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Author Topic: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties  (Read 40679 times)

Offline T-50

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Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« on: September 28, 2009, 01:25:02 pm »
 Hello guys I'm searching for never build Fokker project developed in the late 30ties,for example the G-2 a successor to the Fokker G-1 and i believe Fokker has all so plans for an 4 engined bomber.I know that Fokker was all so working on a successor of the D-21 and D-23 fighters with a retractable under carriage and a Merlin or DB601 engine with a enclosed cockpit!
Could someone please provide me with info/pictures of this projects? it would be marvelous if someone can!
Thanks in advance
 best regards T-50

Offline Pepe Rezende

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2009, 06:17:10 pm »

Offline Jos Heyman

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2009, 06:55:38 pm »
The G.2, or type 154, or CG.16 (all the same aircraft) was an aircaft which was to be powered by RR Merlin engines. It looked like a T.VIII with a redesigned nose and a faired over center cockpit covering. The proposal was made in 1937 and was not built.

Offline T-50

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2009, 12:45:28 pm »
Hello guys I Must say its very interesting stuff especially the G-2 projects I'm very pleased ,Did some one of you have some info about the successor of the D-21 and D-23?
I thank you for the info about the G-2
cheers T-50

Offline airman

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2009, 02:36:48 pm »
The Fokker T.7 seems really  wateraircraft variant of  Fokker T.5  :o :o :o
http://www.dutch-aviation.nl/index5/Military/index5-1%20T7W.html
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Offline Apophenia

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Offline Jemiba

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2009, 09:37:04 pm »
"The ontwerp 115 also looks impressive."

Would rather like to post just a link to the now sadly gone airwarfareforum,
as there quite a number of dutch projects could be found including the T.VI/
design 115. The drawing was said to be an original manufacturers drawing.
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline airman

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2009, 02:28:08 pm »
Wow, Jemiba thanks for this new image of Fokker T.VI  : surely was a good project !
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Offline airman

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2010, 07:31:48 am »
So Fokker TV, like Fokker XXIII , had an interesting deveploment projects : from " Dutch Profile Fokker Tv"  i have seen there was three variant projects :
 T.V-A - variant trasport for 21 soldiers , T.VI  with more powerful  Bristol Hercules of 1375 Hp with 480 km/h  - there was also a Project 115 of 1934 for a four engines bombers with this designation  , and T.VII  that seem little more great  !
Other things : Possible operators for T.V was Sweden for 9 airplanes , Spain ( october 1935) , Siam (3), Iran and Greece (12).




post your contribute if you have more informations about projects derived from T.V!
« Last Edit: May 08, 2010, 07:44:32 am by airman »
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Offline lark

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2010, 11:30:00 am »
Please see Jemiba's contribution in:

'Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from
the late 30ties'..

Offline Antonio

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2010, 12:46:27 pm »
Topics merged

Offline airman

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2010, 02:14:23 pm »
Topics merged

thanks, than , about T.V, T.VII was a watercraft variant of T.V, T.VI a more powerful variant of T.V with  Bristol Hercules of 1375 Hp and his designation  is shared with name of four bomber project 115 of 1934.
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Offline airman

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2010, 02:24:05 pm »

"Fokker Design 119 Prototype
The first Fokker heavy bomber was the Design 115, a bomber adaptation of F.XXXVI civil airliner, updated.
The second is a further expansion of the idea, brought to flying status.

Twin Nose / tail turrets, single dorsal turret and ventral dustbin, all 7.92mm. 10,000lb bombload. Structure is built to take +4,100lbs in future expansion, which is expected to be heavier arms and armor . Current max weight 62,486

1934-5 Heavy Bomber
stats are loaded
Rough field capable
Crew : 6
Powerplant : 4 x Jumo 211A 1,085hp inline
Armament : Equipped with 2 x 7.92mm MGs and a dorsal turret with 2 7.92mm MGs, radio.
Armor : 10mm armor disk
Payload : 10,000 lbs official (14,100lbs unofficial)
Range : 1,620nm at 150kts
Rate of climb : 473 fpm
Loaded Stall speed : 69kts
Ceiling : 20,500 ft
Max speed : 209kts (240 mph) @ 13,000
Corner speed : 118kts, 6.6 deg/ sec
Weight (max) : 62,486 (66,700) lbs
Cost : $224,000
Wing Span: 124 ft Length: 78 ft. Wing Area: 2,164 ft2
Wingloading : 31lbs/ ft2 loaded"
found on
http://www.wesworld.jk-clan.de/thread.php?postid=61717

speculation or not ?  ???
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Offline lark

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2010, 12:41:27 pm »
Kaiser Kirk is mixing up fact and fiction...

Offline Jos Heyman

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2010, 06:07:46 pm »
Getting back to D22 and D23:
D22 was a version of the D21 with a retractable undecarriage. It was not built.
The D23 was a twin engined, twin boom fighter of which the first and only one flew on 39 May 1939.

Hope this helps

Offline lark

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2010, 11:26:25 am »
In September 1937 Fokker produced the new designs  Ontw.150
and Ontw.151.These had a radial-Bristol Hercules- and an
in line -DB 600H or RR Merlin - engine respectively.
These parallel and completely new designs attracted the
the interest of the ML and were soon referred to as D.22.

