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Author Topic: SNCASE (Sud-Est) Postwar flying boat projects  (Read 25399 times)

Offline Jemiba

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SNCASE (Sud-Est) Postwar flying boat projects
« on: September 26, 2006, 03:21:13 am »
One of the French post-war projects for a large flying boat was the SE.1200. Just
the scaled down manned model, designated SE.1210 flew. Of the SE.1200 at least one
turbo-prop powered derivative was planned. Still yet, Iíve just got one drawing, but I know, that in number X of the Aviation Francais Magazine an article was published. Unfortunately when I subscribed, this issue was already sold out. Anyone, who could provide me with a
scan ?     
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 07:33:08 am by Stargazer2006 »
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline Archibald

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Re: SNCASE (Sud-Est) Postwar flying boat projects
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2006, 04:45:55 am »
I live near the town of Biscarosse, which has a Flying boat museum (I visited it two times, first time in 1993 and last time in august of this year). The museum is based here because of the former Latecoere plant...
I still have the book of the visit, and they briefly mention the SE-1200. It has to weight around 300 tons or so!
 These projects were the ultimate derivatives of the SE-200 (ex Liore&Olivier H-49) of which 3 examples were build and flew until 1950.
 Le fana de l'aviation also mention the SE-1200 in its article on the SE-200 (1998). I have to check this magazine, there's some datas about the SE-1200 if i remember well.
cheers
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Offline Archibald

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Re: SNCASE (Sud-Est) Postwar flying boat projects
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2006, 05:08:08 am »
Here we are

There's some projects between the SE-200 and SE-1200

SE-104
Long-range transatlantic flying boat (9 tons of cargo+ 70 passengers)
empty weight 43 tons
MTOW 107 tons
6*2600hp engines

SE-200C (AkA SE-1100 )
SE-014 derivative with a MTOW of 120 tons. Engines were HS 24Z or Gnome&Rhone 28T (those were coupled  HS 12Z and Gnome Rhone 14R ultimate french-piston engines of the 1940-1950 era)

SE-1200
Improvement of the SE-1100 with, once again, more MTOW...(not sure of the 300 tons number it seems a bit exagerated!!)



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Offline Skybolt

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Re: SNCASE (Sud-Est) Postwar flying boat projects
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2006, 07:07:00 am »
Any idea if these projects started during war-time in aticipation of post-war traffic surge?

Offline Jemiba

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Re: SNCASE (Sud-Est) Postwar flying boat projects
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2006, 12:02:42 pm »
Chillon, Dubois and Wegg say in "French Postwar Transport Aircraft", that the
SE.1200 project started "in he late forties". The data they give for the Se.1200:
span 61m, lenght 47,9m, MTOW 140.000 kg with 22.000 payload, powered by 8
3000hp Arsena l24H, turboprops were considered. The SE.1300 is said to have
been another flying boat project, a direct relation to the 1200 isn't mentioned,
the only detail given is the MTOW of 180.000 kg. And no drawings .....  :(
Lots of projects to explore !
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline Archibald

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Re: SNCASE (Sud-Est) Postwar flying boat projects
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2006, 02:22:24 pm »
Wait I minute, maybe I know what kind of turboprops were considered. From "Le fana de l'aviation" but also a Pdf on SNECMA I downloaded some weeks ago (I was searching info on the Atar-103, Atar-104 Vulcain and the like)
I think about the TA-1000 which had to develop 4000 ch.(seems logical compared to the Arsenal 24H and its 3000 hp)
 According to the Pdf, SNECMA started the development in 1948 but  renounced due to the high complexity of the engine.

Other candidate could be the TG1A bis from SOCEMA. It developed 2500 hp...
I can send you the Pdf if you are interested (it's in french!)
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Offline Archibald

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Re: SNCASE (Sud-Est) Postwar flying boat projects
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2006, 02:25:32 pm »
and yes, Skybolt according to Le Fana these projects date back from 1941-1944 era.
The SE-200, Late-631 and Cams-Potez 141  flew in late 1942. They were later seized by the Germans and ferried to the Constance lake, in the extreme south of Germany. There, they were destroyed by a - still mysterious-  RAF attack at the beginning of april 1944...
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Offline Skybolt

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Re: SNCASE (Sud-Est) Postwar flying boat projects
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2006, 02:33:29 pm »
Well, more topics for my projected site on wartime civilian projects... Thanks! Uh, and I understand French fairly well  ;D D'you have my e-mail?
Last question, pardon me: any idea if SNCASO joined the scene with some very-heavy transport projects post war, after their experiance working with Zeppelin?

