluation. An international request for examples for the purchase of 264 HOEFYSTER vehicles was then issued by Armscor. This vehicle would come in 5 different variations and would equip 3 mechanised infantry battalions of the South African Army. For various reasons, only one vehicle supplier, Patria Vehicles of Finland, reacted to this next request, with the AMV 8X8 vehicle.

(This next bit I’m struggling with)
This supplier ensured the silence of Denel (head contractor and turret provider), LMT (engineering, including mine-proofing, ILS, and special manufacturing), and BAE Land Systems OMC (hull manufacturing, integration, and field support.) The flat bottomed anti- mine protection system which was developed under contract from Patria by LMT, is manufactured by Patria’s subsidiaries in Finland for the Finnish army.
Patria Vehicles is part of the Patria Group, and was successful with winning of contracts for the 8X8 AMV vehicle in Poland (690 vehicles) and Slovenia (minimum 200 vehicles). This vehicle is the only 4th generation vehicle of it’s sort which is in production and has (uithaler?) mobility and protection. A range of different weapon stations - or turrets – can be carried, depending on the chosen variant. The specifications of this vehicle is as follows:
Length 7,7m
Height over hull 2.3m
Width 2,8m
Track width 2,5m
Fighting weight 26 000kg
Max speed over 100km/h
Vertical slope 60%
Voor oorsteking (trench?) above 2m
Diepte gang (?) 1500mm
Fighting Range 800km
Engine 360kW
Gearbox Automatic 7 forward, 1 reverse
Suspension Independent double wishbone with hydropneumatic stops (adjustable height)
Crew driver, vehicle commander, section commander (in turret), gunner (in turret) and 7 section members in the back.
Characteristics:
150 liters of water that is chilled to 16c for crew use
Unique back door and ramp combination for storage of platoon weapons
Airconditioner and chemical biological unit that keeps air clean by filtering it during chemical/biological attack.
Flat hulled mineproof protection system
Unique equipment storage provision for every individual member
High ballistic protection
Vehicle is completely amphibious when it weighs less than 22 000kg at a speed of 10km/h.
The first vehicle, known as E1, was in 2004, and was tested at various locations successfully.

JFC Fuller · 6 January 2012

Kaiser,

Thanks for that, it certainly answers some questions, it raises some more but it certainly goes some way to explaining the different vehicles we have seen.

kaiserbill · 6 January 2012

No problem Sealord.

I have an article on the Olifant tank by the same forum member which was sent to me, the pictures of which were already posted on the thread. I'll post it shortly.

Do any of our forum members have some, or the full set of VEG magazines? They seem to contain some very interesting articles.

robunos · 6 January 2012

If anyone has a better idea on extracting the pictures in the PDF's below so as to post them in a better viewable manner, please feel free to do so.

...working on it, watch this space...

cheers,
Robin.

kaiserbill · 6 January 2012

Thanks Robin.

curious george · 8 January 2012

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=oa.10150579901205797&type=1

While not necessarily prototypes per se,these "esoteric" vehicles were very few and far between and belonged to the 44 para brig "pathfinder company".Maybe someone can kindly post pics or supply a link to similarly modified vehicles used by the "recce's".(A 5 Recce commando stayed over in our base once,vehicle's incl mog's with 106's rc/14.5mm x 2 kpv,or 23mm x 2,not sure as they were covered,casspirs and kwevoel log vehicles.That was '86/7,so memory a bit hazy.)

curious george · 8 January 2012

Ok, more of the net from various sources.This category of vehicle isnt by its nature documented/pictured very often,not many made or in "production",so my apologies if this is a highjack!

Weirdest "once-off" mod/"technical" I saw was the Grootfontein "deurgangs"kamp(transit camp) in July'
86.This was quite a normal civvy-looking merc truck with 85mm B10,etc mounted at the back of the loadbed.Two, polite,but scary looking bearded dudes in attendence,being "roofs"(noobs)we opted to stay away(far away).

CostasTT · 8 January 2012

curious george said:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=oa.10150579901205797&type=1

While not necessarily prototypes per se,these "esoteric" vehicles were very few and far between and belonged to the 44 para brig "pathfinder company".Maybe someone can kindly post pics or supply a link to similarly modified vehicles used by the "recce's".(A 5 Recce commando stayed over in our base once,vehicle's incl mog's with 106's rc/14.5mm x 2 kpv,or 23mm x 2,not sure as they were covered,casspirs and kwevoel log vehicles.That was '86/7,so memory a bit hazy.)

Thanks for the link. Besides the Unimogs, what else did they use? Land Rovers or Land Cruisers? With all the mods it's difficult to identify the base vehicle.

curious george · 8 January 2012

http://newsite.ipmssa.za.org/content/view/492/28/

You'll find some interesting recent pics here,especially of eg bridge-layer(discussed in earlier posts),"plof-adder" Casspir,other demining vehicles,etc;

and...

...101bn SWATF "test driving"(2nd left).

curious george · 8 January 2012

CostasTT said:
curious george said:

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=oa.10150579901205797&type=1

Thanks for the link. Besides the Unimogs, what else did they use? Land Rovers or Land Cruisers? With all the mods it's difficult to identify the base vehicle.

Click to expand...

Hi Costas,according to Graham Gilmore's book,"Pathfinder Company:the Philistines", they rebuilt/modified both types.

curious george · 8 January 2012

Hi,

this was app taken Iraq a few yrs ago.I never saw any of these in real life,how many were actually produced or taken into servive?

curious george · 8 January 2012

Limited production production(?)SF vehicles circa late 80's,early 90's?Anyone with info?Lets save some history here...(pics are almost all from "open" f/book groups)

BAT (Mechem) based on MB Gelandewagen.

(cant remember name of other type of weapons carrier-too late at night)shares platform with Mfezi field ambulance.The guy with the scratch build model,was a intel specialist who wrote "Jamstealers",and got a mention in SF Andre Diedericks's "Journey without bounderies".

curious george · 8 January 2012

More oddities:Rotrax prototypes

curious george · 8 January 2012

More Rotrax,interesting Samil 20 rec varient towing current SF Wasp vehicle,more Okapi pics and a deployed EW Ratel,all of which are very unusual/rare..

curious george · 8 January 2012

Non-military:landmines dont discriminate...

South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.

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