In  June 19 1939 a data sheet appeared mentioning a D.21
with a Bristol Perseus engine and six guns.
On June 22 , a D.24 data-sheet appeared with exactly the same information .
Notes on a drawing of Ontw.150 ( see drawing presented by Hesham)  indicates
that it could have been a modification of that type.

The D.24 should have been Fokker Ont.192. 

Several sources:Nederlandse Vliegtuig Encyclopedie-Fokker D.XXI
                      Air Enthusiast Nr. 95
                      Fokker D.21 Collection d'Avions
                      Fokker Vliegtuigen-Collection De Alk
                      Hufo Hooftman book collection about Dutch aviation.

Offline Bailey

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2010, 12:14:01 pm »
Thanks Lark...at least I haven't gone completely round the bend yet then  :D

Cheers Bailey
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored" - Aldous Huxley.

Offline lark

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2010, 01:10:02 pm »
My pleasure Bailey :)

If you ever find your source ,I'm interested..

Offline mz

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2010, 01:48:00 pm »
So, any reason why Fokker was so left behind? The D.XXI was their best fielded fighter and it had fixed undercarriage. Was it because of lack of aluminium expertise, so they built wood- and fabric planes which didn't work well at high speeds? No advanced glues or Mosquito style mold built sandwich structures yet available at that point?

Offline hesham

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2010, 06:20:33 am »
Hi,

the P.126 was a project of 1935 for low-wing three-seat
light bomber.

Offline Tophe

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2012, 03:37:33 am »
Thanks to Lark, speaking Dutch, I have been directed to the book "Fokker G-1" (Lanasta publication*). From profiles in it, I drew slanting views of the projects Ontwerp 179 (Design 179) of 1939. Much more is included, but out of my special scope on 1939-45 years (for updating my "forked ghosts" site http://cmeunier.chez-alice.fr/update_FG.htm ).

  *: http://www.lanasta.com/Shop/product/121/fokker-g1-le-faucheur.html

Offline airman

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Offline Justo Miranda

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Offline richard

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2012, 02:19:11 am »
From " Handbuch der Luftfahrt 1936 " :




Offline hesham

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2012, 09:22:29 am »
Hi,


T.6W  was a developed version of T.V,fitted with two Bristol Hercules engines.
T.7W  was a twin-engined torpedo recce floatplane,never built.
B.5     was a long range three-engined recce,torpedo and bombing flying boat.
D.24   was a single seat fighter,I spoke about it before.


Offline Jemiba

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2012, 09:21:33 pm »
Good find Hesham, can you tell us the source for further reading ?
To my opinion, the B.5 bears more than a superficial resemblance to the
Do 24, apart from the wing floats substituting the stub wings. Maybe for
patent reasons ?
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline richard

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2012, 12:10:47 am »
Bonjour


Here , you will find the story : ( please , look at " development")


www.fly.to/do24

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2012, 02:46:51 am »
Thanks for that link, interesting reading !
As it seems, the very similar layout really was just the result of the requirement.
And Fokker even had prepared a design with stub wings, so avoiding license fees
couldn't have been high on the priorities !
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline Jos Heyman

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2012, 03:09:12 am »
 In 1935 Fokker designed the B-V reconnaissance flying boat for the MLD (Dutch Naval flying service) as a replacement for the Dornier Wal. No aircraft were ordered and no aircraft was built.

Offline hesham

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2012, 06:36:42 am »
Good find Hesham, can you tell us the source for further reading ?
To my opinion, the B.5 bears more than a superficial resemblance to the
Do 24, apart from the wing floats substituting the stub wings. Maybe for
patent reasons ?


OK my dear Jemiba,


here is the source;


http://www.dutch-aviation.nl/index5/Military/index5-1%20Fokker%20Military%20Aircrafts.html

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2012, 11:23:43 am »
Greta site, thank you !
All the early types are shown there, too.
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline T-50

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2012, 01:22:20 pm »
I believe the D-24 was a aircraft project comparable with aircraft such as the BF-109 and Spitfire and Curtiss P-40
It was planned with an daimlerBenz or Merlin engine,its configuration was a low wing fighter with retractable undercarriage.
 enclosed cockpit was also planned!

Offline Arjen

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2012, 04:44:26 am »
Peter de Jong's recently published 'Fokker D.21', pages 81-82, mentions two Fokker designs, 150 (Bristol Hercules) and 151 (DB600 / RR Merlin). Both were low-wing, retractable gear fighters. According to De Jong, if just one of these designs had been built, it would have been designated D.22. In the event, neither was built. In the unlikely event of sufficient funds being around for both to be built, one might have been the D.22, the other the D.24 - D.23 already being assigned to a push-pull prototype.


The D.24 designation was used much later for a joint Fokker-Republic project, the D-24 Alliance. In my opinion, the D.24 designation probably was not considered for any pre-war design.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2012, 04:51:14 am by Arjen »

Offline Alcides

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2012, 06:32:03 am »
Arjen please do you have a bigger picture?

Offline Arjen

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2012, 06:59:07 am »
Certainly. Reply #3, 6th picture. http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,15830.msg153890.html#msg153890

PM me for a bigger scan.

Offline Alcides

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2012, 07:53:18 am »
Wow!!! How I missed that thread? Maybe I've got more to the aerospace section. Thanks a lot!!!


Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #36 on: October 24, 2012, 08:40:22 am »
Wow!!! How I missed that thread? Maybe I've got more to the aerospace section. Thanks a lot!!!

