NATO Basic Military Requirements (NBMR)
- Thread starter hesham
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Ah, thanks Hesham. So those "sideways mounted engines with sideways facing intakes" refers to the podded (and vector-nozzled) lift-jets. Now I get it.
Addendum to AGARD Report No.710 Special Course on V/STOL Aerodynamics: An Assessement of European Jet Lift Aircraft, RS Williams, BAe Kingston, 5.3 Subsonic Transports, pg. 3 http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a155604.pdf
hesham said:
Addendum to AGARD Report No.710 Special Course on V/STOL Aerodynamics: An Assessement of European Jet Lift Aircraft, RS Williams, BAe Kingston, 5.3 Subsonic Transports, pg. 3 http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a155604.pdf
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NBMR.4: Chris Gibson's On ATLAS Shoulders.
The good reason for contradictions in tales of all NBMRs is that we approach them assuming today's processes of priced open tenders, but t'was not thus, then. CJG enhances our access to interplay between National and NATO Requirements.
You will find other persons writing that HS681, Do.31 and others were "designed to NBMR.4".
Nothing was "designed" to NBMR.4; little was "designed" to NBMR-anything. The enormous lists of NBMR.3 and 4 "submissions" here in Designation Systems are misleading. NATO had no money, no Procurement Executive, no decision-making Authority. Its Nations did/do. Its Experts in Working Groups "promulgated" NBMRs. None was ever funded. NATO guessed that NBMR.3 (VTOL strike) would lead to 800 sales...to Nations. Until the AWACS/Geilenkirchen Unit, NATO itself had nothing: it was a Battle Manager, not a procurer.
This is what happened on the Light Tactical Transport: it lost its verticality and was renamed C-130.
UK Theatre Transport OR.351 issued 3/61; 5/61 bids included HS681, "selected" 12/61, not then funded: STOL vectored Pegasus+ VTOL Option RB.162 pods.
NBMR.4 issued early-1961; responses in 22/11/61: Light VTOL Transport. People sent in slim marketing brochures, not Bids - no prices, because NATO was interested, not in R&D but in the art of the techno-possible. So: tiltwings, folding rotors, turboprop...surprised no Wing-in-Ground-Effect. Geek heaven. Abandoned 11/62.
Firms competed against themselves - Dornier on BAC.208 as well as an outline of their then-thinking on schemes begun in 1959. Shorts were in 3 brochures: one was an Unlight variant of Belfast. HSAL with DHCanada (to be Buffalo), plus sending in a copy of a HS681 brochure, although evidently non-compliant with Light, and a DH/Bell/Nord Avn./Avs.Fairey scheme, HS129, which Brits report as "winner". BAC also failed to understand Light and put in a blown flap licenced C-130, competing with a collaborative new scheme.
Redefined Lighter, Shorter as NBMR.22, brochures submitted, process abandoned 6/3/63. Italy solo 5/63 funded its perception of the "winner" as FIAT G.222 (Darts+RB.162 pods). That is not the machine eventually morphing into C-27J.
FRG funded Dornier Do.31 2/62. UK/FRG made a Memorandum of Understanding 13/4/64, pooling all extant V/STOL (rigs, schemes). Its Report, 11/65 melded Do.31 and HS129 as DoHS-1 (2xSpey, 12 or 14 RB.162), then DoHS-2 (Spey+ 12 RB.189/XJ99). Lapsed. Dornier/FRG persevered with schemes as Do.131, Do.231.
VFW eventually won FRG's Light VTOL Transport, with CH-53G; RAF won the Chinooks it had sought since 1961.
The good reason for contradictions in tales of all NBMRs is that we approach them assuming today's processes of priced open tenders, but t'was not thus, then. CJG enhances our access to interplay between National and NATO Requirements.
You will find other persons writing that HS681, Do.31 and others were "designed to NBMR.4".
Nothing was "designed" to NBMR.4; little was "designed" to NBMR-anything. The enormous lists of NBMR.3 and 4 "submissions" here in Designation Systems are misleading. NATO had no money, no Procurement Executive, no decision-making Authority. Its Nations did/do. Its Experts in Working Groups "promulgated" NBMRs. None was ever funded. NATO guessed that NBMR.3 (VTOL strike) would lead to 800 sales...to Nations. Until the AWACS/Geilenkirchen Unit, NATO itself had nothing: it was a Battle Manager, not a procurer.
This is what happened on the Light Tactical Transport: it lost its verticality and was renamed C-130.
UK Theatre Transport OR.351 issued 3/61; 5/61 bids included HS681, "selected" 12/61, not then funded: STOL vectored Pegasus+ VTOL Option RB.162 pods.
NBMR.4 issued early-1961; responses in 22/11/61: Light VTOL Transport. People sent in slim marketing brochures, not Bids - no prices, because NATO was interested, not in R&D but in the art of the techno-possible. So: tiltwings, folding rotors, turboprop...surprised no Wing-in-Ground-Effect. Geek heaven. Abandoned 11/62.
