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Author Topic: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"  (Read 20268 times)

Offline Silencer1

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2010, 12:28:41 am »
Hi!

[/quote]
Suffix "R" for Rosatelli
[/quote]

Just forget this designer, as FIAT' chief.
Although - why there is no prefix in aircrat' name - CR is "Cacia Rosatelli", "BR" - "Bombardiere Rosatelli"...

And this - just "R". Is there any other "R" designations?

« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 01:27:04 pm by Silencer1 »

Offline MC72

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2010, 03:23:57 am »
Nice. Cowlings as per G.57?

Thanks for the CR.25 correction. I forgot that the CR.30 was a biplane leading to the CR.32  :P
Yes, Fiat proposed a A.83 "Vortice" for the Fiat G.57, and they studied a cowling for this radial engine.

Saludos
MC72
« Last Edit: December 17, 2010, 05:10:55 am by MC72 »
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Offline Skybolt

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2010, 06:01:53 am »
Only R because it was a multipurpose design.

Offline Pepe Rezende

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2010, 04:34:24 am »
There's a gap between the CR 42 and the CR 44...

Cheers

Pepe

Offline Silencer1

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2010, 04:53:04 am »
Hi, Skybolt!

Only R because it was a multipurpose design.

Thank you for clarification. By the way, FIAT comapany maintain curious designation system, which incorporate first letter of chief designer's surname into aircraft index. Rare example of designation - I ould only remember something similar for Macchi-Castoldi.


Offline MC72

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2010, 01:39:53 pm »
There's a gap between the CR 42 and the CR 44...

Cheers

Pepe

Must be because sometimes the numbering was assigned according to the engine
and in this case the engine used was the Fiat A.44 RC15/45 of 2400 hp. derived from the older Fiat A.40 RC
(Source: Aerofan Nş100)

Saludos
MC72
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Offline MC72

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2010, 12:59:26 pm »
Specifications Fiat R.23

General characteristics

Crew: 2 or 3
Length: 14,56 m
Wingspan: 18,00 m
Height: 3,90 m
Wing area: 49,00 m² (527.431 ft²)
Empty weight: 6.300 kg
Loaded weight: 2.372 kg
Max takeoff weight: 8.672kg
Powerplant: 2× Fiat radial engine, 1.250 Hp.

Performance
Maximum speed: 560 km/h
Manimum speed: 140 km/h
Range: n/a  km
Service ceiling:  n/a m
Rate of climb: n/a m/s
Wing loading: 117 kg/m²
Mass/power: 3,47 kg/Hp

Armament
Guns: 3 × 12,5 mm Breda Safat with 350 rpg
2 × 20 mm Mauser  cannons with 250 .
Bombs: n/a

Saludos
MC72

« Last Edit: December 25, 2010, 04:31:38 pm by MC72 »
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Offline redstar72

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2010, 07:45:18 am »
FIAT comapany maintain curious designation system, which incorporate first letter of chief designer's surname into aircraft index. Rare example of designation - I ould only remember something similar for Macchi-Castoldi.

Actually typical system for Italian aircraft: CANT Z (Z for Zappata), Breda-Zappata (BZ), Savoia-Marchetti (SM) and then Savoia-Frati (SF)...
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Alexander

Offline airman

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #23 on: December 25, 2010, 12:02:05 pm »
Specifications Fiat R.23

General characteristics

Crew: 2
Length: 14,56 m
Wingspan: 18,00 m
Height: 3,90 m
Wing area: 49,00 m² (527.431 ft²)
Empty weight: 6.300 kg
Loaded weight: 2.372 kg
Max takeoff weight: 8.672kg
Powerplant: 2× Fiat radial engine, 1.250 Hp.

Performance
Maximum speed: 560 km/h
Manimum speed: 140 km/h
Range: n/a  km
Service ceiling:  n/a m
Rate of climb: n/a m/s
Wing loading: 117 kg/m²
Mass/power: 3,47 kg/Hp

Armament
Guns: 3 × 12,5 mm Breda Safat with 350 rpg
2 × 20 mm Mauser  cannons with 250 .
Bombs: n/a

Saludos
MC72


Thanks MC72 !  :o
But Fiat of 1250 Hp are awesome of Fiat Br20bis or are a DB licenced ! ???
Because i could think that Fiat R.23 was a development of Fiat CR.25  ! :)
« Last Edit: December 25, 2010, 12:06:20 pm by airman »
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Offline Arjen

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #24 on: December 25, 2010, 01:24:12 pm »
Jane's Fighting Aircraft of World War II, 1989 mentions a Fiat A.82 R.C.40 radial engine of 1250 hp. and a Fiat A.82 R.C.42 of 1400 hp.