Well, "Aerospace" means basically that the aircraft was procured and serviced, as opposed to projects/prototypes/research aircraft. That doesn't mean it's not old or little-known!

Offline hesham

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2013, 08:22:52 am »
Bonjour


Here , you will find the story : ( please , look at " development")


www.fly.to/do24


From that site,which was mentioned by my dear Richard,the Fokker B.V and B.VA
projects.

Offline toura

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2013, 08:56:53 am »
Hi all
From an old " le Fana de l'aviation"

Offline hesham

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2013, 01:56:46 pm »
Great my dear Toura,


and here is the Fokker G.2 and T-6 or T-VI from that site;
http://www.nederlandseluchtvaart.nl/forums/f13-fokker/vreemde-fokker-g-1-a-8837/


also a drawing to G.1 variant,but I don't know this one.

Offline Apophenia

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2013, 02:26:56 pm »
Hesham: A photo of a mockup identical to your third drawing appears in Aircraft in Profile, Vol 6, no 134, pg. 192, 'The Fokker G.1'. But author Bart van der Klaauw identifies this as "A mock-up of the proposed G-2 under construction in the Fokker plant". The thing is, van der Klaauw himself identifies the G-2 as a DB600-powered aircraft and this mockup is clearly fitted with Mercury engines.  ::)

Offline hesham

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #41 on: January 14, 2013, 03:27:35 pm »
Thank you my dear Apophenia.

Offline lark

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #42 on: January 16, 2013, 01:26:44 pm »
There is confusion about the Fokker G.1 design with glazed nose.

Hugo Hooftman in Vol II of the Nederlandse Luchtvaart Enclyclopedie -Fokker G.1- describes
this aircraft as a G.1 bomber. He claimed to be the first to published a drawing of it.
(early seventies of the past century)

In the new book about the Fokker G.1 (Lanasta ) the four authors had an other opinion.
Translated from the book.
...It was a planned reconnaissance variant of the G.1 based on the  'ontwerp 179'.
   A  early production G.1 was fitted with a glazed nose mock up but not flown.
   Interest in the reconnaissance G.1 vanished in 1939...
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 12:25:30 pm by lark »

Offline hesham

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #43 on: June 04, 2013, 10:10:33 am »

...It was a planned reconnaissance variant of the G.1 based on the  'ontwerp 179'.
   A  early production G.1 was fitted with a glazed nose mock up but not flown.
   Interest in the reconnaissance G.1 vanished in 1939...


My dear Lark,


that means the Ontwerp 179 had a different drawing ?.

Offline lark

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #44 on: June 05, 2013, 07:49:02 am »
Indeed, projected in 3 variants based on the G.1 design.

Offline hesham

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #45 on: June 05, 2013, 09:20:05 am »
Thank you my dear Lark.

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2014, 07:53:47 am »
here is the Berny Konings flying boat project


If it's not a Fokker, why post it here?

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #47 on: February 17, 2014, 10:24:34 am »
If it's not a Fokker, why post it here?

Indeed, please always look for the most appropriate topic. It'll save time for the admins and moderators and
avoids chaos for allmembers in our threads.
The Konings flying boat can now be found here : http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,19188.msg212310.html#msg212310 

If there's just a single picture or part of information, such generic threads are more suitable, than a new one,
at least in ms cases. 
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline hesham

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #48 on: February 26, 2014, 02:10:56 pm »
Hi,


you feel with those artist drawings to Fokker G.1,it was different from we have,
a little.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 09:18:13 pm by Jemiba »

Offline Jos Heyman

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #49 on: February 26, 2014, 05:06:35 pm »
The first drawing is indeed nothing more than an artist fantasy. I am not aware that the US was ever considering the G.1.
The second drawing is, as indicated, a Koolhoven vision and does not belong in this topic. Koolhoven iis definitely not Fokker.

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #50 on: February 26, 2014, 09:35:51 pm »
That's always the crux with photos or drawings showing a mix of types. I've made a cut-out
from that "Twin-Tail Fokker Attack Plane" and replaced the other, maybe misleading picture with it.
Nevertheless I'm not sure, if it really is a ground attack version of the G.I, or just an interpretation
made by hearsay.
BTW, is that fancy G.I in US colours from Popular Mechanics, too ?
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline hesham

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #51 on: February 27, 2014, 03:59:29 am »
My dears Jos and Jemiba,


I will ask about the second picture.

Offline lark

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #52 on: February 28, 2014, 05:21:12 am »
Interpretations with much artistic freedom I guess...
Should be interesting to know the timeframe and source..

Offline hesham

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #53 on: February 28, 2014, 07:28:29 am »
Interpretations with much artistic freedom I guess...
Should be interesting to know the timeframe and source..


My dear Lark,


the second picture was an artist drawing to attack version of Fokker G.1,made by
Popular Mechanics in April 1937;
http://www.jitterbuzz.com/MAN_1937_04.html


but I heard that,there is an attack version of G.1,and took the "P" designation,is
that right ?.


For the first picture,I am sorry,I put it wrong from few months as a Fokker G.1,
but it was unknown fighter aircraft,Probabaly from USA,and appeared in the
book; An Airplane in Every Garage,please can we open a new topic for it,it
was not related to Fokker G.1;
http://ehangar.com/forum/your-collection/guss-collection-of-originals/page-4/

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #54 on: February 28, 2014, 10:23:57 am »
it was unknown fighter aircraft,Probabaly from USA,and appeared in the
book
; An Airplane in Every Garage

NO. The site doesn't say that at all.