Firms competed against themselves - Dornier on BAC.208 as well as an outline of their then-thinking on schemes begun in 1959. Shorts were in 3 brochures: one was an Unlight variant of Belfast. HSAL with DHCanada (to be Buffalo), plus sending in a copy of a HS681 brochure, although evidently non-compliant with Light, and a DH/Bell/Nord Avn./Avs.Fairey scheme, HS129, which Brits report as "winner". BAC also failed to understand Light and put in a blown flap licenced C-130, competing with a collaborative new scheme.
Redefined Lighter, Shorter as NBMR.22, brochures submitted, process abandoned 6/3/63. Italy solo 5/63 funded its perception of the "winner" as FIAT G.222 (Darts+RB.162 pods). That is not the machine eventually morphing into C-27J.
FRG funded Dornier Do.31 2/62. UK/FRG made a Memorandum of Understanding 13/4/64, pooling all extant V/STOL (rigs, schemes). Its Report, 11/65 melded Do.31 and HS129 as DoHS-1 (2xSpey, 12 or 14 RB.162), then DoHS-2 (Spey+ 12 RB.189/XJ99). Lapsed. Dornier/FRG persevered with schemes as Do.131, Do.231.
VFW eventually won FRG's Light VTOL Transport, with CH-53G; RAF won the Chinooks it had sought since 1961.
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NBMR.3: Flight 7/6/62 has contenders by then reduced to Mirage IIIV, Fokker/Republic D.24, BAC 584, P.1154. Others have it that by then the Reqt. had been split, with NBMR.3a (supersonic) "won" by Mirage IIIV and P.1154; NBMR.3b by VAK-191B (melding FW1262+FIAT G.95/6)
While HSAL's 10/1/62 P.1154 Bid was a weighty 3 volumes...there was nothing there, nor in any other "Bids", on which a Public Procurer could base a price or time. Decisions in those days were made on WAGs (wild-ass guess) until JFK's Sec.Def McNamara (RSM) introduced such novel notions as fixed prices. UK's Defence Chief Scientific Advisor would write of frustration, trying to interest RSM in P.1127, though he “never received a real plan (how it) was being managed (e.g: engine) overhaul (life. He) was not going to (buy without) the kind of detailed plan he was demanding” S.Zuckerman,Monkeys,P268.
Then and as the Donald has declared, now, US was/is NATO's paymaster. In 1962 RSM had less interest in NBMR.3 “bids” than in getting more bang for his buck at home. So he chose: 3/62: USN/USAF common F-4s, 12/62: F-111s; chop for B-70, B-58B, Skybolt, (12/63) X-20 Dyna-Soar. NATO inc. USAFE were well kitted through 1970 on F-4C/F-104G. So he took no* interest in VTOL until 2/65**, when he funded a share of EWR/Republic AVS, seen as their candidate successor.
With no magic NATO/US money tree, France persevered with Mirage IIIV, solo, to 11/66; UK, P.1154A to 2/65; FRG, VJ101D to 4/64, then joint AVS to 1/68 (RSM's last deletion); FRG/Italy, VAK-191B to 2/68. So, why were they all chopped?
NATO Ministers made 2 acts of faith and hope:
- that runways would be dibbed by HE, not deleted by AW. So: admit Long-TOL Tornado, F-111E/F; and:
- that CTOL types could become reliable, operable by conscripts/Reservists, such that affordable quantities could be bought - impossible with, say AVS: VG+VTOL.
(7/6/17: * "no" interest is unfair: 21/5/62 he agreed to part-fund R&D, and 16/1/63 to buy a share of 1965's Kestrel TE Sqdn; he allowed MWDP to part-fund BS.100 R&D, 6/61-12/63).
(18/12/23: ** Overscan's AVS finds clarify: multiple US+FRG Studies, then 14/3/67: EWR Fairchild Intnl GmbH A400S, System Definition, RR/Allison/M.A.N.Turbo XJ99: to supplement F-104G/F-4C/D; paused 1/68, canx. 19/3/68: US did F-15, 3x NATO did Tornado).
While HSAL's 10/1/62 P.1154 Bid was a weighty 3 volumes...there was nothing there, nor in any other "Bids", on which a Public Procurer could base a price or time. Decisions in those days were made on WAGs (wild-ass guess) until JFK's Sec.Def McNamara (RSM) introduced such novel notions as fixed prices. UK's Defence Chief Scientific Advisor would write of frustration, trying to interest RSM in P.1127, though he “never received a real plan (how it) was being managed (e.g: engine) overhaul (life. He) was not going to (buy without) the kind of detailed plan he was demanding” S.Zuckerman,Monkeys,P268.
Then and as the Donald has declared, now, US was/is NATO's paymaster. In 1962 RSM had less interest in NBMR.3 “bids” than in getting more bang for his buck at home. So he chose: 3/62: USN/USAF common F-4s, 12/62: F-111s; chop for B-70, B-58B, Skybolt, (12/63) X-20 Dyna-Soar. NATO inc. USAFE were well kitted through 1970 on F-4C/F-104G. So he took no* interest in VTOL until 2/65**, when he funded a share of EWR/Republic AVS, seen as their candidate successor.
