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Author Topic: MBT-80 British German  (Read 44568 times)

Offline JAZZ

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MBT-80 British German
« on: September 22, 2006, 06:23:15 pm »
There is little detail about the MBT-80 a British and german effort to find a replacement MBT, evetually they went their own ways. Any better photos than this out there?

Offline amsci99

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Re: MBT-80 British German
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2006, 08:40:31 am »
JAZZ,

Surprising very little information is available. Actually the project you are looking for is the Anglo-German Future MBT. The picture you have attached is the FV-4601 or MBT-80 (replacement for the Cheiftain Tank) which is the follow up after the failure of the Anglo German Future MBT. Some information is available at http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/7413/fv4601_mbt80.html

Offline JAZZ

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Re: MBT-80 British German
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2006, 01:30:31 pm »
amsci99 thanks for that information, did the MBT-80 bring anything through (e.g. hull) from the British/German programme? 

Offline Kugelblitz

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Re: MBT-80 British German
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2008, 12:39:38 pm »
Have another pic of this one (info seems to be nonexistent).

Offline JohnR

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Re: MBT-80 British German
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2008, 04:38:30 am »
By the looks of it, it doesn't have its Chobham armour fitted.

One of the strange features of the MBT80 I have read is that the gun was to be offset in the turret.  But I would have thought that that would have caused problems for the training gear.

Offline amsci99

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Re: MBT-80 British German
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2008, 02:10:52 am »
Wonder if the Tank Museum at Bovington has any information, of course given the UK Official Secrets Act which has a span of 50 years, we shall find out more in another 22 years or so, along with the constituents of Chobham armour.

Offline Geoff_B

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Re: MBT-80 British German
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2008, 04:08:36 am »
In the JagdChieftan thread there is a link to a webshots site on the reserve collection hall at Bovington which appears to include this prototype as well as some others such as the British S-Tank style demonstrator.

G

Offline Stuart Galbraith

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Re: MBT-80 British German
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2008, 11:37:42 am »
Ive been looking into the history of the development of Challenger1, and it seems fairly clear to me that MBT80 and the Anglo German Tank Project are 2 different things. AGTP seems largely based around fixed fighting compartment machines, or fairly similar to the Swedish S tank. The British army evaluated them for a while to see if it would adequately fulfill their needs in West Germany. Needless to say it didnt.

The Germans had a similar concept which I think was based on Leopard1 hulls, and at least one (I think several) had 2 twin gun 120mm smoothbore guns. I think the concept was to find a way round the problem of the distance you needed to slew a gun onto target, though I admit my understanding of this is shaky. The British version was based around Chieftain components fitted to a purpose built chassis, again with a fixed fighting compartment, but it was envisaged, with only one gun.

This fell through for a number of reasons. I dont think West Germany or Britain had their heart in a joint programme anyway (Germany it will be remembered got its fingers burnt with MBT70), and Britain evaluated the fixed gun tank in a survey of various replacements for Chieftain. If I recall correctly it scored even less than an upgraded Chieftain in the evaluation (which Im assuming was Shir1/Khalid).

Britain went to MBT80 when it was clear that AGTP wouldnt amount to anything. I would have to check the dates, but if memory is right, this would be about 1976-77. We played with the concept for a few years, evaluating engine concepts and building the 2 test rigs you see here. But they never actually built a prototype, and it was clear rather than getting something for 1980, it would be more like 1990. By 1980 I think the MOD were seriously looking for alternatives, and by 1981 the decision had been made to use a machine based upon the development work for Shir2. Which of course became challenger 1.

MBT80 was due to be fitted with a hunter killer sight, similar to Challenger2, and for various reasons ive a suspicion the turret is related to that fitted to Vickers Mk7 and that of Challenger2. But it would be tough to prove it. No the MBT80 doesnt have chobham fitted, and quite likely it never did.

If there is a link between MBT80 and 'JagdChieftain', it would be the use of aluminium components in the hull. I gather it was quite extensive in both of these, and the reason for Jagdchieftain surviving at all was due to them wanting to test corrosion of aluminium hulled vehicles. I gather there was some ghastly steel-aluminium sandwhich contruction invovled in the MBT80 which was prone to cracking.

Hope this helps. There are some far better informed people than myself who discussed this on tanknet.

http://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php?showtopic=24864&hl=jagdchieftain

Online Kadija_Man

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Re: MBT-80 British German
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2008, 11:58:14 pm »
Wonder if the Tank Museum at Bovington has any information, of course given the UK Official Secrets Act which has a span of 50 years, we shall find out more in another 22 years or so, along with the constituents of Chobham armour.

The Official Secrets Act has no such span.  There is however, separate security regulations which allows the government to classify information under certain time spans before their release for publication, usually 10, 20, 30 or 50 years. 

Offline amsci99

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Re: MBT-80 British German
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2008, 02:54:05 am »
The Official Secrets Act has no such span.  There is however, separate security regulations which allows the government to classify information under certain time spans before their release for publication, usually 10, 20, 30 or 50 years. 

rickshaw,

I stand corrected and thank you for pointing out the error.

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: MBT-80 British German
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2008, 11:09:22 am »
Indeed, and declassification isn't automatic, if the information is deemed still sensitive it can be retained indefinitely.
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: MBT-80 British German
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2008, 07:11:57 am »
Anyone near Kew in London might want to look at the National Archives. Here's a few files that might be interesting. You can use your digital camera to copy records without charge.