It says that the artist, known as Ted Grohs, is also known for his work on that 1958 book, which is substantially different.

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #55 on: February 28, 2014, 10:46:39 am »
The 1958 book quoted above was by Daniel R. Zuck, who designed the 1947 Plane-Mobile.


http://www.biblio.com/books/688883135.html
http://www.aerofiles.com/zuck-art.jpg

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #56 on: February 28, 2014, 02:11:57 pm »
Thank you Stargazer,


but what about the second aircraft,I heard there was attack version from G.1,but
I want a confirm about this.

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #57 on: February 28, 2014, 05:00:36 pm »
The Fokker G-1 was a 'jachtkruiser', something that loosely translate as 'fighter cruiser'. I would place it roughly in the same category as the Bell XFM-1 Airacuda and the Martin XA-15 that we have discussed elsewhere.
I do not know what missions the 'jachtkruiser' flew but I also doubt that anybody can properly explain the difference between a 'fighter' and an 'attack' aircraft, other that the first one is supposed to 'attack' other fighters, and the second one is supposed to fight 'ground' operations (pun definitely intended).

As far as the P designations are concerned, I know the Fokker projects were designated with the letter P but there was no P designation for adopted Fokker aircraft designs. A further explanation of the Fokker designations is in Aerofiles.
There is also an interesting description of the G-1 in 'De Nederlandse Vliegtuigen', by Theo Wesselnk and Thijs Postma, and nothing in there indicates a different attack version.

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #58 on: March 01, 2014, 03:22:52 am »
From 1938 through early 1940, Sweden was negotiating with Fokker to acquire G-1 aircraft. These would have been different from the ones in Dutch service. In Swedish service, the aircraft would have been designated B-7 - 'B' for 'Bombplan'.

In early 1940, Fokker proposed an aircraft that would have carried one 250 kg bomb internally/one 350 kg bomb externally, as well as four 50 kg bombs carried under the wings. A contract had been prepared for 18 aircraft, but was never signed. A follow-on order for 77 aircraft was planned, 12 of which would have been S-13 reconnaissance aircraft - 'S' for 'Spaningsplan'.

Source: 'Fokker G-1 jachtkruiser - deel 1' by Frits Gerdessen, Karel Kalkman, Cor Oostveen and Willem Vredeling, Lanasta 2011.

I think the Swedish aircraft would have qualified as attack aircraft.

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #59 on: March 01, 2014, 04:07:05 am »
Thank you my dears very much,


and for Stargazer,was the twin boom fighter artist drawing a real design or just
a hypothetical ?,someone in that site,suggested the aircraft was from Lockheed,
and developed from XP-38,but we have all early Lockheed Models,also I have all
early "L" and "V" series,and nothing in them.


http://ehangar.com/forum/your-collection/guss-collection-of-originals/page-4/


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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #60 on: March 01, 2014, 07:42:43 am »
Well, it's described as "similar to the G.I", so it seems at least clear, that there actually
is no connection to Fokker. There's post suggesting, that it is just a fictional type, as many
details, like inlets or exhausts are missing completely.
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #61 on: March 01, 2014, 07:46:08 am »
May be you're right my dear Jemiba.

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #62 on: March 01, 2014, 12:12:30 pm »
and for Stargazer,was the twin boom fighter artist drawing a real design or just
a hypothetical ?

This painter did a series of commercial works depicting real types but this is obviously something he did for a company.

The only company that I've seen his name associated with during the 1940s is Consolidated (he did illustrations for them).

someone in that site,suggested the aircraft was from Lockheed,
and developed from XP-38,but we have all early Lockheed Models,also I have all
early "L" and "V" series,and nothing in them.

You have ALL early Lockheed models? No kidding? All the Ls? All the Vs? Not even a number missing, such as L-127 or V-301??
Then DO share it, by all means. I think that's what we've all been doing on this forum, sharing knowledge.
If you have the complete early Lockheed listings and keep them to yourself it's not quite the spirit of this forum...

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #63 on: March 01, 2014, 01:45:36 pm »
Stargazer,


of course not all of them,but most of them,and for L-127 and V-301,they are still
missing,and for sharing info,I did that,but slowly,I can't send in one week or one
month all of those projects or anther projects from other companies,that's impossible,
for many reasons.


For Convair company,may be it was for it,many of its designs are unknown.

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #64 on: March 02, 2014, 02:26:13 am »
If we can get back to the G-1 ;), on the Dutch Aviation Forum, on which our friend Hesham also posts, a correspondent named Fogg suggested on 28 February 2014 that the picture of the 'attack' G-1 presented to us by Hesham, is a poor drawing f the G-1 on display at the Paris air show, and labelled incorrectly.

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #65 on: March 02, 2014, 01:07:31 pm »
Frits Gerdessen & Co  in the  mighty G.1 book published by Lanasta -The Netherlands, mentions
five versions of the basic G.1. Among them is a ground attack variant.
But for the recce. version with the glazed belly cupola, there are no
external differences  in the plane layout for the other versions.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 01:10:16 pm by lark »

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #66 on: March 02, 2014, 01:38:50 pm »
Frits Gerdessen & Co  in the  mighty G.1 book published by Lanasta -The Netherlands, mentions
five versions of the basic G.1. Among them is a ground attack variant.
But for the recce. version with the glazed belly cupola, there are no
external differences  in the plane layout for the other versions.