Offline Jemiba

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Re: SNCASE (Sud-Est) Postwar flying boat projects
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2006, 09:02:57 pm »
".. Constance lake, in the extreme south of Germany. There, they were destroyed "
The CAMS 141 was sunk by USAF Mustangs during an attack on a seaplane base in
the Baltic, I think. There was an article in a magazine some years ago, mentioning, that
it was mistaken for long with the Bv 238, which was actually sunk in Lake Schaal in
northern Germany.
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline Archibald

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Re: SNCASE (Sud-Est) Postwar flying boat projects
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2006, 03:25:35 am »
QUOTE- Last question, pardon me: any idea if SNCASO joined the scene with some very-heavy transport projects post war, after their experiance working with Zeppelin?QUOTE

The answer to your question has a name, the Armagnac. It was a plane quite similar to the DC-6, powered by R-4360 engines. The plane was a derivate of a transatlantic  project of WWII.
Air France refused it because it was not very comfortable (the number of windows was too scarce, the flour had different levels). As a consequence, the few aircafts produced were used by privates companies, flight test centers and the like until the 60's.
Some of these plane were used as engine testbed (including the
TF-306E of the Mirage IIIV, F2 and G).
Good link here (as you can read french :) )

http://www.aviafrance.com/aviafrance1.php?ID=609&ID_CONSTRUCTEUR=0&ANNEE=0&ID_MISSION=0&MOTCLEF=armagnac

According to Le Fana, there's a real mystery around the destruction of the SE-200 and Late -631 in april 1944 on the constance lake.

Et voila! I made a mistake!
There was two CAMS-potez, the 141 and 161. The 141 was amaritime patroller, the 161 was the competitor to the LAte 631 and SE-200. So the 161 was destroyed with them in the Constance lake...
Aviafrance again...
http://www.aviafrance.com/aviafrance1.php?ID=8074&ID_CONSTRUCTEUR=1058&ANNEE=0&ID_MISSION=0&MOTCLEF=
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Offline Skybolt

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Re: SNCASE (Sud-Est) Postwar flying boat projects
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2006, 06:40:42 am »
Quote
The answer to your question has a name, the Armagnac.

Uh, yes, I know the Armagnac!  :D Beutiful plane, with a distinctive  personality.. Same class of the Breda BZ.308.
What I had in mind was some really BIG plane (or seaplane). SE-1200 class.

Offline Jemiba

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Re: SNCASE (Sud-Est) Postwar flying boat projects
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2006, 12:28:38 pm »
The heavy transport seemes to be a type of aircraft, France wasn'tmuch interested in
after the war. The only type coming to my mind is the SNCAC NC.211 Cormoran and it's
pre-project, the still larger NC.210. And, of course, the Breguet projects, but these
were mainly designs from the early '40s.
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline Archibald

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Re: SNCASE (Sud-Est) Postwar flying boat projects
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2006, 01:32:19 pm »
You're perfectly right, Jemiba! It's the same thing for the bombers (no 100 tons V-bombers equivalent on this side of the channel :( )
The heavier bomber project was the Mirage IVB (around 60 tons) and it was quickly cancelled...
To my mind, France never had the money nor the engines to make big aircrafts. The Late-631 stay the bigger 100% French aircraft...
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Offline Skybolt

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Re: SNCASE (Sud-Est) Postwar flying boat projects
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2006, 08:20:20 am »
Quote
The heavy transport seemes to be a type of aircraft, France wasn'tmuch interested in
after the war. The only type coming to my mind is the SNCAC NC.211 Cormoran and it's
pre-project, the still larger NC.210. And, of course, the Breguet projects, but these
were mainly designs from the early '40s.

Marvellous, and where I can find 3-views etc on these giants ? I'm waiting for Les Paquebots Volants by Lariviere, already ordered, but other sources (books, etc.)?

Offline Jemiba

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Re: SNCASE (Sud-Est) Postwar flying boat projects
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2006, 08:39:47 am »
Sorry, I just can give you the Cormoran, perhaps, if you'll eventually get
those Paquebots, you think of me  ?   ;)
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...