DEFE 48/1076     Cost effectiveness of Chieftain, Challenger and MBT 80 (Main Battle Tank 80)
DEFE 24/1369     Chieftain tank replacement (Main Battle Tank - MBT 80)
DEFE 70/143    Future Main Battle Tank (MBT 80): armament; Trilateral assessment
DEFE 70/207    Replacement of Chieftain Tank (Future Main Battle Tank - MBT 80): policy
DEFE 70/208    Replacement of Chieftain Tank (Future Main Battle Tank - MBT 80): policy
WO 194/1967    A development cost plan for a Main Battle Tank: Project - MBT 80
WO 194/1973    Main Battle Tank (MBT) 80 mobility study with various engines
WO 194/2001    The electrical system and electronic equipment for Main Battle Tank (MBT) 80
DEFE 15/2210    A joint UK / FRG study prepared by RARDE Fort Halstead and IABG Ottobrunn of a new German concept for a future Main Battle Tank
DEFE 48/240    Study of future main battle tank options to replace CHIEFTAIN
DEFE 48/161    Future main battle tank trial evaluation
DEFE 48/280    Future main battle tank parametric studies
DEFE 48/544    Future main battle tank parametric study: value of increased mobility
DEFE 48/545    Future main battle tank trial evaluation, part one: Federal Republic of Germany scenario with and without guided weapons
DEFE 48/546    Future main battle tank trial evaluation, part two: UK scenarios 1 and 3
DEFE 48/547    Future main battle tank trial evaluation, part three: UK scenario 4, the night battle
DEFE 48/548    Investigation of differences between Defence Operational Analysis Establishment and IABG results in the future main battle tank M48 trial guns
DEFE 13/1368    Main Battle Tank: Anglo-German collaboration    1969 Jan 01 - 1970 Dec 31
DEFE 13/1369    Chieftain tanks: engine problems and improvements; main battle tank armour development (Burlington) proposed collaboration with Germany
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Offline JFC Fuller

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Re: MBT-80 British German
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2011, 08:09:39 am »
Based on the few bits and pieces that I have come across in relation to this programme it seems likely that had MBT-80 gone ahead it would probably have looked alot like challenger 1 but incorporating some of the lessons from FV4211, and perhaps a different turret incorporating a more capable fire control system and associated sensors.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2011, 08:14:00 am by sealordlawrence »

Offline xiaofan

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Re: MBT-80 British German
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2011, 08:54:28 pm »
Found this on Arcane Fighting Vehicles by Graham Matthews

"MBT-80 was Britain's unilateral programme to produce a Chieftain replacement following the termination of the Anglo-German FMBT project.

99SP27 is currently (2002) at Bovington.

The hull, identified as ATR 2, was an automotive test rig of which it has been said "could only have come out of Chertsey" (FVRDE/MVEE). It is constructed of steel and aluminium in an effort to save weight: steel at the front, aluminium at the rear with a sandwich layer of stainless steel between the two to overcome the impossibility of welding steel and aluminium together. Cracks are apparent at the rear of the vehicle where side and rear plates meet.

Unfortunately the turret and hull of 99SP27 do not belong together.

The turret was part of a research programme to study offset mounts. If successful it may have found its way into MBT-80.

The turret that is closely related to what would have been inside MBT-80 is the Weapon System Demonstrator (WSD), formerly the Fire Control Rig (FCR),which is also at the Tank Museum. This is mounted on a FV4030 hull.

When MBT-80 was cancelled the FCR turret continued on as a Research Programme at MVEE Chertsey (1984-RARDE Chertsey) where, amongst other things, various gunner's two axis stabilised sights from UK manufacturers were trialled. These sights were with the rig when the MBT-80 project stopped, so in all probability the winning design would have found its way onto MBT-80. The commander's cupola was stabilised in traverse and the sight mirror stabilised in elevation. As part of the programme the commander also received a Panoramic, Thermal Imager, Laser Integrated (PANTILI) Sight. As the title suggests this was a 360 degree rotating thermal imager fitted with a CO2 (Carbon Dioxide) laser. This was fitted on the loaders side of the roof, but the images were available to both the commander and gunner in much the same way as M1A2 now has CITV. Pantili now resides at the Aldershot Military Museum and WSD has a wooden mockup fitted. Internally the FCR had a digital databus linking the main sub systems. The Fire Control Computer processing was fully digital and by the mid-80's the Gun Control Equipment processing was all digital too. For field trials the turret was originally fitted to a Chieftain hull, but as the programme progressed it later transferred to the hull it is now on at Bovington. The turret is actually a FV4211 turret, presumably because the interior would have been similar to MBT-80 (if one was ever to be built). Should you see the WSD at Bovington you will notice thick vertical plates mounted on the turret front either side of the gun, these are simply ballast weights to raise the inertia of the turret to represent that of an armoured turret. "

http://arcaneafvs.com/fv4601_mbt80.html

« Last Edit: April 06, 2011, 08:56:36 pm by xiaofan »

Offline JFC Fuller

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Re: MBT-80 British German
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2011, 01:19:21 am »
Yes seen that, there is also a very brief mention in 'Cold War: Hot Science' where it references the FV4211 as being part of the conceptual lineage. The reasons for cancellation appear to be a combination of programme delays and the Iranian cancellation of the Shir-2 programme which meant that Vickers was going to be left without tank work for several years. So MBT-80 was cancelled and the Shir-2 was reworked as the Challenger 1 to keep Vickers going.