Great info my dear Lark,


but had it gotten a "P" series ?.

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #67 on: March 03, 2014, 12:15:06 pm »
As far as I found Hesham , Fokker did not use the 'P' designation
in relation to the G-1.

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #68 on: March 03, 2014, 02:03:08 pm »
Thank you my dear Lark.

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #69 on: March 25, 2014, 06:27:01 am »

"Fokker Design 119 Prototype
The first Fokker heavy bomber was the Design 115, a bomber adaptation of F.XXXVI civil airliner, updated.
The second is a further expansion of the idea, brought to flying status.

Twin Nose / tail turrets, single dorsal turret and ventral dustbin, all 7.92mm. 10,000lb bombload. Structure is built to take +4,100lbs in future expansion, which is expected to be heavier arms and armor . Current max weight 62,486

1934-5 Heavy Bomber
stats are loaded
Rough field capable
Crew : 6
Powerplant : 4 x Jumo 211A 1,085hp inline
Armament : Equipped with 2 x 7.92mm MGs and a dorsal turret with 2 7.92mm MGs, radio.
Armor : 10mm armor disk
Payload : 10,000 lbs official (14,100lbs unofficial)
Range : 1,620nm at 150kts
Rate of climb : 473 fpm
Loaded Stall speed : 69kts
Ceiling : 20,500 ft
Max speed : 209kts (240 mph) @ 13,000
Corner speed : 118kts, 6.6 deg/ sec
Weight (max) : 62,486 (66,700) lbs
Cost : $224,000
Wing Span: 124 ft Length: 78 ft. Wing Area: 2,164 ft2
Wingloading : 31lbs/ ft2 loaded"
found on
http://www.wesworld.jk-clan.de/thread.php?postid=61717

speculation or not ?  ???


My dear Airmen,


sorry for long time to respond,but I know the Ontwerp or P.119 was a fighter,or D.XX,
are you sure about that info ?.

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #70 on: March 27, 2014, 06:19:43 am »
A variant of de Fokker D.XIX (or D.19) with an
air cooled radial engine was put on paper and it is possible
(but not sure !) that the designation D.XX was alloted to this design.

 From : Peter de Jong in 'Fokker D.21' Lanasta.The Netherlands.
 
Ontwerp 119 was an other fighter design ,but very few info exist about it.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2014, 12:46:09 pm by lark »

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #71 on: March 27, 2014, 06:27:13 am »
Thank you my dear Lark,


and I have the P.119 in my files,as a fighter also a heavy bomber,and may be
the number re-allocated.

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #72 on: March 28, 2014, 06:18:37 am »
Hesham,
 
I dont know where you have the Fokker  'P'  designator  have from.
Never saw that in publications about Fokker exept when they worked
in cooperation with VFW...

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #73 on: March 28, 2014, 06:34:21 am »
and I have the P.119 in my files,as a fighter also a heavy bomber,and may be
the number re-allocated.

I dont know where you have the Fokker  'P'  designator  have from.
Never saw that in publications about Fokker exept when they worked
in cooperation with VFW...

A few minutes before hesham posted about this project, I posted an article on the Boulton Paul P.119. Maybe poor hesham got confused...  ::)

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #74 on: March 28, 2014, 06:35:05 am »
My dear Lark,


I meant by suffix "P" the project or Ontwerp,and the problem is still there,
we don't know exactly what was Ontwerp 119,fighter or heavy bomber ?.

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #75 on: March 28, 2014, 06:39:39 am »
I meant by suffix "P" the project or Ontwerp

But you see, hesham, the problem is you can't simply use the "P" letter like that if the manufacturer didn't use it. It's a source of confusion for others!

It was mostly used by German and British manufacturers.

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #76 on: March 28, 2014, 07:41:59 am »
Better explanation than mine.. !
"P" and "Ontwerp" is not the same...
 
« Last Edit: March 28, 2014, 07:44:15 am by lark »

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #77 on: March 28, 2014, 08:29:49 am »
Better explanation than mine.. !
"P" and "Ontwerp" is not the same...


OK my dear Lark,


and what about Ontwerp 119 ?,I get answer from anther site,it was a single seat
fighter,probably D.XX.

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #78 on: March 28, 2014, 12:49:16 pm »
I'll take a look for ontwerp 119 tonight Hesham.

For de D.XX (D.20) see reply # 71 please.

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #79 on: March 28, 2014, 02:25:17 pm »
Thank you my dear Lark.

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #80 on: March 28, 2014, 02:55:32 pm »
Maveric listed Ontwerp 119 as a 1934 fighter project and Nederlandse Luchtvaart mentions a Hispano Suiza Xbrs engine. The Hispano Suiza Xbrs was a Kestrel alternative for the D.XIX. Could that be Ontwerp 119?
http://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1935/1935%20-%200188.PDF

BTW, I note that a proposed license-produced Kestrel-powered D.XIX by Airspeed was designated AS.19. Probably just coincidence ...
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1951/1951%20-%200354.html

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #81 on: March 28, 2014, 03:03:07 pm »
Good notice my dear Apophenia,


and we also will wait the search from my dear Lark.

