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Author Topic: Hawker designation list  (Read 31929 times)

Offline PeterW

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Re: P1035
« Reply #30 on: December 25, 2015, 11:54:03 am »
Thanks Hesham, that's more information in a few hours than I had found in twelve months. Have I at last found the home of serious research?  :)

Reading Paul MM/Barrie Hygate's recent book on the final Camm fighters, the approach taken by Hawker's Project Office would explain the multiple answers to the question "what did P1035 look like?"

The answer depends on which design iteration we what to pick as definitive, and I guess after the passage of time, how reliable we consider the data we are presented with. Apologies if it is obvious somewhere on the forum, but can you explain the 'source grade' convention being used? - I've seen grades 1 - 4 used to date.

As I understand it, none of the sketches in the 2008/9 mails claim to have Hawker provenance, so however well conceived, they are speculation.  The text posted by Smurf is tantalising...  For me it says that the bifurcated exhaust takes us into P.1040 territory. That just leaves the question of tricycle or Fury undercarriage. I've also seen some text elsewhere which inferred that the 'early' P1035 has Attacker style intakes. It is credible that the wing mounted intakes and exhausts were conceived together, as they would each have had significant engineering impact on the centre section structure.

Until seeing Smurf's post, the best clues I had were on Wikipedia where someone has posted '  In the final years of the Second World War, Hawker's design team explored jet engine technology, initially looking at "stretching" and modifying the existing Hawker Fury/Sea Fury planform fitting a mid-engine Rolls-Royce Nene jet engine and moving the cockpit to the extreme front of the fuselage, creating the P.1035. With encouragement from the Air Ministry, the design was altered substantially, with the wing losing the elliptical shape of the Fury and featuring wing-root air intakes and short bifurcated jet exhausts (which gained the name "trouser legs"). This redesign culminated in building the private venture P.1040'
 

It sounds like seven years after these posts there is still an appetite to get at the full story. Another whole can of worms is the Malcolm (ML) ejection seats installed in the five related Hawker jet prototypes P1040 - P1081. Paul has just sent me one of Barrie's side views, and I have the late Graham Carter's book on ML plus my own cockpit photos of VX272 at Cobham Hall, but so far as I can find there are no surviving designers from that period. Live history has slipped into recorded history, and what's not recorded is gone!
Best regards
Peter


Offline robunos

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Re: Hawker designation list
« Reply #31 on: December 25, 2015, 03:34:05 pm »
How the 'Source Grade' system works, by the inventor thereof...

http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=2809


cheers,
            Robin.
Where ARE the Daleks when you need them......

Offline PeterW

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Re: Hawker designation list
« Reply #32 on: December 26, 2015, 01:35:42 am »
Thanks Robin
It would be good if this were adopted more extensively in publications, perhaps in time?
Peter

Offline Boxman

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Re: Hawker designation list
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2016, 11:33:17 am »
Here is June 1950 British Pathé newsreel film of the sole Hawker P.1081 (VX279) taxiing and in flight, along with footage of test pilot T.S. "Wimpy" Wade in the cockpit briefly describing the aircraft. Sadly, Wade would perish in this very same aircraft on April 3, 1951.

YouTube - British Pathé Selected Originals - London Airport - Jet Fighter (1950)
Description "Selected originals (offcuts, selected scenes, out-takes, rushes) for story "London Airport - Jet Fighter" - 50/51."

Offline hesham

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Re: Hawker designation list
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2017, 08:22:53 am »
Hi,

the main Hawker & Hawker Siddeley series from 1940 to 1978 were;

- P.1000 from 1940,raised up to P.1163,after that the prefix changed into HS,from HS.1170 up
  to HS.1207

- P.122 after absorbing Blackburn in 1960,continued to P.161

- SP.63 also after purchased Blackburn in 1960,went on up to SP.90 (maybe)

- HS.131 up to HS.149,after taken over De Havilland in 1960,called Hatfield division

- HS.800 blew up to HS.837,after acquired Avro to became Manchester subsidiary

- HSA,APD & APG,all were the same,started from HSA.1000 and last known HSA.1023

Offline ursrius

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Re: Hawker designation list
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2018, 02:32:59 pm »
Hesham,
Thanks for the summary: I have just a few comments

Quote
- P.1000 from 1940,raised up to P.1163,after that the prefix changed into HS,from HS.1170 up
  to HS.1207
Agreed, though according to BSP2, Project numbers P.1161, 1162 and 1164 to 1169 were not used. When everything finally came under the Hawker Siddeley banner, the Kingston project numbering began with HS. BAe reverted to the P prefix from P.1208 on.