Offline MC72

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #25 on: December 25, 2010, 04:06:09 pm »
Thanks MC72 !  :o
But Fiat of 1250 Hp are awesome of Fiat Br20bis or are a DB licenced ! ???
Because i could think that Fiat R.23 was a development of Fiat CR.25  ! :)
Quote
Jane's Fighting Aircraft of World War II, 1989 mentions a Fiat A.82 R.C.40 radial engine of 1250 hp. and a Fiat A.82 R.C.42 of 1400 hp.

I'm not sure if the Cr.25 Fiat has been the basis for the development of the Fiat R.23, there are some dimensional and weight differences, which suggest a new development.

Fiat  BR.20 M later effectively was develop in a new variant called BR.20bis with engines two Fiat A.82 RC.32 of 1250 hp Each...... I found a photo of BR.20bis (Source: Profile 110) and watching the new power plant in this release, suggest A close relationship between the A.82 and A.83, externally are similar with they cowlings in addition to its power.

It's a curious coincidence in two Rosatelli projects; Could be the same engine (A.82 and A.83)? extrapolate this solution used in the BR.20bis drive to a new and more aerodynamic cells may well be a logical path followed by the office of Rosatelli for the R.23.

Saludos
MC72
« Last Edit: December 25, 2010, 05:36:41 pm by MC72 »
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Offline airman

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2010, 06:13:25 am »
Thanks MC72 !  :)
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Offline Skybolt

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2010, 07:12:16 am »
Quote
Must be because sometimes the numbering was assigned according to the engine
and in this case the engine used was the Fiat A.44 RC15/45 of 2400 hp. derived from the older Fiat A.40 RC
Ok, folks, I'd ought to do this since some time now: as the author of the Aerofan artilcle on CR-44, I have to correct the matters here. The following infos emerged from a visit in the Aeronautica archives in Rome just weeks after the Aerofan article was published, so forgive.  The Fiat A.44 and the FIAT A.40 aren't related, i.e. the former isn't an evolution of the latter... The A.44 was a derivative of the A.38 by Ing. Fessia (Chief of the Engine Development Office chez FIAT). After the failure of the A.38 as THE 1000 HP liquid-cooled engine, Fessia had the idea of using the 8-cylinders bank of the A.38 to produce an H engine (four banks for a total of 32 cylinders). Initially the desgn was called A.42, then renamed A.44. The A.40 was developed as an alternative to the A.42 (A.44), FIAT was committed to bag this one, and was an X-engine  with 24 cylinders. The designer was Ing. Dante Giacosa, that after the war succeeded Fessia and went on to become the principal designer for FIAT cars. It was rated on paper at 1900 HPs. The only two known and confirmed projects intended to be powered by the A.44 are the CR.44 and the BR.44, a light bomber, both from mid-1941. No design is known to be powered by the A.40. Both the A.40 and the A.42(44) were started in late 1940, after the debacle of the A.38, and both were intended as successors to the DB.601-605. More on this in ISP.... including drawings.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 08:48:48 am by Skybolt »

Offline Arjen

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2010, 07:50:36 am »
This is from Herschel Smith's "A History of Aircraft Piston Engines", Sunflower University Press, 1981.
Quote
After the war, Italy experienced a resurgence of national vigor that, at times, took some improbable directions. One of these was Fiat's development of its A-38 R/C 15-45, an inverted V-16 of 2117 cu in. (34.7 L). It probably never flew. It gave to Italy the strange distinction of being the last to build both a separate-cylinder and a castblock liquid-cooled engine.

According to the same book, Fiat's A 42 R/C 42 was a 1250 hp, two-row, 18-cylinder engine with cylinders as used in Fiat's two-row, 14-cylinder A 80, but with more cooling fin area.

Offline Skybolt

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Re: Fiat R.23 twin-engine fighter monoplane project: an Italian "Zerstörer"
« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2010, 09:25:54 am »
Wrong.... the A.42 was the original designation of the A.44. And the A.38 is hardly post-war, the original project is from 1937. Both the A.40 and the A.44 were still fully funded at the end of 1942, last time we have the complete funding status for experimental engine types. BTW, the A.44 was a real monster, weighting one ton and a half. After the war, FIAT completely exited the piston engine market, except for maintenance and completing some RA 1050 (DB.605).