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #82 on: March 29, 2014, 03:46:46 am »
A bit additional info about Ontwerp 119.
Apparently in connection with the D.XIX and 112 , ontwerp 119 was projected later in 1934.
No drawing is known and information is scarce,mainly concisting of climb data.
It must have been a monoplane and with Hispano Ybrs engine, an attractive model.
* F.Gerdessen in : Interwar Projects.
                              Fokker 'Paper' Fighters.
AE.No.95 Sept-Oct. 2001
 
P.S.  Ontwerp 112 was a low wing monoplane with liquid cooled engine-part of the D.21 development line.
 

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #83 on: March 29, 2014, 04:43:39 am »
Excellent my dear Lark,


and many thanks,and I knew Ontwerp 112,but I hadn't no details.

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #84 on: May 16, 2014, 07:59:43 am »
From Air International 11/1986,


here is the Fokker T.V early concepts,plus T.VA and production aircraft drawings.

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #86 on: January 23, 2017, 04:55:46 am »
Hi,

the G.3 was developed from G.2 as I know,was that right ?.

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #87 on: January 24, 2017, 05:48:19 am »
The G.3 project was not a direct development of the G.1.
(initial) ontwerp 129)

Ontwerp 186 to revised jachtkruiser spec. April 1939
became the G.3 on June 7 1939.

It was a twin engined design , with a single twin finned tail.


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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #88 on: January 24, 2017, 07:19:48 am »
Thank you my dear Lark,

it was a heavy fighter Project.

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #89 on: January 25, 2017, 05:13:12 am »
Hi,

during 1930s,a Dutch Air Force announced for a competition to develop a three-seat
recce/bomber airplane,the Fokker responded by Ontwerp 126,no other tenders were
known ?.

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #90 on: January 27, 2017, 07:59:57 am »
Hi,

the Fokker Ontwerp 125 was a recce flying boat Project of 1935,powered by two
815 hp Gone-Rhone 14K engines.

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #91 on: January 28, 2017, 04:27:04 am »
Hi,

the Fokker Ontwerp 146 was a three engined recce flying boat Project of 1937,no
more details are known ?.

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #92 on: January 29, 2017, 04:38:46 am »
Hi,

the Fokker Ontwerp 149 was a trainer and light bomber Project of 1937,powered by two
engines.

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #93 on: January 31, 2017, 07:27:56 am »
In my files;

the Fokker B.VI was a passenger transport amphibian Project of 1929.

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #94 on: February 01, 2017, 05:13:59 am »
Hi,

the Fokker Ontwerp 171 was a passenger transport/medium bomber monoplane
Project of 1939.

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #95 on: February 02, 2017, 05:44:00 am »
Hi,

the Fokker Ontwerp 185 was a fighter-bomber Project of 1939,no more details
are known.

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #96 on: May 28, 2017, 08:01:39 am »
From advertisement about the book; Fokker G-1 jachtkruiser Deel 1

here is a three Fokker Projects,Ontwerp 129,184 & 187.

http://www.letletlet-warplanes.com/2011/08/29/fokker-g-1-jachtkruiser-deel-1/

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« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 03:02:00 pm by hesham »

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Re: What was this Twin-Boom Fokker Project ?
« Reply #99 on: February 04, 2018, 07:51:37 am »
een tweemotorige Fokker luchtkruiser ;)
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Offline Schneiderman

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Re: What was this Twin-Boom Fokker Project ?
« Reply #100 on: February 04, 2018, 09:30:42 am »
The source for the drawing is here (Dutch Ministry of Defence)

https://nimh-beeldbank.defensie.nl/beeldbank/indeling/detail/start/26?q_searchfield=fokker+tekening

It doesn't tell us much more other than it is dated 1939

Plenty more images on that site too, you can download them for ~10
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 09:41:53 am by Schneiderman »

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Re: What was this Twin-Boom Fokker Project ?
« Reply #101 on: February 04, 2018, 11:00:29 am »
een tweemotorige Fokker luchtkruiser ;)

Twin engine Fokker aircruiser, sound like heavy Battle aircraft to me.
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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #102 on: February 04, 2018, 11:29:42 am »
As the original poster on nederlandseluchtvaart wrote - it looks like two T.9 fuselages with a push-pull pod in the joining section. Not much else to say for now.

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #103 on: February 04, 2018, 12:03:33 pm »
Could be an April Fools joke. With two T.9 fuselages and only 2 piston engines, it looks very underpowered. Couple that with the atypical swept wing...

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #104 on: February 04, 2018, 12:25:25 pm »
The original T.9 flew on two Bristol Hercules engines. The only engines of the period (1939-1940) I can think of that could provide marginally enough power would be the He 119's DB 606 or the RR Vulture. I agree the swept wing looks very fishy - although that might be connected with such a heavy 2000 hp+ pusher engine that far back.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 12:33:15 pm by Arjen »

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #105 on: February 04, 2018, 02:56:01 pm »
Thank you my dears.

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Re: What was this Twin-Boom Fokker Project ?
« Reply #106 on: February 05, 2018, 06:49:47 am »

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #107 on: February 05, 2018, 07:27:12 am »
Maybe, but what we really need is for someone to buy a download copy and read the title box. Not me though, I'm still working my way through British projects.

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #108 on: February 05, 2018, 01:17:28 pm »
Arjen, FYI the R-2600 engine which powered the Boeing 314 and a number of other aircraft produced 1600hp in its original configuration, and got up to 1700hp in some of its later variants, so it was at least the equivalent of the Hercules and was in use earlier.

AlanG

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #109 on: February 05, 2018, 02:45:06 pm »

 A bit more info.