Quote
- P.122 after absorbing Blackburn in 1960,continued to P.161
Although it can be difficult to decide exactly when a Brough project can be considered Blackburn or Hawker Siddeley, I believe they should be considered as Blackburn designs up to P.138. Hawker Siddeley continued the same P series. Again it is difficult to decide when a project is HS or BAe, but I think P.161 would be correct. The P sequence was then continued by BAe up to P.183, after which all Brough projects were integrated into the Kingston project numbering system.

Quote
- SP.63 also after purchased Blackburn in 1960,went on up to SP.90 (maybe)
Interesting - I have no information on the Brough SP series other than the SP.80 Helicrane, otherwise the B.118A. I would really like to see anything on this series (along with source info)

Quote
- HS.131 up to HS.149,after taken over De Havilland in 1960,called Hatfield division
Agreed

Quote
- HS.800 blew up to HS.837,after acquired Avro to became Manchester subsidiary
According to Project Tech Profile 04 - The Air Staff and AEW, Chris Gibson, the HS.836 was a 1978 design, so BAe projects begin with BAe.836 and Hawker Siddeley ends at HS.835, with the exception of HS.860, a variation on HS.806.

Quote
HSA,APD & APG,all were the same,started from HSA.1000 and last known HSA.1023
Personally I have only ever seen these as APD. It would be great if anyone has a list of these.

Great work Hesham, thanks for a good summary.

Offline hesham

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Re: Hawker designation list
« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2018, 05:00:34 am »
Thank you my dear Ursrius,

Quote
Agreed, though according to BSP2, Project numbers P.1161, 1162 and 1164 to 1169 were not used. When everything finally came under the Hawker Siddeley banner, the Kingston project numbering began with HS. BAe reverted to the P prefix from P.1208 on.

we can say unknown Projects,or missing papers.

Quote
Although it can be difficult to decide exactly when a Brough project can be considered Blackburn or Hawker Siddeley, I believe they should be considered as Blackburn designs up to P.138. Hawker Siddeley continued the same P series. Again it is difficult to decide when a project is HS or BAe, but I think P.161 would be correct. The P sequence was then continued by BAe up to P.183, after which all Brough projects were integrated into the Kingston project numbering system.

maybe that's right.

Quote
- SP.63 also after purchased Blackburn in 1960,went on up to SP.90 (maybe)

after SP.60 & SP.62 nothing was known,except in BAe age,there was SP.105,SP.110 and
later SP.113.

Quote
According to Project Tech Profile 04 - The Air Staff and AEW, Chris Gibson, the HS.836 was a 1978 design, so BAe projects begin with BAe.836 and Hawker Siddeley ends at HS.835, with the exception of HS.860, a variation on HS.806.

agreed.

Quote
HSA,APD & APG,all were the same,started from HSA.1000 and last known HSA.1023

I hope so,I know only APG.1003,APD.1017,APD.1019,APD.1022 & APD.1034.








Offline Schneiderman

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Re: Hawker designation list
« Reply #37 on: January 23, 2018, 09:02:55 am »
Re: Hawker designations and 'unused' project numbers. We should remember that as we go through the 1950s and 1960s these companies were often working on a few non-aviation projects, and these may well explain the apparent gaps in the Hawker numbers. That is certainly the case with Folland and Short numbering, probably for others too.

Offline ursrius

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Re: Hawker designation list
« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2018, 12:42:05 pm »
Quote
after SP.60 & SP.62 nothing was known,except in BAe age,there was SP.105,SP.110 and
later SP.113.