With no magic NATO/US money tree, France persevered with Mirage IIIV, solo, to 11/66; UK, P.1154A to 2/65; FRG, VJ101D to 4/64, then joint AVS to 1/68 (RSM's last deletion); FRG/Italy, VAK-191B to 2/68. So, why were they all chopped?
NATO Ministers made 2 acts of faith and hope:
- that runways would be dibbed by HE, not deleted by AW. So: admit Long-TOL Tornado, F-111E/F; and:
- that CTOL types could become reliable, operable by conscripts/Reservists, such that affordable quantities could be bought - impossible with, say AVS: VG+VTOL.
(7/6/17: * "no" interest is unfair: 21/5/62 he agreed to part-fund R&D, and 16/1/63 to buy a share of 1965's Kestrel TE Sqdn; he allowed MWDP to part-fund BS.100 R&D, 6/61-12/63).
(18/12/23: ** Overscan's AVS finds clarify: multiple US+FRG Studies, then 14/3/67: EWR Fairchild Intnl GmbH A400S, System Definition, RR/Allison/M.A.N.Turbo XJ99: to supplement F-104G/F-4C/D; paused 1/68, canx. 19/3/68: US did F-15, 3x NATO did Tornado).
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NBMR 25 was according to Friedman the NATO requirement for a short range ASW escort, at least 24 knot top speed with an operational radius of 3,000 nautical miles at 18 knots.
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With regards as to NBMR-3, the requirement was originally for a supersonic VTOL interceptor before it was modified into the two stage (subsonic/supersonic) requirement for VSTOL strike/reconnaissance aircraft.
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As for the NMBR-1 the most interesting contender is obviously the least known: the SIPA S.800. Does anybody have any information on that project?
Allegedly there was also SIPA S.801. In the post: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/sipa-designations.15974/#post-312978 both S.800 and S.801 are mentioned:
Presumably "fitted with Hipano-Suiza" is about engines for the S.801.
If S.800 was to have one Orpheus (as other NMBR-1 projects), then probably the "Hispano-Suiza" engine must have been the R.800 (or its derivative) and I would rather think that the S.801 was to have two such engines. Any comments?
Piotr
Allegedly there was also SIPA S.801. In the post: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/sipa-designations.15974/#post-312978 both S.800 and S.801 are mentioned:
Presumably "fitted with Hipano-Suiza" is about engines for the S.801.
If S.800 was to have one Orpheus (as other NMBR-1 projects), then probably the "Hispano-Suiza" engine must have been the R.800 (or its derivative) and I would rather think that the S.801 was to have two such engines. Any comments?
Piotr
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From Pegase 2011,
we can add;
Avro Canada ?
Breguet Br.1115
Focke Wulf FW.1161
Fiat G95/6
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Rather than starting a new thread, does anyone know if the Defence Planning Questionnaires (DPQ) are ever declassified and made available anywhere? I think JFC Fuller posted a 1959 one in another thread.
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Some of the earlier NBMR numbers missing in that Global Security list can be found in a 28 Feb 1962 NATO document - Standing Committee: Status of NATO Research, Development and Production Projects.
Unfortunately, NBMR-22 is the last number listed so the 'missing' NBMR-25 and NBMR-35 remain so. Still, more than half of this 148-page document is made up of as-yet unnumbered NBMR projects and proposals. Some of these are mentioned in the Global Security number list but do not match the listed order (in other words, no useful suppositions can be made as to later numbers).
A summary of the known 'missing numbers' follows:
NBMR-8 - Data Handling System for Small Ships
NBMR established 08 March 1961
NBMR proposed by CICHAN (Commander-in-Chief Channel)
NBMR-12 - Main Battle Tanks (Short Term)
NBMR established 06 Sept 1961
NBMR proposed by SACEUR
NBMR-14 - Very Low Altitude Surface/Air Weapon for Local Defense
NBMR established 19 Sept 1961
SACEUR favouring FIM-43 Redeye missile
NBMR-15 - Anti-Tank Weapons
NBMR established 12 Oct 1961
NBMR-16 - Air/Surface Weapon (Short Range) (ASAP)
NBMR established 28 Nov 196l
Considering AS-30 and Bullpup
NBMR-19 - Self-Propelled 105 mm Gun
NBMR established 25 Jan 1962
Project Military Advisor (PMA): SACEUR
NBMR-20 - ASW Ocean Escort Vessel (ASAP)
NBMR established 25 Jan 1962
03 Oct 1960 - SACLANT proposes NBMRs for a NATO ASW Coastal Escort and a NATO ASW Ocean Escort.
(RDC 7/10Ö/I, 12 Oct 50}
25 Oct 1960 - CINCHAN proposes an NBMR.
02 Nov 1960 - SACEUR proposes an NBMR for escort vessels.
08 Dec 1960 - SACLANT proposes NBMR for a NATO DE (Ocean Escort).
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