 "Luchtkruiser" design study only.
 Fokker drawing 47992 May 1939

Few information is available since the ' Luchtkruiser' concept was already outdated in 1939.
Ontwerp number (design number) is not known but could be (NOT sure) 185.
Only one original drawing remains.

Some details.

construction : all metal.
weight : 10 tons
max. speed : 450 km/h
engines : RR 'Merlins' , Junkers Jumo or Daimer-Benz. No type numbers known.
               all engines of at least 1100 Hp.
armament : two guns of unspecified type in the 2 noses
                  4 Mg's in the tailbooms.
bombload max. 2000kg
crew : 2 pilots & 6 gunners also acting as  observer , radioman etc.
development time 2 a 3 years

What ever the reason  for this design was is not known since it was to  expensive
to construct and at the time already  obsolete.

Translated and abridged from : 'Een Opmerkelijk Ontwerp' - (A Remacable Design)
By Frits Gerdessen in the Dutch magazine " Luchtvaart " - (Aviation) of May 1998 - page 47.



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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #110 on: February 05, 2018, 03:10:13 pm »
Could if have been a coupled engine arrangement? The prop diameter seems awfully large.

Offline hesham

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #111 on: February 05, 2018, 03:12:45 pm »
Amazing work my dear Lark.

Offline Arjen

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #112 on: February 05, 2018, 11:46:47 pm »
@ACresearcher: I'm better acquainted with European engines of the period, but I was aware that some US engines of comparable power were available. Thank you for providing an example.
@sienar: coupled engines such as the DB606, which is essentially two DB601s bolted together. Coupled Merlins seems to have been one of Fokker's options, given Gerdessen's text.

My point was there were engines with enough power available, but two Hercules engines would not have been sufficient.

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ir
« Reply #113 on: February 08, 2018, 06:03:16 am »
Cruiser study project 1939.
More info.

Span: 72ft.0 in.(22m))
Length: 54ft.6 in.(16,60m)
height: 12ft.9in.(3,90m)

Based on this dimensions , one could possible calculate the prop diam.
No info about coupled or double engines.

Source : Air Enthusiast  No.95 p.44

Besides , the 'Ontwerp' number is certainly not '185' since this was a Fokker G.1 version with a
gun position on the back of the fuselage. Perhaps a turret.
Project  was planned for use in the ,then, Dutch East Indies.

Source : Luchtvaartkennis (Aviation Kwowledge)  Dutch Branch of Air Britain. Year 57 issue 2/2008 p.72

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #114 on: February 08, 2018, 06:27:16 am »
Thank you my dear Lark,

but there was still Ontwerp 184 ?.

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Re: ir
« Reply #115 on: February 08, 2018, 03:06:10 pm »
Cruiser study project 1939.
More info.

Span: 72ft.0 in.(22m))
Length: 54ft.6 in.(16,60m)
height: 12ft.9in.(3,90m)

Based on this dimensions , one could possible calculate the prop diam.
No info about coupled or double engines.

Source : Air Enthusiast  No.95 p.44

Besides , the 'Ontwerp' number is certainly not '185' since this was a Fokker G.1 version with a
gun position on the back of the fuselage. Perhaps a turret.
Project  was planned for use in the ,then, Dutch East Indies.

Source : Luchtvaartkennis (Aviation Kwowledge)  Dutch Branch of Air Britain. Year 57 issue 2/2008 p.72

Works out to around 11.5ft, so a bit larger than the contemporary 3-bladded props on the spitfire and 109, but also about two feet shorter than the props on the He-177.

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #116 on: February 09, 2018, 05:03:58 am »
Thanks Sienar,

Hesham,

The Fokker 'Ontwerp' 184 was an other fighter cruiser study for the
Dutch East Indies AirForce.

It used the gun nose and the wing planform of the G.1 ,but instead of wood, it was
of all metal construction.

Not a a twinboom , it was a single fuselage concept with a
twin fin  tail.
Two  flexible gun positions on the back and below , behind the long cockpit.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2018, 05:06:08 am by lark »

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #117 on: February 10, 2018, 07:20:20 am »
OK my dear Lark.

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Re: What was this Twin-Boom Fokker Project ?
« Reply #118 on: February 17, 2018, 08:36:15 am »
Hi,

who can ID this ?;

http://www.nederlandseluchtvaart.nl/forums/showthread.php?40376-Welk-toestel-is-dit

I downloaded the full-size image from NIMH for personal use.
https://nimh-beeldbank.defensie.nl/beeldbank/indeling/detail/start/26?q_searchfield=fokker+tekening
Unfortunately, no 'Ontwerpnummer' because that's where the image is cropped. Title box probably names this as 'Studie-ontwerp', forum-member LVA-40 on nederlandseluchtvaart.nl writes this design did not reach 'Ontwerp-nummer'-stage.
Image redrawn in Inkscape, then exported as JPG.
<edit> added some of the panel(?) lines
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 02:01:34 am by Arjen »

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #119 on: February 17, 2018, 03:39:57 pm »
Thank you my dear Arjen,maybe it was just drawing number only.

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Re: What was this Twin-Boom Fokker Project ?
« Reply #120 on: February 17, 2018, 09:51:15 pm »
Image redrawn in Inkscape, then exported as JPG.

Thank you, Arjen for your efforts and sharing of the result! Very clean and attractive.
I wonder, why vertical empennage doesn't presented on the frontal view - on the original drawing?