Hesham, thanks - can you post any information on these, or, better still point to a source.

Quote
I know only APG.1003,APD.1017,APD.1019,APD.1022 & APD.1034.

I have nothing on APG.1003 or APD.1022 - care to share?

Chris Gibson, in 'Nimrods Genesis', refers to Hawker Siddeleys advanced projects organization as the Advanced Projects Group and details the APG.1011, otherwise known as the HS.1011 and similarly for 1010 as APG.1010/HS.1010 and APG.1023/HS.1023. Other than 'introducing' the APG designation, the HS designation is the one he uses mostly. Richard Payne, in 'Stuck on the Drawing Board', refers to the HS.1010 and HS.1011, while Derek Wood in 'Project Cancelled' refers to the Type 1011!
Finally, Chris Gibson and Tony Buttler, in 'British Secret Projects: Hypersonics, Ramjets and Missiles', refer to Hawker Siddeleys advanced projects organization as the Advanced Projects Department, and give details for APD.1017, APD.1019 and APD.1034.

My personal opinion is that the correct designation would be either APD or APG, with the HS designation being used in marketing/brochures. What do any drawings state?

Quote
Re: Hawker designations and 'unused' project numbers. We should remember that as we go through the 1950s and 1960s these companies were often working on a few non-aviation projects, and these may well explain the apparent gaps in the Hawker numbers. That is certainly the case with Folland and Short numbering, probably for others too.

Possibly also they just decided to start the HS series at a 'round number', i.e. HS.11170.

Offline Schneiderman

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Re: Hawker designation list
« Reply #39 on: January 23, 2018, 02:03:19 pm »
Possibly also they just decided to start the HS series at a 'round number', i.e. HS.11170.
That sounds reasonable but my suggestion was actually a thought regarding your earlier reply to Hesham......."Agreed, though according to BSP2, Project numbers P.1161, 1162 and 1164 to 1169 were not used"

Offline gwiz

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Re: Hawker designation list
« Reply #40 on: January 24, 2018, 02:47:27 am »
The Advanced Projects Group grew out of HSA's bid for Concorde, then studied the possibilities for what might be flying twenty years down the road.  Think their drawings were numbered APD-10xx (AP Drawing), but the projects were normally referred to as P.10xx.  This was a completely separated series from the main Hawker numbering system.  Project work tailed off from about 1971, after the death of Hugh Francis, and the Group morphed into the HQ Research Dept, overseeing all HSA research work.

Offline hesham

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Re: Hawker designation list
« Reply #41 on: January 24, 2018, 04:42:52 am »
My dear Ursrius,

the source for SP later series is the report ; BEYOND THE HARRIER - KINGSTON
V/STOL PROJECTS 1957-1988

and for APG.1000 & APG.1003;

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2435.msg238681.html#msg238681

Offline ursrius

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Re: Hawker designation list
« Reply #42 on: January 24, 2018, 12:42:42 pm »
Quote
for APG.1000 & APG.1003;

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2435.msg238681.html#msg238681

Thanks Hesham for that link. The APD/APG question is thoroughly covered in that series of posts.

Quote
the source for SP later series is the report ; BEYOND THE HARRIER - KINGSTON
V/STOL PROJECTS 1957-1988

Hesham, thanks for reminding me about this SAE document. I do have it but had quite forgotten.

Offline hesham

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Re: Hawker designation list
« Reply #43 on: January 24, 2018, 03:20:12 pm »
OK my dear Ursrius.

Offline ursrius

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Re: Hawker P.xxxx Project List
« Reply #44 on: March 06, 2018, 06:28:38 pm »
The P.1210, 1211 and 1215 were Brough projects, IIRC. They will also have Brough numbers in the P.160 range - I think P.1215 was also the P.163.

I will PM you the list of article illustrations.

Looking at Buttler's BSP-Fighters, it would appear that the use of two type numbers between Kingston and Brough for the same project only occurred in the Hawker Siddeley days. Once it became British Aerospace, this practice appears to have stopped. The P.163 and P.1215 were very different looking aircraft