Register here

Author Topic: Low-powered WWII-era combat aircraft?  (Read 26756 times)

Offline cluttonfred

  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 1302
    • Eric Clutton's classic homebuilt FRED and more!
Low-powered WWII-era combat aircraft?
« on: April 15, 2009, 09:55:28 am »
In discussing the proposed Tachikawa Ki-72...an improved Ki-36? I commented that "I can't think of any WWII aircraft of under 500 hp that was still successful in an armed combat role by the time the U.S. entered the war.  An exception in the very specialized niche of naval spotter and ASW aircraft might be the Vought Kingfisher."  There is also Soviet prototype that is on the tip of my tongue--a twin-engine, fixed-gear cheaper Sturmovik of very simple lines and construction...somebody will know what I mean.

So, can anyone suggest any WWII-era prototypes or projects that meet those criteria or prove me wrong by pointing out operational aircraft that I forgot?  By "armed combat role" I don't mean liason or observation, no Grasshoppers or Storchs or night intruders in trainers like the PO-2, I mean aircraft of under 500 hp but designed for attacking air or ground targets with guns, cannons, bombs, rockets or other ordnance.
*******
Matthew Long, Editor
cluttonfred.info
A site for builders, owners and fans of Eric Clutton's FRED
and other safe, simple, affordable homebuilt aircraft

Offline Retrofit

  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 534
Re: Low-powered WWII-era combat aircraft?
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2009, 10:09:59 am »
I think the Caudron C-714 with its 450hp Renault engine responds to this critera, but its operational history has been quite short, but *rather* successful: Around 40 delivered to the French (in fact Polish) fighter unit GC I/145; 12 confirmed air victories between June 8th and 12th 1940....sorry before the time the U.S. entered the war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C.714
« Last Edit: April 15, 2009, 10:17:24 am by Retrofit »

Offline Avimimus

  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 1857
Re: Low-powered WWII-era combat aircraft?
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2009, 10:28:19 am »
FW-189 if you allow for the fact that it had two engines.

Offline Apophenia

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 2048
Re: Low-powered WWII-era combat aircraft?
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2009, 01:14:32 pm »
Another catapult spotter: the Fairey Seafox Mk I (395hp Napier Rapier)

Offline borovik

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 777
Re: Low-powered WWII-era combat aircraft?
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2009, 02:01:05 pm »
There is also Soviet prototype that is on the tip of my tongue--a twin-engine, fixed-gear cheaper Sturmovik of very simple lines and construction...somebody will know what I mean.
Perhaps it is a light attack plane D. Tomashevich Pegasus.
It was assumed that the plane will be cheaper and easier to manufacture and management. Engine M-11-dependable and unpretentious, well-developed and widely extended in the Soviet aviation.
Armament UB (12.7 mm) + NA-37 (37mm) or two aerogun VYa-23 (23mm).
In the night- bomber version : UB (12.7 mm) + 2 FAB-250 or  FAB-500, for this purpose was proposed by biplane option (additional removable wing parasol)

Offline AeroFranz

  • Aerospace Engineer
  • Top Contributor
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 2102
Re: Low-powered WWII-era combat aircraft?
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2009, 02:18:41 pm »
The fourth picture looks A LOT like the armored pod of the FW.189C
All modern aircraft have four dimensions: span, length, height and politics.   TSR.2 got the first three right - Sir Sydney Camm

Offline borovik

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 777
Re: Low-powered WWII-era combat aircraft?
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2009, 02:27:58 pm »
Another more exotic mass attack plane project proposed A. Moskalev "LT" (M-11),
 designated "SAM-23" / first with this name / june 1942.
  "LT" -letayuschaya tanketka=flying tankette
Armament: 2 x 20 SHVAK 2 x 7,62 SHKAS, 4 x RS-82 or RS-132
In April 1942 Moskalev adapted to the role of a light attack plane flight
SAM-14 with the motor M-11F, or MV-4 output of 140 hp
Armament: 2 x 7.62 SHKAS; 4 x FAB-100

In addition, the same engine M-11 light attack plane was scheduled to Yakovlev's OKB- Design Bureau, based on the Yak-6 and UT-1b; UT-2MV.
More about ten projects were on the program of "Ivanov"
sources:Aviation World magazine #4/99; 1/02