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #121 on: February 18, 2018, 12:51:21 am »
I was tempted to add elements that I thought were missing, the vertical fins in the frontal view were missing in the original. In the end, I only added a trim tab to the starboard aileron.

I left out centre lines in what was, in some places, a sometimes vague and crowded drawing. I probably should not have omitted some of the barely visible lines. The three bomb silhouettes in the fuselage (no room there - is that in the engine pod?) I only realised were there when I had a very close look.
<edit> posted a modified image with added hinge and panel(?) lines.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 02:29:46 am by Arjen »

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #122 on: February 18, 2018, 02:36:50 am »
Very nice work, you certainly have cleaned up the plan wonderfully and allowed us to see the detail clearly.
It still seems a very odd design, with just two DB600/601 engines it would have been quite slow but I guess overall bombload was superior to a single-fuselage twin-engine bomber (assuming both fuselages have a bomb bay).

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #123 on: February 18, 2018, 05:32:28 am »
The space occupied by the original T.9's bomb bay accomodates the Jachtkruiser's main landing gear, I don't think any meaningful bomb load could be located in the remaining space. Some bombs might be carried in the  Jachtkruiser's centre section, but text in the original image ('850L BENZ'  - 850 litres of gasoline) indicates that space would have been used for fuel tanks. That leaves the space between the engines as a possible location for a bomb bay.

Some aspects of this concept may have been less than realistic.

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #124 on: February 18, 2018, 07:19:45 am »
The space occupied by the original T.9's bomb bay accomodates the Jachtkruiser's main landing gear, I don't think any meaningful bomb load could be located in the remaining space. Some bombs might be carried in the  Jachtkruiser's centre section, but text in the original image ('850L BENZ'  - 850 litres of gasoline) indicates that space would have been used for fuel tanks. That leaves the space between the engines as a possible location for a bomb bay.

Some aspects of this concept may have been less than realistic.

IMHO, as well as T.V and T.IX this design has been based on the idea of wing fuel tanks. There were plenty space inside wings, and volume in engine nacelle could be used interchangeable: by additional fuel tank (for interceptor) or for bombs (for bomber). How about such concept?
Anyway, the whole design look to me as quite exotic to be effective. At that time Fokker company has been really inspired by twin boomers, so "zwilling" configuration could be another attempt in same direction?


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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #125 on: February 18, 2018, 08:05:26 am »
I don't see any reason to doubt the drawing and that shows just two tanks of 850l each in the wing centre section either side of the engine nacelle.

I agree that the bomb load has to be in the central nacelle, and a load of three, what? 250Kg bombs? is low. With a crew of pilot, navigator and six gunners its difficult to envisage what mission it was intended for.  The limited tranverse on the nose and lower guns is odd to, it leaves many undefended areas.

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #126 on: February 18, 2018, 08:27:29 am »
Your are right, Schneiderman! Thanks for correction

I'm inattentively seen the top view. Of course, the fuel tanks are located inside the wings.

I don't see any reason to doubt the drawing and that shows just two tanks of 850l each in the wing centre section either side of the engine nacelle.

I agree that the bomb load has to be in the central nacelle, and a load of three, what? 250Kg bombs? is low. With a crew of pilot, navigator and six gunners its difficult to envisage what mission it was intended for.  The limited tranverse on the nose and lower guns is odd to, it leaves many undefended areas.

The whole design of this "air cruiser" seems quite unconventional. Bell "Airacuda" comes to my mind, as an example of concept, that has been interesting, but has been far from the reality. 6 gunners would be suitable for long range bomber, with enough power - but not for such aircraft.
Another example of designers' searches for perfection?
Just imagine this type has been built and put in mass production. Did it has any chances in air combat with Japanese aircraft? I doubt.

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #127 on: February 18, 2018, 08:49:24 am »
The limited tranverse on the nose and lower guns is odd to, it leaves many undefended areas.
The nose seems to be modeled on the Fokker T.5's nose, which was originally intended as a jachtkruiser too. The nose gun's outline matches the T.5's Solothurn gun. This was a big weapon, its size alone would have restricted movement within the nose's limited space - hence the gun's limited traverse. The Solothurn was intended as a long-range offensive weapon, so limited traverse was less of an issue.
The T.9's belly gun installation, apparently adopted in this concept, likewise had limited gun traverse.
Complete T.5/T.9 images can be found here:
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,15830.msg153899.html#msg153899
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 08:55:17 am by Arjen »

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #128 on: February 20, 2018, 05:27:50 am »
The drawing made by Arjen is very close to th one produced
by Frits Gerdessen in Luchtvaart May 1998.

In all the sources I searched, never a 'Ontwerp' number was given for the cruiser aircraft.(design study only)

By the way , It seems that the info on the beeldbank-defensie.nl  must be taken with a pinch of salt.
For exemple , drawing 25 or page 25 shows in fact a Koolhoven 1171 design it seems.
An early contender for the Fokker T.8W

The Fokker C.VIII was a 3 seat recce.aircraft for the LVA.Prototype only.first flight 17.3.1928
Of the Fokker C.VIIIW four intial designs were made ( two in Jan.27 ,one in Feb.27 and one in May 27)
The final version was a 3 seat,parasol wing aircraft for the MLD . First fight 15 Nov.1929.

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Re: Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties
« Reply #129 on: February 20, 2018, 07:06:25 am »
Thank you my dear Lark,

and as I know,the C.VIIIA-W was given the drawing number 11150.

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