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Author Topic: Living in the Future - Dan Raymer autobiography  (Read 11139 times)

Offline AeroFranz

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Re: Living in the Future - Dan Raymer autobiography
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2010, 06:30:25 am »
Hmmm.. link seems to be broken.
The short answer is yes, regardless of whether its "Living in the future" his biography, or "Aircraft Design", his textbook. We must have a thread somewhere about this.
All modern aircraft have four dimensions: span, length, height and politics.   TSR.2 got the first three right - Sir Sydney Camm

Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: Living in the Future - Dan Raymer autobiography
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2010, 08:27:21 am »
It's basically *the* book on preliminary aircraft design. As for price. the ebay sale is a few bucks cheaper than at Amazon, where it's $101.

http://rcm.amazon.com/e/cm?lt1=_blank&bc1=000000&IS2=1&bg1=FFFFFF&fc1=000000&lc1=0000FF&t=upshipcom-20&o=1&p=8&l=as1&m=amazon&f=ifr&md=10FE9736YVPPT7A0FBG2&asins=1563478293
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And so the endless circle of life comes to an end, meaningless and grim. Why did they live, and why did they die? No reason. Two hundred million years of evolution snuffed out, for in the end Nature is horrific and teaches us nothing

Offline mz

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Re: Living in the Future - Dan Raymer autobiography
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2010, 12:39:08 pm »
It's got a lot of rules of thumb and general conservative historical approaches to estimate things. Probably quite useful if you understand what that means - if you want to do something differently, then those rules might not apply. I haven't designed and built aircraft so hard to say.

Offline shockonlip

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Re: Living in the Future - Dan Raymer autobiography
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2010, 04:26:56 pm »
I have it, I'm actually reading it, as I'm trying to learn this myself.
It is good yes! I like Mr. Raymer's relaxed style and pace.

To try and quote Kevin Bowcutt from one of his recent hypersonic
online classes, not exact quote, but what I recall as essentially what he said:
"Raymer's book is THE modern treatment of conceptual design of aircraft, but it
doesn't have anything on hypersonic aircraft design."

Kevin then indicated he would like fix this some day by writing his own book
on hypersonic aircraft design.

My comment: actually Raymer has a few pages on hypersonic aircraft - but not much.
Nowhere near what Kevin and guys like Paul Czysz and others talk about on that.

Also, Kevin's comments were before Leland Nicolai from Lockheed's new book came out
published by AIAA: "Fundamentals of Aircraft and Airship Design: Volume I--Aircraft Design".

If you're really interested you should get these other books as you can.

I also bought Nicolai's book as well.
You should keep a lookout for other similar books from: Ed Heinemann and
Alexander Lippisch and others!

Offline AeroFranz

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Re: Living in the Future - Dan Raymer autobiography
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2010, 08:41:27 am »
I also bought Nicolai's book as well.


I have his old book - do you know if the new edition has added much? i guess there is an airship section, but i wonder if it's worth the expense.
All modern aircraft have four dimensions: span, length, height and politics.   TSR.2 got the first three right - Sir Sydney Camm

Offline shockonlip

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Re: Living in the Future - Dan Raymer autobiography
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2010, 01:32:57 pm »
I also bought Nicolai's book as well.


I have his old book - do you know if the new edition has added much? i guess there is an airship section, but i wonder if it's worth the expense.

Are you asking about Nicolai's book?

Assuming you are, I do not have one of Nicolai's older books, but I have browsed one of them in the past
in a used bookstore.

First off, Nicolai's new book is very large, around 900 pages. It is only Volume I,
entitled: "Fundamentals of Aircraft and Airship Design; Volume I - Aircraft Design.

Airship design is NOT part of Volume I.

Leland Nicolai's co-author is Grant Carichner, who is another extremely experienced
senior Lockheed designer who seems to have worked on almost every cool Lockheed
airplane in the past 50 years or so (from his bio. in the book).

From what I can tell, after browsing my copy, there is no hypersonics in volume I
either. Maybe they're waiting for Volume II, I don't know.

There is subsonic and supersonic aircraft design stuff. For example, I am fairly
familiar with inlets. There is some stuff on inlets but fairly basic stuff. I guess
the key word on the title is "Fundamentals".

After a browsing session with my copy, it seems like a hard book to get a feel for,
but again, after I have read it, perhaps I will feel it is really fantastic. Perhaps
this means you should find a copy to inspect before you take the plunge.

I am actually hoping it will teach me about areas I don't know much about currently.
I suspect that it will do that quite well.

The math seems well presented and quite understandable. So far, everything seems quite
achieveable.

I think it would also therefore be useful as a quick reference.

That's my take on it now.

Unfrtunately, Amazon does not have browse book enabled for it yet. If you need it, I'd
be happy to list or scan the TOC for you.

Since they got some publicity from the Aurora rumors for this book, I was hoping they'd
have a design case study on the blackbird or D-21, or whatever, or the Mach 5 concept
we all know Lockheed was studying awhile back. But no such luck. What would really be
cool is if there were design insights with historical anecdotes in the book, on these famous
older programs. Kind of like John D. Anderson does with his books on aerodynamics and
compressible flow, where he also teaches the history of the technology. Like it is fascinating
to me that the technology of supersonic fight was mostly in place in the 1930's.

Offline AeroFranz

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Re: Living in the Future - Dan Raymer autobiography
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2010, 02:12:50 pm »
Thanks, that's actually a lot of good info. Wow, 900 pages and it's just volume 1...granted, his previous book was printed fairly large.

Luckily i will be at a conference in early January and should be able to peruse a copy at the AIAA booth. I agree that a good primer on supersonics/hypersonics is sorely needed...maybe in vol II? I'm actually curious about the airship section. I did a lot of research recently on blimps and could not find a good design book, I even got myself a reprint of a seminal 1927 book for lack of better material!
All modern aircraft have four dimensions: span, length, height and politics.   TSR.2 got the first three right - Sir Sydney Camm

Offline shockonlip

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Re: Living in the Future - Dan Raymer autobiography
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2010, 04:00:58 pm »
...
 I'm actually curious about the airship section. I did a lot of research recently on blimps and could not find a good design book, I even got myself a reprint of a seminal 1927 book for lack of better material!

We have American Blimp here in Portland OR.

A few years ago, I met their chief engineer at a bookstore.
We had a nice conversation. He offered me a tour of their plant,
which I took. They are actually very close to where I work.

He may still be around.

Want me to ask him anything for you?

Offline AeroFranz

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Re: Living in the Future - Dan Raymer autobiography
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2010, 06:53:23 am »
That was very nice of him to give you a tour. I don't have any specific questions, rather I was wondering what design textbooks he would recommend for someone who wanted to do a conceptual sizing of a blimp. Sort of "Raymer-for blimps". As far as i know, the two best references out there are

-"Airship Design" by Charles Burgess (1927!)
-"Airship Technology" by Khoury, Cambridge series

Both fall well short of giving the empirical equations required for sizing or even work through an example. But maybe Nicolai's vol. II will fill the gap?
All modern aircraft have four dimensions: span, length, height and politics.   TSR.2 got the first three right - Sir Sydney Camm

Offline shockonlip

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Re: Living in the Future - Dan Raymer autobiography
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2010, 02:21:51 pm »
I'll see what I can find out.