Offline AeroFranz

  • Aerospace Engineer
  • Top Contributor
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 2102
Re: Low-powered WWII-era combat aircraft?
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2009, 03:08:07 pm »
Very interesting...but what was the purpose of the long, ground dragging 'skid'?
All modern aircraft have four dimensions: span, length, height and politics.   TSR.2 got the first three right - Sir Sydney Camm

Offline cluttonfred

  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 1302
    • Eric Clutton's classic homebuilt FRED and more!
Re: Low-powered WWII-era combat aircraft?
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2009, 12:44:01 am »
Borovik, yes, the Tomashevich Pegasus is exactly what I had in mind, thanks very much.

Now that you mention Moskalev, the Moskalev SAM-13 push-pull twin-boom fighter with two 236hp Renault Bengali engines meets the criteria, too.  With it's problematic landing gear and poor take-off performance it never made it out of the prototype stage, one one can imagine that it might have made a good ground attack aircraft with fixed gear and a larger wing.  The engines fore and aft would have helped protect the pilot, though of course bailing out would have been interesting.

I'd also be very interested in learning more about the Moskalev SAM-14 or SAM-23, both seem intriguing.  I imagine that the skid and wheel on the SAM-23 was some sort of terrain-following device for low-level flight?  The SAM-23 seems to have a relationship to the SAM-13, and the SAM-14 is a rare choice of a shoulder-wing design for a monoplane combat aircraft.  Please do tell us more if you have any more to share.
*******
Matthew Long, Editor
cluttonfred.info
A site for builders, owners and fans of Eric Clutton's FRED
and other safe, simple, affordable homebuilt aircraft

Offline cluttonfred

  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 1302
    • Eric Clutton's classic homebuilt FRED and more!
Re: Low-powered WWII-era combat aircraft?
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2009, 12:47:57 am »
FW-189 if you allow for the fact that it had two engines.

While the FW189 Uhu is one of my favorite German designs, I'd say no in this context as the two engines combined were over 900 hp.
*******
Matthew Long, Editor
cluttonfred.info
A site for builders, owners and fans of Eric Clutton's FRED
and other safe, simple, affordable homebuilt aircraft

Offline Cobra Kebab

  • CLEARANCE: Confidential
  • *
  • Posts: 31
Re: Low-powered WWII-era combat aircraft?
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2009, 12:41:20 pm »
What was the horsepower output of the Fleet Shadower?

Offline AeroFranz

  • Aerospace Engineer
  • Top Contributor
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 2102
Re: Low-powered WWII-era combat aircraft?
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2009, 12:46:41 pm »
4 x 130 hp for both the Airspeed A.S.39 and G.A.L. 38 according to quick search on wikipedia
All modern aircraft have four dimensions: span, length, height and politics.   TSR.2 got the first three right - Sir Sydney Camm

Offline Avimimus

  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 1857
Re: Low-powered WWII-era combat aircraft?
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2009, 01:02:59 pm »
Borovik, can you tell us about the skid / pole / tail wheel?  ;)

I've checked this thread about fifteen times waiting to find out how it was supposed to work.  :D

Offline AeroFranz

  • Aerospace Engineer
  • Top Contributor
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 2102
Re: Low-powered WWII-era combat aircraft?
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2009, 01:18:06 pm »
I remember seeing something of the sort on a 'paper' german jet-powered flying bomb. A sketch depicted the bomb flying over water, which at least has the advantage of staying flat! ;)
Maybe Justo knows what I'm talking about.

I think the skid is connected to the control surfaces and mechanically commands the elevator to respond to changes in the elevation of the terrain.
All modern aircraft have four dimensions: span, length, height and politics.   TSR.2 got the first three right - Sir Sydney Camm

Offline GTX

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 2555
  • All hail the God of Frustration!!!
    • Beyond The Sprues
Re: Low-powered WWII-era combat aircraft?
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2009, 01:55:45 pm »
I think the skid is connected to the control surfaces and mechanically commands the elevator to respond to changes in the elevation of the terrain.

So an early form of terrain following (nix radar) - interesting if that is indeed the purpose.

Regards,

Greg
« Last Edit: April 17, 2009, 01:57:26 pm by GTX »